Number of Combat Actions

[Deleriad]

As of yet I have not had a chance to play with real, live people (if anyone's in Leicester - Loughborough - Nottingham area feel free to get in touch) but I'm worried about the CA breakpoints. It seems, to me, that Dex 13 vs Dex 12 is hugely different. For example, two characters with a greatsword, both 100% one is dex 13, one is dex 12. The Dex 13 person gets a free attack which, probably, can't be parried every 6 seconds. It's a huge, huge breakpoint.

I've been wondering about using a fixed number of CAs - say 2 per round with 2 reactions - and letting characters who are masters (100%) get 1 additional CA (or reaction) each round which must be used for their combat skill. (BTW, for me, a master is someone who has a printed value of 100% on their character sheet not someone whose skill has exceeded 100% due to a positive modifier).

Has anyone been finding issues with all combat oriented PCs going for Dex 13 or seen it being a huge advantage (or not)? Has anyone tried fixing the number of CAs and found it good/bad?

 

[Halfbat]

Whilst intuitively what you say 'feels' true I've found that, in practice with mid-range characters (at least), it doesn't quite work like that. As reactions are only declared after a successful attack there are often spare reactions unless a character uses them to riposte or make free attacks - which are tactical decisions anyway.

As a result I don't intend 'fixing' them until I find a problem. It may occur with multiple characters and foes at the 80%+ mark, but I've yet to find out.

The extra parry from a shield helps, btw.

 

[RMS]

There are others who have had this problem in play. One (good) recommendation was to give everyone 2 A/R and allow a master (100%+ skill, or maybe even just 90%+ skill) with a DEX of 13+ to purchase a Legendary Ability that allows an extra A/R with that weapon every round. I like this as it gets away from the artificial breakpoint of 12-13 DEX which essentially gives the person with the higher DEX a free attack every round, and it builds into the Legendary Abilities another one that's very useful and would stand out.

 

[Mugen]

Personnally, I use Combat Actions as the MAXIMUM number of actions per turn.

In the first step of a combat round, one has to determine how mant actions he will perform. For each action over the first, he will get a cumulative -20%.

I apply a similar rule to reactions. After the first reaction, each new reaction adds -20% cumulative modifier.

Example :

*I chose to attack 3 times. I get a -40 modifier to all my rolls this turn.
*First action step :
-I attack once at -40%
-I parry once at -40%
*2d action step :
-I attack once at -40%
-I parry once at -60% (this is my second reaction in the round).
*3rd action step :
-My third attack is at -60% (I suffer from my 2d reaction modifier)
-My last parry is at -80%

The exception to this rule is for people with 2 weapons. He gets either one "free" attack or one "free" reaction at -20% that counts against the max number of actions but doesn't add to the cumulative modifier.

Example with a free parry :

*I chose to attack 3 times. I get a -40 modifier to all my rolls this turn.
*First action step :
-I attack once at -40%
-I parry once at -40%
*2d action step :
-I attack once at -40%
-I parry once with the bonus parry from my shield at -60%.
*3rd action step :
-My third attack is at -40% (I do not suffer from my 2d reaction, as it was the bonus parry)
-My last parry is at -60%

Example with a free attack :

*I chose to attack 3 times and use the free attack from my left-hand weapon as one of these attacks. I get a -20 modifier to all my rolls this turn.
*First action step :
-I attack once at -20%
-I parry once at -20%
*2d action step :
-I attack once at -20%
-I parry once at -40%.
*3rd action step :
-My third attack is at -60% (-20% from my 2d reaction and -20% for this attack being the free attack by my off-hand weapon)
-My last parry is at -60%

 

[iamtim]

In my game, most of the characters have 3 CAs. Largely that's because they're playing a non-standard "human" race based off of Arnold's Conan -- big, bloated, barbarians -- with better than average statistics.

So far, it's not been a problem, even against characters with 2 CAs.

That said, I base CAs not off DEX alone, but off the character's Strike Rank (essentially, INT+DEX/2).

 

[Banesfinger]

I base CAs not off DEX alone, but off the character's Strike Rank (essentially, INT+DEX/2).

Instead of Strike Rank, perhaps use an average of DEX and weapon skill (as other previous posts have suggested 'seems' right). Of course, weapon skill would need to reduced to make the formula work (e.g., divide skill /5).

E.g.: Dex 12, and Weapon Skill 85% = 12 + (85/5) averaged = 14 (rounded down).

This way you will see characters who are 'naturally' fast (e.g. high Dex) have lots of swings, but you will also see character's CAs increase as they become more skilled (which 'feels' right).

 

[Utgardloki]

I don't intend to use this solution, but it is one way I see of breaking the "Dexterity break point" problem.

