Okay, say your group wants to sell their starship...

[Galadrion]

Example: a merchant musters out of the service with a Free Trader with twenty years left on the mortgage. After a fairly profitable five years, she wants to move to a larger ship.

How would you, as the Referee, determine a reasonable sale price that they might expect? How difficult would such a sale be to arrange? And how long would it take? Any suggestions?

 

[Arkathan]

I use the broker table and rules.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I use the broker table and rules.

Page 188 of the CRB give you a discounted price based on age. You could use this as the base and then modify it by the broker rules.

 

[CordwainerFish]

Sounds like a great roleplaying opportunity. Watch Used Cars as part of your prep.

 

[Arkathan]

You could. I had that situation only once, but they rolled ridiculously high after saving a small town (replaced the scout with their Chargen trader in High and Dry, and they packed the stragglers into the cargo bay) so I used the problems to reduce the purchase price to something sane.

 

[Condottiere]

Detail it.

Or, strip it for parts.

 

[Limpin Legin]

If it is the player's ship then they should be allowed to set their own price.

Referee could roll a d66 to determine if customer buys their ship or if the customer finds another 'random encounter ' bargain elsewhere.

Or, could setup a task chain of player's broker + leadership + streetwise skills, to convince each customer:
Leadership - convince buyer of merit in buying vessel
Broker - to adjust price according to age and availability of competition
Streetwise - to talk around the combat damage (if any) + quirks + is it inclusive of fuel and weapon ammo.
The referee could throw a recon or broker opposition roll to see if the buyer believes what they see and trusts the players.

Number of potential customers per week could depend on size of the local star port.

Maybe one of the prospective buyers is a shipyard representative who wants a lower price, so they can profit from a resell, but can pay instantly without needing extra time to secure a mortgage.

Up to the referee to set the level of detail in the sale transaction. IMO, it should feel a big deal but imagination and sense of fun can be justified rule breakers.

 

[swordtart]

Firstly if there is any mortgage left then that fraction of the ship belongs to the bank* and so when you sell that much money goes to the bank. If you cannot sell it for that amount then you owe any deficit personally. The normal procedure is you sell the old ship, redeem the Mortgage and pay any deficit or receive any surplus. You then obtain a new mortgage for the new ship. The bank would like to see your overall ability to pay them money improve but you might pay off some of the new ship value from your surplus to reduce the mortgage amount or period. If you cannot return them the value of the ship after the sale, they will block the sale and simply repossess the ship.

The general principle is that Traveller ships tend to retain their value. The notional value of the ship is the sum of its parts less any common design discount (if it applied when you bought it, it applies when you sell it). This is the value of parts fitted. If you paid extra for retrofitting, you don't get that back. The value of any damaged components is reduced by any repair cost to restore them to full functionality (or the cost to remove and replace them completely if that is less)

Selling it for that notional value requires:
1) a buyer looking for a ship of that type at the time you wish to sell it. This is likely dependent on the star port class and a few other factors.
2) a buyer willing to pay that or near enough the price you want. Even if you state the price you expect, most buyers will expect to haggle once they have seen the ship first hand.

1) Finding the buyer at the time you wish to sell is best conducted through roleplaying, but the rules for finding a buyer for trade goods are equally valid. It should be easier finding buyers on planets with well developed on-line trading facilities. You can seek multiple buyers (at -1 per previous attempt in the same month).

2) Establishing the price is more complex.

Sales of trade goods are conducted using Broker skill, but these are comparatively small sums of money, presume fast and loose trading and assume high risk tolerance in volatile markets. Ship markets don't tend to be volatile and having someone loose 80% of the value of their ship because of a fluffed dice roll seems harsh, so I would not recommend that. In addition the buyer would be sensible to use a Broker themselves and it all gets a bit swingy.

An alterative for less volatile markets might be an opposed Broker(INT/SOC) check with the effect being the percentage change to the notional price (positive or negative). This is the final offer and can be rejected but represents the end result of an extended negotiating session (1D x 4 Hours). If you reject the offer you will need to find another buyer.

