I use a seeker design where 5 tons cargo is replaced with 5 Type 1 docking clamps. Then you can blister on 5 mining launches. The big ship can go surveying for new prospects or move ores and supplies between the main and the belt. When it is time to move on all the fleas can jump on and jump with the mothership.
Okay, say your group wants to sell their starship...
- Thread starter Galadrion
- Start date
Yes, lots and lots of options have been added to the game since the Type S and its Seeker variant were designed.
The ship exists to fulfill that trope of the solitary space miner. Yes, successful mining operations are corporations with fleets of specialized vessels. That's not a player character concept.
Likewise, the Type S you get from mustering out of the scout service is specifically a detached duty vessel, not the personal possession of the now detached duty Scout. So that's why the scout service provides all those facilities for it, there's no mortgage, and you can't sell it. There are lots of scout/couriers that are not part of detached duty program, whether purpose built or sold off by the service.
If the players want a scout/courier that belongs to them and can be sold, they get a mortgage and don't get the free servicing at the scout bases, because the ship is no longer part of the Scout service.
Like the seeker and it's indie prospector trope, the Type S is designed to provide a "we have a space ship to get from place to place that doesn't require us to worry about space ship level expenses" option. It's big enough for your typical 4 PC group, it's J2 so you have some travel options, and it's streamlined and comes with an air/raft. Everything a small group of vagabonds need.
The ship exists to fulfill that trope of the solitary space miner. Yes, successful mining operations are corporations with fleets of specialized vessels. That's not a player character concept.
Likewise, the Type S you get from mustering out of the scout service is specifically a detached duty vessel, not the personal possession of the now detached duty Scout. So that's why the scout service provides all those facilities for it, there's no mortgage, and you can't sell it. There are lots of scout/couriers that are not part of detached duty program, whether purpose built or sold off by the service.
If the players want a scout/courier that belongs to them and can be sold, they get a mortgage and don't get the free servicing at the scout bases, because the ship is no longer part of the Scout service.
Like the seeker and it's indie prospector trope, the Type S is designed to provide a "we have a space ship to get from place to place that doesn't require us to worry about space ship level expenses" option. It's big enough for your typical 4 PC group, it's J2 so you have some travel options, and it's streamlined and comes with an air/raft. Everything a small group of vagabonds need.
boggo2300
Emperor Mongoose
I was more replying to Ol'Weedy that you don't need to buy a knockoff with the sensors removed, you can buy a real one from the IISS (though it's likely to have seen better days) and as a standard hull, you can pretty much get one from any shipyard...
MonsterX
Emperor Mongoose
If you’re looking for a better pair of thrusters
Come down and see what Cal can muster
I’ve got traders, gigs and scouts
Payments won’t clean your bank out
Get a seeker! Change your luck!
The cargo hatch won’t come unstuck
Go see Cal, go see Cal, go see Cal!
This is a giant supermarket of spacecraft, just acres and acres of spacecraft, so if you’re out buying a spaceship, just come see me first, give me the first chance to deal, and I’ll buy you and the Misses a free rib dinner at Regina Station Rib House, all you gotta do is come see me first, no obligation to buy.
We are talking about a giant selection of spaceships, acres and acres and acres, and row after row of spaceships. We have this 1087 Lone Trader, pristine condition, one previous owner, a little old lady who flew her to church on Sunday, a steal at 16 million credits, and you could fly her away free and clear today.
Check out this Type S Scout Courier, clean paint, a real cherry and only 2350235000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 kilometers on the clock, 22 Mcr, you won’t find deals like that anywhere else!
Come down and see what Cal can muster
I’ve got traders, gigs and scouts
Payments won’t clean your bank out
Get a seeker! Change your luck!
The cargo hatch won’t come unstuck
Go see Cal, go see Cal, go see Cal!
This is a giant supermarket of spacecraft, just acres and acres of spacecraft, so if you’re out buying a spaceship, just come see me first, give me the first chance to deal, and I’ll buy you and the Misses a free rib dinner at Regina Station Rib House, all you gotta do is come see me first, no obligation to buy.
We are talking about a giant selection of spaceships, acres and acres and acres, and row after row of spaceships. We have this 1087 Lone Trader, pristine condition, one previous owner, a little old lady who flew her to church on Sunday, a steal at 16 million credits, and you could fly her away free and clear today.
Check out this Type S Scout Courier, clean paint, a real cherry and only 2350235000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 kilometers on the clock, 22 Mcr, you won’t find deals like that anywhere else!
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
pick your starship
it's no hardship
jump drive engaged
twenty percenture
forty indenture
your future mortgaged
it's no hardship
jump drive engaged
twenty percenture
forty indenture
your future mortgaged
Fluffy Bunny Feet
Emperor Mongoose
I have a 180 ton (TL 11 J2M3) modular Explorer craft (Survey and Courier variants) with a 100 ton module for different missions (Jump fuel in the module with a lot of other things) it has a Seeker variant. That 100 ton module I am now preparing custom versions for prospecting and mining use.