Instead of basing # of CA's on a character's Dex, base # of CA's on the character's Initiative Roll. That way, a high Dex character will get more CA's, but because of the randomness in the initiative roll, there is no point at which one character will be much much better than another with only 1 point less Dex.

Of course, using Strike Rank + 1D10 will grant every character 1 extra CA per round, on the average. Since this applies to all characters equally, it's not a problem, but the tables can also be adjusted by reducing the CA's by -1 for everybody.

 

[iamtim]

perhaps use an average of DEX and weapon skill

We're going to experiment with rules that, in effect, duplicate SR modifiers for weapons. So, for instance, large weapons might require 1 CA to ready.

 

[RMS]

We're going to experiment with rules that, in effect, duplicate SR modifiers for weapons. So, for instance, large weapons might require 1 CA to ready.

I'd be careful with this. 2-handed weapons already have a decided disadvantage in MRQ. Anyone with two weapons get's an extra reaction or an extra attack (at negatives, but still...) every round already. As written, this balances out by the fact that 2-handed weapons do a ton more damage, but if you make them even tougher to get attacks with there won't be any use for them.

 

[Exubae]

We're going to experiment with rules that, in effect, duplicate SR modifiers for weapons. So, for instance, large weapons might require 1 CA to ready.

Use of two handed weapons
Generally speaking reach is going to be better but get in close they lose their effectiveness, you can do little except strike with the butt or guard of the weapon.
Speed wise, except where the weapon has greater weight (i.e. Maul) readying the weapon may no be any slower.
Messed about with staff fighting and it can be pretty quick, same goes for spears and two handed sword (when not used in archetypical Conan the barbarian grip).
Its usually weapons that have an extend swung arc and greater mass that are relatively slow to bring to bear; Hammers, mauls, and axes; though pole arms have the advantage of being usable in more than one mode (thrust or swung).

Really if you want to model weapons correctly you should examine reach and getting inside the usable distance of a weapon.

i.e.
Getting up close against a guy with a spear while your weilding a dagger, the spear weilder is reducing to using weapon his spear as lightweight staff.

 

[RMS]

Really if you want to model weapons correctly you should examine reach and getting inside the usable distance of a weapon.

i.e.
Getting up close against a guy with a spear while your weilding a dagger, the spear weilder is reducing to using weapon his spear as lightweight staff.

You mean like RQ3 did it?

You know that someone had to say it...

 

[JohnLokiBeard]

That said, I base CAs not off DEX alone, but off the character's Strike Rank (essentially, INT+DEX/2).

Are you using 2*DEX as the SR for fixed-INT critters? 'Cause otherwise "he has reflexes like a jungle cat" means "Average Peasant can usually hit him first"! :lol:
But that's how the RAW has it so maybe it's intentional, in the spirit of 'greater PC survivability'. :?

 

[Deleriad]

Instead of Strike Rank, perhaps use an average of DEX and weapon skill (as other previous posts have suggested 'seems' right). Of course, weapon skill would need to reduced to make the formula work (e.g., divide skill /5).

E.g.: Dex 12, and Weapon Skill 85% = 12 + (85/5) averaged = 14 (rounded down).

This way you will see characters who are 'naturally' fast (e.g. high Dex) have lots of swings, but you will also see character's CAs increase as they become more skilled (which 'feels' right).

Surely there are unresolvable problems with this. For example, if someone is using two weapons, which one is used to calculate the number of CAs? It would also mean that someone who is, for example, a master of greatsword runs faster (i.e. can spend more CAs on movement actions) while he has a sword in his hand than when he doesn't. I looked at this idea but couldn't fiind a way to make it work. E.g. someone calculates CAs based on weapon skill 85% then headbutts an opponent more often than if he didn't pretend to use his weapon as his headbutt score is only 40%.

 

[Rurik]

We're going to experiment with rules that, in effect, duplicate SR modifiers for weapons. So, for instance, large weapons might require 1 CA to ready.

I tried using 1 CA as a cost to ready precise attacks and found using a CA to ready an attack does not work - all the target has to do is back up (using Fighting Retreat) to effectively cancel the attack.

I'd be careful with this. 2-handed weapons already have a decided disadvantage in MRQ.

I agree. The massive damage is nice, but the low AP and 1 less action/reaction over two weapon/weapon & sheild is significant.

I found with high skilled combatants a sheild pretty much a must. Bypass Armor doesn't stop the 8 or 10 AP for a sucessful sheild parry, which is huge. IMHO Two handed weapons are great for mowing down fodder (squash the little trollkins) but weapon and sheild is a must when facing highly skilled opponents.

 

[gamesmeister]

I'm was thinking about the following system for CA's.