Either party could use specialist ship brokers (and it is probably easiest to assume the NPC always will) who conduct the negotiation using their Broker skill of 2D/3 instead. They don't get a +2 bonus for being local and they only charge 1% of the notional value of the ship as a flat fee.

If you are selling a ship and cutting out the bank, this is a black market trade and you will need a black market Broker who will charge 2%, who will be an informer on a natural 2 on the fixers skill determination roll. Note that regardless of whether you succeed in selling without consulting the bank you will still need to meet the mortgage commitment for the original loan until it is paid off. It is just that now you don't have it secured with a ship. As long as you make the payments (and you were not informed on) the bank is unlikely to care (though there are likely to be numerous ways they could find out). the month the payments stop however they will spin up their recovery agents and will attempt to recover the full amount owed plus recovery fees.

*This has nuances.
The mortgage value is twice the notional value of the ship. Every month you are paying off 1/480th of the ship value, you also pay them another 1/480th as a fee for the loan (this is not just interest as it is a fixed amount). So for a MCr100 ship, the mortgage is MCr200 and you pay off just under KCr417 per month.
If you redeem the mortgage after 5 years (60 months), you have paid off 60/480ths of the ship. When you sell it, you have to give the bank the remaining 420/480ths (MCr87.5). Anything above that is yours to keep. The bank makes their money from the MCr2.5 you have been paying every year in fees.

 

[Sigtrygg]

From CT S:7

"Base price for the surplus scout/courier is MCr.17"

A brand new one:

"Base price to the government for a scout/courier is MCr27.63, which includes savings based on standardized designs. Architect's fees are not necessary, as they were amortized long ago."

 

[swordtart]

From CT S:7

"Base price for the surplus scout/courier is MCr.17"

A brand new one:

"Base price to the government for a scout/courier is MCr27.63, which includes savings based on standardized designs. Architect's fees are not necessary, as they were amortized long ago."

Scout ships are odd though as they don't come with a mortgage and cannot be sold if the discussion on other threads remains valid so their second hand value is moot.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Firstly if there is any mortgage left then that fraction of the ship belongs to the bank* and so when you sell that much money goes to the bank. If you cannot sell it for that amount then you owe any deficit personally. The normal procedure is you sell the old ship, redeem the Mortgage and pay any deficit or receive any surplus. You then obtain a new mortgage for the new ship. The bank would like to see your overall ability to pay them money improve but you might pay off some of the new ship value from your surplus to reduce the mortgage amount or period. If you cannot return them the value of the ship after the sale, they will block the sale and simply repossess the ship.

The general principle is that Traveller ships tend to retain their value. The notional value of the ship is the sum of its parts less any common design discount (if it applied when you bought it, it applies when you sell it). This is the value of parts fitted. If you paid extra for retrofitting, you don't get that back. The value of any damaged components is reduced by any repair cost to restore them to full functionality (or the cost to remove and replace them completely if that is less)

I have to disagree with this since the CRB page 188 disagrees with you.
6-10 years old -5%
11-15 years old -10%
16-25 years old -15%
26-50 years old -20%
51-100 years old -25%
etc

 

[Sigtrygg]

And yet they are sold off in sufficient numbers to warrant the mustering out benefit of the Belter career.

So the setting doesn't agree with whatever was said on whatever that other thread was.

Scout ships are sold off - canon fact.

They are converted into Seekers - canon fact.

It's the only reference that springs to mind on the subject of second hand ships other than what is in the core rule book itself.

Hmm, wonder what HG2022 says:

"A variation on the traditional scout/courier, the seeker is occasionally produced in this configuration by shipyards but it is more commonly a refitted old scout retired from active service."

Same as the core rule book.

 

[Limpin Legin]

I have to disagree with this since the CRB page 188 disagrees with you.
6-10 years old -5%
11-15 years old -10%
16-25 years old -15%
26-50 years old -20%
51-100 years old -25%
etc

Yes saw that table. It also has got # of quirks per age of vessel. So, if you use that table do you keep track of age of players ship and assign quirks as the vessel gets older?

NB: Example in OP's post suggests vessel is five years old, which, according to pg188, is not yet "old".

 

[swordtart]

Yes saw that table. It also has got # of quirks per age of vessel. So, if you use that table do you keep track of age of players ship and assign quirks as the vessel gets older?