Ultimately I want to have a variety of modules that can be brought in and function as a full (small scale) mining base with the Seeker either continuing to prospect for more claims or acting as a tug to take cargo in jump nets to the destination. It could even include small scale smelters (metal more valuable than ore and 1/2 the mass, fewer trips more profit).
Safari ships are a nice design to vary. J-2, small craft, already has variable tonnage. Fancy stateroom for the owner. You could add Jump Nets for temporary J-1 haulage. Better potential cargo than a Seeker.
Edit: And, depending on your preferred deckplan, lots of things near the actual cargo hold that could be ripped out and turned into more cargo.
Edit: And, depending on your preferred deckplan, lots of things near the actual cargo hold that could be ripped out and turned into more cargo.
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Maxijohndoe
Banded Mongoose
The best way to handle this is via role play and using social and other skills.
You want to sell your ship and by a new one?
First you need the mortgage holder's approval as you don't own the whole ship.
Then you need to find a buyer for your ship who has the millions of Cr to pay for it.
Then you need to locate the ship you want to buy.
Then you need to arrange a new mortgage if you don't have the Cr to pay for it.
So basically there are a few steps to work through. This may well require travel, negotiations and even shenanigans to achieve.
You want to sell your ship and by a new one?
First you need the mortgage holder's approval as you don't own the whole ship.
Then you need to find a buyer for your ship who has the millions of Cr to pay for it.
Then you need to locate the ship you want to buy.
Then you need to arrange a new mortgage if you don't have the Cr to pay for it.
So basically there are a few steps to work through. This may well require travel, negotiations and even shenanigans to achieve.
"The mortgage holder's approval" probably isn't a big issue for the same reason that it isn't a big issue when you sell your house IRL: the sale gives you the money to pay it off right away, so it's liable to be a few (or in the Imperium, a bunch of) standardized forms and done.
I'm sure there will be "contingent on sale of previous" purchase agreements for ships just like there are for houses, too. The main complicating factor is the time lag if you're buying and selling in different systems, but even in that case there's probably a standard process for delivering the old ship to the purchaser once the new one is taken possession of. (And since it won't be a PC group taking the ship there it won't automatically crash/be hijacked/etc per the standard simple-delivery plot.)
I'm sure there will be "contingent on sale of previous" purchase agreements for ships just like there are for houses, too. The main complicating factor is the time lag if you're buying and selling in different systems, but even in that case there's probably a standard process for delivering the old ship to the purchaser once the new one is taken possession of. (And since it won't be a PC group taking the ship there it won't automatically crash/be hijacked/etc per the standard simple-delivery plot.)
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
There is such a thing as negative equity. In that case your lender might not allow you to sell and will instead seize the asset the loan is on (the ship in this case). We have no information about early redemption clauses in standard ship purchase contracts, but paying off the loan doesn't make the lender any money. They are looking for the 100% return on their investment that you won't be providing over the 40 year mortgage.
The Traveller mortgage is a simplication for game purposes of the entire administrative expense of owning a ship and any business associated with it. Because the game does not want to bog you down with registration fees, crew licensing fees, safety inspection fees, business taxes, tariffs, liability insurance, and all the rest that a real operator of such an expensive vehicle would face.
The fact is that starships in Traveller are simply too expensive for individuals who are not extremely wealthy to actually own. The disparity between starship level money and non starship level money is just that extreme. That's the reason why ships are usually either the result of mustering out or a reward for some very dodgy adventure. Because no rational business is going to be agreeing with a deal like "I'm a retired whatever with some buddies, will you loan me MCr40 to be a tramp trader with no business plan, established contracts, or any collateral."
The high cost of starships actually causes quite a few issues with Traveller gameplay if you want to include "have spaceship, will travel" as your theme, because if you aren't using the trade system to keep your ship's expensives covered, your patrons (or heists) need to pay an order of magnitude (or more) than they would if you were a non starship owning band.
The fact is that starships in Traveller are simply too expensive for individuals who are not extremely wealthy to actually own. The disparity between starship level money and non starship level money is just that extreme. That's the reason why ships are usually either the result of mustering out or a reward for some very dodgy adventure. Because no rational business is going to be agreeing with a deal like "I'm a retired whatever with some buddies, will you loan me MCr40 to be a tramp trader with no business plan, established contracts, or any collateral."
The high cost of starships actually causes quite a few issues with Traveller gameplay if you want to include "have spaceship, will travel" as your theme, because if you aren't using the trade system to keep your ship's expensives covered, your patrons (or heists) need to pay an order of magnitude (or more) than they would if you were a non starship owning band.
Fluffy Bunny Feet
Emperor Mongoose
That is why I assume all starship purchases must be at least 25% down. Even if it is all you have it shows that you have (or at least had) serious money making ability in the past. Also for MTU that 25% is actually 10 MCr towards a ship. If you have enough (even pooled) with other PCs it will allow you to buy a larger ship (along with the age of the ship maybe a MUCH larger ship). Or they can be after an "el Cheapo" ship so they have a lower mortgage and more than 25% down.