Every character begins with 2 Combat Actions per round, and at the start of the round rolls against his SR modifier x 5%

Fumble: -1 CA
Fails: No change
Succeeds: +1 CA
Crits: +2 CA

Haven't playtested it yet, but it removes the arbitrary cut off point of DEX 13, and means that complete chumps with low DEX and INT could still get 4CA's against a Rune Lord with 1 who fumbles (not very often mind )

Gonna try it later tonight

Cheers
G

Addendum: Use one of the percentage dice to determine SR, so still only one roll required.

 

[Utgardloki]

Are you using 2*DEX as the SR for fixed-INT critters? 'Cause otherwise "he has reflexes like a jungle cat" means "Average Peasant can usually hit him first"!

I think the best thing to do for unintelligent animals would be to use INT + DEX, but then also apply an additional modifier defined for that animal type. Cats would get a high arbitrary modifier, while sloths would get a negative modifier. Elephants would probably get a +0.

The same idea could be applied to intelligent creatures that are especially quick-witted or slow-witted. Of course, a race of cat-people would have a high dex, but perhaps a race of geniuses might not be inclined to combat, and would get a strike rank penalty of -4. ("Hmmm, this sword is precisely 1.45 meters long. Why is that tiger running towards me with such a high velocity?")

 

[gamesmeister]

Our survey says...it worked great!

The number of CAs varyed from round to round, although almost always 2 or 3. A crit on this roll was very nice though...

What made it really interesting was that sometimes a character would have two consecutive strikes, where he was second in the SR sequence, and had an extra CA. What this means is that it makes the idea of a Precise shot costing a CA much more of a possibility. You need two consecutive CAs to make it work, so your opponent can't just perform a Fighting Retreat, but every round there is a chance you may get it.

I need to playtest this a bit more, as there may be some obvious problems I'm missing, but it made combat really dynamic, with the number of CAs ebbing and flowing. And using one of the dice for the SR modifier meant no extra rolls. I'm torn between whether to use the Tens or Singles die for this though - a high Tens die would tend to mean potentially fewer CAs, but more chance of striking first, therefore creating a possible balancing mechanism (however, see above and the consecutive strikes). Using the Singles die made it more of a lottery. The jury's still out on this, although I think I favour the Singles die simply because you add the number on the die, and not the number divided by 10.

Edit: One other thing - I just discovered it makes the Defend action very useful when you fumble your CA roll

G

 

[Gnarsh]

My idea is to keep the dex based CA numbers, but apply minuses to skill for taking more then one of the same action. Still considering numbers, but probably going to use -40 or -50% for each successive attack.

The goal is to somewhat simulate the timing and process that earlier RQs used for combat competance by making the skill you have with a weapon the determinant of how many times you can use it in a round. I don't have a proble with the CA system in general, just the idea that your actual capability in combat is determined so heavily by your dex stat alone. Having dex determine the total number of "things" you can do in a round, but still requiring your skill to determine how many of those can be attacks, parries or dodges seems to make sense to me.

So if you have 3 CAs, you still get 3 actions and 3 reactions, however, if you attack more then once the second attack is at say -40%. If you dodge twice, the second dodge is at -40%. If you have a second weapon equipped, you could make a second attack (with the other weapon than was used in the first attack) at -20% instead of the full -40% (but successive attacks with either weapon would be at an additional -40%). Alternatively, you could gain a second parry (again have to use different weapons/shields for each one) at -20% instead of the full -40%.


I'd also require that reactions be declared before the attack is rolled. Otherwise, defenses would be too powerful relatively (since you've got two potential full skill defensive actions versus only one offensive action by default). Obviously, flurry would have to be reworked as well. Still just kind of thinking this through, but I think it would work...

 

[iamtim]

So if you have 3 CAs, you still get 3 actions and 3 reactions, however, if you attack more then once the second attack is at say -40%. If you dodge twice, the second dodge is at -40%.

Yikes. Those sound kinda tough to me... so if I have a single axe and I use all three of my CAs to attack with it, the third attack is at -80%?

I like the idea, but I'm wondering if -20% might be better.

*shrug*

 

[Deleriad]

I'm was thinking about the following system for CA's.

Every character begins with 2 Combat Actions per round, and at the start of the round rolls against his SR modifier x 5%
[snip]

I must admit that if a non-fixed amount of CAs is required that I like the idea of using your SR roll to set it. Say for example, your #of CAs equals 1 for each 10 points (or portion thereof) of your rolled SR.
E.g. SR 1-10 = 1 CA, 11-20 = 2CA, 21-30 = 3CA etc.
It would be relatively non-changeable as most humanoids are going to have 2CAs per round most the time.

For creatures (entities with fixed INT) I would, personally, set their SRM as equal to DEX.