NB: Example in OP's post suggests vessel is five years old, which, according to pg188, is not yet "old".

I did consider the quirks table initially but I realised that it is designed as an optional way for buying cheaper ships when you didn't get one as a benefit (and to make a benefit ship a bit less vanilla). It is not mandated that old ships have quirks and are thus cheaper as "Travellers purchasing an outdated ship may do so by rolling on the Outdated Ships table."

The table bears no relation to the text explaining it or even the benefit rule that calls it.

For the benefit you get a ship that is 25% paid off and has d6 quirks. That would be 10 years old under the normal mortgage payment system, but it has to be 51-100 years old to get that level of discount (and a ship that old has been paid off fully and possibly twice over). It should get 6 quirks, not an average of 3.5. I am also not sure that for each extra 25% paid off you roll even more quirks. I am inclined to say yes, but that could get silly really quickly.
"So how come this Free Trader Hull is apparently made of sheet rock and has only 8 Hull Points?"
"Oh, you know Quirks!, but hey, on the upside, it has smuggling compartments."
"I know I can see them from OUTSIDE the ship!"

The key I think is the phrase outdated spaceship. Outdated is different to 6 years old and the exact same spec as one I could buy today. The actual quirks however don't even relate to outdated, they appear to largely be unrepaired faults/damage or random upgrades (arguably the opposite of outdated).

As you point out, I don't think we are supposed to be saying. "Ooh congrats, it is the 6th anniversary of you buying that ship. For no reason at all it is now (Rolls dice) suddenly "famous and well respected"*, oh and as you now have a quirk which has made the ship arguably better, it's value has has dropped by 5%. Don't worry, the Mortgage is still the same though. Enjoy!"

I think the table is fine as an option but I am not reading across anything about aging from it. Player ships accumulate quirks (if any) from player actions in game not a random table.
I think a better way to make "outdated" ships cheaper is to use lower TL components.
I am not convinced that making a ship better via a quirk should cause the price to drop or what that has to do with aging.
Dropping the price by 5% is neither here nor there in the majority of cases.

Making things cheaper as they have damage needs to be tied into the cost of repair mechanism or again nonsense ensues.
"Ah we got MCr4.6 off as the sensors on this Free Trader are damaged x 2. Hmm that -2 could be an issue. How much to replace them. Errr. oh. MCr3... oh plus maybe 10% retrofitting. Cool MCr1.3 off and no adverse impact."
"What about the sheet rock special? Well it needs 72 points to repair. That and the smuggling compartments saved us MCr18+. Spare parts will costs us... MCr7.2. Hmm a long job though? Nah, 72 routine mechanic checks at an hour each. If we all lent a hand we could get it done in 2 days. Hey lets not bother flying the things, we can make a mint just fixing them up!!

It used to be that gaining a ship as a benefit was just a way to get a ship, you still had the full monthly mortgage cost to meet. If you got it more than once it reduced the repayment period left by 10 years each time. You needed to get it twice to get 10 years off and 5 times for the mortgage to be fully paid off.

Under MGT2 Are we supposed to be reducing the monthly payments by 25% or saying you only need to make 30 years of payments at the original level. I never had a campaign (or character) last more than a few years in traveller so getting a mortgage paid off was a fantasy whether there were 10 or 40 years left. Paying 25% less would have made a big difference though.

* or the computer has been spontaneously upgraded or it is miraculously well-maintained etc.

 

[Galadrion]

NB: Example in OP's post suggests vessel is five years old, which, according to pg188, is not yet "old".

Actually, I stated that she mustered out with a Free Trader, with twenty years of the mortgage paid. (Ship would be twenty years old at this point.) Then she tramp-freighted for five years - that puts the ship at twenty-five years old.

 

[Arkathan]

If it is the player's ship then they should be allowed to set their own price.

Referee could roll a d66 to determine if customer buys their ship or if the customer finds another 'random encounter ' bargain elsewhere.