If they depreciate in the short term possibly. If we are to believe the CRB depreciation is very low in Traveller as you can sell a ship after 5 years for what you bought it for. The next 10 years it depreciates at 1% per year and then 0.5% each year for the next decade and it drops off even more after that.
The lender only cares that your ship is worth more than the amount you have yet to pay off. That way they can seize the ship to cover their capital.
Traveller ship mortgages run a shade under 4% APR. For a MCr100 ship:
In the first year you only pay off MCr1.039 off the capital. Your ship is still however worth the full MCr100.
At the end of year 5 you will still owe MCr94.365 but at the start of year 6 your ship is still worth MCr95.
By the end of Year 10 you owe MCr87.492 and your ship is worth MCr90.
At the end of year 15 you owe MCr79.108 and your ship is still worth MCr85.
In Year 25 you owe MCr56.408 but your ship is worth MCr80.
At the 25 year point you will have shelled out MCr125 and the lender will have made over MCr69 off you.
When you finally pay off the mortgage in year 40 you will still be able to sell the ship for 80% of what you paid for it.
You are not buying the ship for primarily capital investment, you are buying it as a tool to generate income (via trade or piracy), but even so you can make a tiny profit even selling at the top of the market. You just have to meet your running costs, but not the mortgage to turn an overall profit as you get that back plus a premium if you sell the ship at any point. The premium grows the longer you have held the ship (and it is best to sell it just before the step drop in value (at the 6, 11, 16, and 26 year points).
After 1 year you make MCr1.039 (which is very poor but still better than the return on a ship share).
If you sell it at the 5 year point you make MCr5.635.
If you sell it at at the 24 year point you make MCr25.895.
Clearly if your ship can clear both running costs and mortgage then you can run without a significant cash reserve.
Loans secured on depreciating assets are common in business in real life (or Hire purchase / rent to own arrangements) and make sense as long as the asset helps you make more money. I think we used to work on 20% depreciation each year for tax purposes so Traveller depreciation is very low.
Fluffy Bunny Feet
Emperor Mongoose
Not sell buy. Most sales are through a dealer and have a warranty that you as a private seller can't offer. You will sell for less than that (and so on with all the other buying prices over time) while buying for that price (depending on negotiations). Even private sales would usually involve a "Starship Broker" who makes sure all the i's are dotted and t's crossed and they will take a percentage of the price.
It's just a secured loan. Cars depreciate in value too, but most car loans are secured ones (i.e. mortgages). Don't be confused with terminology - ship finance in the real world is commonly done as a mortgage.
True story - I once could have bought a forklift from a place I worked at, for cheap. (And I passed, because what was I going to do with a forklift at home, but conceivably somebody could find a use for it.)
It was not a new forklift. It was in fact our oldest forklift, which is why it was cheap in the first place, and why the boss wanted it gone while it technically still ran. I could not have turned around and sold it for the sticker price of a new forklift.
I feel like that about smallcraft and starship benefits from character creation. Alright, you got a ship's boat, and it runs, and that's cool. But it doesn't follow that it was a free gift of a new off the lot ship's boat. Maybe you bought the oldest ship's boat in the fleet for 10,000 credits out of all the money you were paid that didn't survive through to your cash benefit rolls. Or a similar deal with ship shares, yeah you've got half a free trader, but it's out of some complicated deal that ups the face value of your buyout on condition you take this beast off their hands.
It's an issue that this is not all spelled out in the rules, and not spelled out in the rules bothers some people. But the rules are known to be somewhat generic to allow for use with multiple licenses and home games, so sometimes it's okay to drill down in ways that aren't spelled out.
It was not a new forklift. It was in fact our oldest forklift, which is why it was cheap in the first place, and why the boss wanted it gone while it technically still ran. I could not have turned around and sold it for the sticker price of a new forklift.
I feel like that about smallcraft and starship benefits from character creation. Alright, you got a ship's boat, and it runs, and that's cool. But it doesn't follow that it was a free gift of a new off the lot ship's boat. Maybe you bought the oldest ship's boat in the fleet for 10,000 credits out of all the money you were paid that didn't survive through to your cash benefit rolls. Or a similar deal with ship shares, yeah you've got half a free trader, but it's out of some complicated deal that ups the face value of your buyout on condition you take this beast off their hands.
It's an issue that this is not all spelled out in the rules, and not spelled out in the rules bothers some people. But the rules are known to be somewhat generic to allow for use with multiple licenses and home games, so sometimes it's okay to drill down in ways that aren't spelled out.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
One assumes, surplus to requirements.
Normally, probably headed to contracted wholesalers, but the institution has a perquisite that allows retired employees to purchase it, at cost minus depreciation.
Normally, probably headed to contracted wholesalers, but the institution has a perquisite that allows retired employees to purchase it, at cost minus depreciation.
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