Or, could setup a task chain of player's broker + leadership + streetwise skills, to convince each customer:
Leadership - convince buyer of merit in buying vessel
Broker - to adjust price according to age and availability of competition
Streetwise - to talk around the combat damage (if any) + quirks + is it inclusive of fuel and weapon ammo.
The referee could throw a recon or broker opposition roll to see if the buyer believes what they see and trusts the players.

Number of potential customers per week could depend on size of the local star port.

Maybe one of the prospective buyers is a shipyard representative who wants a lower price, so they can profit from a resell, but can pay instantly without needing extra time to secure a mortgage.

Up to the referee to set the level of detail in the sale transaction. IMO, it should feel a big deal but imagination and sense of fun can be justified rule breakers.

The players can definitely set their own price. Rolling on the brokerage table gives you a quick counter-offer. The players can accept that offer, spend a week trying to fond someone else to sell it to, or move to the next system and hope that someone there needs a ship NOW, as opposed to when the nearest shipyard can make them one.
All of the nuances involved in RP'ing and other bargaining can go on. That is just an easy reference for the Ref to use or ignore.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Actually, I stated that she mustered out with a Free Trader, with twenty years of the mortgage paid. (Ship would be twenty years old at this point.) Then she tramp-freighted for five years - that puts the ship at twenty-five years old.

Actually, I am not sure either of you are correct. The text doesn't say that the ship is outdated, strangely enough. It just says that it is 25% or more paid off and has D6 quirks. By the chart that could be anywhere from 6 years old to 100 years old. When you get your ship as a mustering out benefit, it doesn't say you get an outdated ship. It just says what type of ship it is and how much is paid off. You could be 75% paid off but still only be 6 years old. Remember, people don't always pay the minimum on their loans, overthought in the Traveller Universe there is no benefit to making extra payments in a year.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Actually, I stated that she mustered out with a Free Trader, with twenty years of the mortgage paid. (Ship would be twenty years old at this point.) Then she tramp-freighted for five years - that puts the ship at twenty-five years old.

20 years' worth of mortgage paid off could mean 50MCr paid off on a 100MCr loan in 5 years, in 20 years, or any other number of years less than 20. So, that is you or your Referee simply deciding that the ship is 25 years old. It never says that under the benefit for Free Trader.

 

[MasterGwydion]

The players can definitely set their own price. Rolling on the brokerage table gives you a quick counter-offer. The players can accept that offer, spend a week trying to fond someone else to sell it to, or move to the next system and hope that someone there needs a ship NOW, as opposed to when the nearest shipyard can make them one.
All of the nuances involved in RP'ing and other bargaining can go on. That is just an easy reference for the Ref to use or ignore.

Not being critical, but the flaw in your method seems to be that if you set a price 1,000% the price of the ship and then the NPCs roll on the Broker chart, you will always come out ahead because they cannot roll good enough to make you lose money.

Maybe you could determine what a good base price is, from the Outdated Ships chart, plus any modifications that add or detract value. Then have the players set the price. If the players have a 100MCr ship, once you add it all up, and decide that they want to sell it for 120MCr. Then, do the Broker roll. 3D6 + Your Broker Skill - the NPCs Broker Skill (usually 2). Check the Sale Price column. If you reached or exceeded the percentage increase you were asking for, congrats! You got your asking price. In the example above, the minimum Sale Percentage to succeed would be 120%.

 

[Arkathan]

Not being critical, but the flaw in your method seems to be that if you set a price 1,000% the price of the ship and then the NPCs roll on the Broker chart, you will always come out ahead because they cannot roll good enough to make you lose money.

Maybe you could determine what a good base price is, from the Outdated Ships chart, plus any modifications that add or detract value. Then have the players set the price. If the players have a 100MCr ship, once you add it all up, and decide that they want to sell it for 120MCr. Then, do the Broker roll. 3D6 + Your Broker Skill - the NPCs Broker Skill (usually 2). Check the Sale Price column. If you reached or exceeded the percentage increase you were asking for, congrats! You got your asking price. In the example above, the minimum Sale Percentage to succeed would be 120%.

Yes. The percentage is of the base, devalued price, as you suggest. That is the price the NPC has in mind. The players can negotiate, trade favors or other considerations to try to change the NPC offer. If still too low, they can walk or take the lower offer.