Note to Cyberpunk RPG Authors

[kzin]

I just finished reading a review of "OGL Cybernet", and found myself instantly disappointed. Something all authors of Cyberpunk supplements (and even cyberpunk game masters) should remain keenly aware of: "Loss of Self/Essence/Sanity" is _NOT_ a key part of the Cyberpunk genre. It is debatably a facet of a _few_ cyberpunk stories, but not of the more definitive works in the genre. It's also counter to some aspects of the genre.

Instead, the concept was introduced to a game system as a means of maintaining character balance in a system that has no levels and no development-points. D20 already has a perfectly good mechanic for maintaining character balance: levels.

I would recommend that future d20 cyberpunk games take a completely different path to limiting the cybernetic options of a character: base it on the character's level. One easy example would be to have a Cyberpunk class which gives a number of "attunement" points that increase as the character's level increases, and those attunement points are used to limit the character's capacity for cybernetic enhancements. Other classes, such as your hackers, might have a moderate number of points. The least cybernetic of classes might have a few default points, or none at all. (for d20 modern, I would have some points granted by different background professions, maybe a few obtainable via feats, and I might have one or two of the basic classes have moderate numbers of points as well).

Another idea: rate cybernetic devices like Spell Levels. Then, have a class which acquires cybernetic devices in the same manner as a Sorcerer acquires "known spells". The higher the class level, the more devices of each level they can have, and they gain access to higher level devices every so often as well.

These make MUCH more sense to balancing cybernetics in a level based game than introducing a foreign game mechanic that doesn't even match the underlying genre.

(and shame on Mongoose Publishing for not even knowing their genre, or even their chosen game system, well enough to have seen this themselves)

I would personally recommend that those who are interested in the genre not buy any game that uses a mechanic like "loss of self", "loss of essence", or "loss of sanity" unless that game system lacks levels or development points. Which means "don't buy OGL Cybernet until they fix it".

 

[trancejeremy]

I would agree with you, I would probably have done it by level and class.

But really, that's easy to do yourself.

I also don't think they're going to fix it, the OGL games are pretty much stand alone and as is.

Anyway, I wrote a review of it myself

http://www.geocities.com/nofrills_reviews/oglcybernet.htm

(It should eventually appear on RPG.net, hopefully. But they seem to have a thing against me...)

 

[E Nicely]

Basing available cybernetics solely on wealth would fit, by making implants really expensive.

 

[August]

So let me get this straight...

Instead of Self points, which you see as an arbitrary, foriegn concept not found in anything but a few cyberpunk stories, you would rather see a system of attunement points per level that would allow people to get more complicated cyberware as they become better at their professions (most of which have very little to do with the physical body)?

I can certainly see how that is less arbitrary and better grounded in the cyberpunk genre. :shock:

Not to disparage the idea, since it is actually not a bad alternate system, but please give us some credit for having done our research. One of William Gibson (and P.K. Dick) 's guiding pronciples in their dystopian veiw of the fututre is the de-humanizing of mankind through exposure and acceptance of machines into their lives, their bodies, and their very souls.

Take care,
-A

 

[kiln publications]

The great thing about OGL is everyone is entitled to their own opinion and rulebooks. Personally I like OGL Cybernet's rulebook because of the easy of mechanics and well written rules. The main thing to keep in mind is that everybody is going to have different views of what Cyberpunk is and to be respectful of what each person wants to "bring to their own group". That should be left up to the individual GM.

 

[E Nicely]

So let me get this straight...

Instead of Self points, which you see as an arbitrary, foriegn concept not found in anything but a few cyberpunk stories, you would rather see a system of attunement points per level that would allow people to get more complicated cyberware as they become better at their professions (most of which have very little to do with the physical body)?

I can certainly see how that is less arbitrary and better grounded in the cyberpunk genre. :shock:

Not to disparage the idea, since it is actually not a bad alternate system, but please give us some credit for having done our research. One of William Gibson (and P.K. Dick) 's guiding pronciples in their dystopian veiw of the fututre is the de-humanizing of mankind through exposure and acceptance of machines into their lives, their bodies, and their very souls.

Take care,
-A

Credit given!

Basing attaining cyberware on a new level is too artificial IMO. It's not D&D.

 

[hobgoblin]

like in some similar thread on rpg.net (i belive it wasattatched to the review of this book):

while loss of self as a talked about subject comes up mutch in cyberpunk writeing they allways question where the border from man to machine goes, and how mutch a tool someone is willing to become to live a safe and relaxed life...

the problem is that its not only cyber that should have and an affect on loss of self but allso ones actions, them being forced or not. for that i point you to vampire and theyre humanity scale...

 

[kzin]

So let me get this straight...

Instead of Self points, which you see as an arbitrary, foriegn concept not found in anything but a few cyberpunk stories, you would rather see a system of attunement points per level that would allow people to get more complicated cyberware as they become better at their professions (most of which have very little to do with the physical body)?

0) I was being general with "few". I can't think of any seminal Cyberpunk works that involve cyberpsychosis/etc. The closest I can come (and it's really more of an amnesia and resurection issue than cybernetics) is Robocop ... and I'm sure we could argue all day as to whether or not that's seminal Cyberpunk.

1) I have yet to see any d20 game which makes a definitive mapping of profession vs class. I'll even give some counter examples:

Indiana Jones ... in d20Modern, the most likely classes are Daredevil and Field Scientist, yet neither of these are his actual profession (professor). And, d20 Modern assigns Professions via a separate mechanic.

Luke Skywalker ... in Star Wars, he probably has some levels of Fringer, Soldier, and Jedi Master. Yet, his professions have been Moisture Farmer (related to Fringer, but not a direct mapping since Fringer can be a lot of other things), Military Pilot (Soldier is not restricted to military, nor pilot), and in Luke's time, you can't really call the Jedi a profession anymore.

Clerics ... clerics are not necessarily priests. They are workers of miracles, and they do act under their diety's agenda, but they don't necessarily lead mass. They might be inquisitors, missionaries, etc. Fighters aren't necessarily professional soldiers (just as Star Wars Soldiers aren't necessarily professional soldiers); they might be individually or self-taught people who focus their skills upon fighting. etc.


In d20, classes describe character archetypes and their abilities and powers. They do not describe professions. Professions are a character description/background, not a mechanic.

2) name a d20 mechanic which more accurately describes a character's "Degree of Power" than their level.

Not to disparage the idea, since it is actually not a bad alternate system, but please give us some credit for having done our research. One of William Gibson (and P.K. Dick) 's guiding pronciples in their dystopian veiw of the fututre is the de-humanizing of mankind through exposure and acceptance of machines into their lives, their bodies, and their very souls.

Name some stories that tie the dystopian view to cybernetic implants.

I can even give counter examples to that linkage within, say, Gibson's work.

In Neuromancer, the most dehumanized-to-the-point-of-psychosis character in the story is Corto. Yet, we never see even one mention of cybernetics being related to his psychosis. Instead, it's war-weariness and other non-cybernetic factors that create his psychosis.

How about the Vat Grown Ninja. His dehumanization is presented as being an aspect of his spawning (cloned and/or genetically engineered, raised as a tool instead of a person, etc.). Not at all related to cybernetic implants.

Molly has some issues, but they're not caused by her implants. They're what she did in order to afford her implants, which is a story construct building character background. If she had, at the last moment, spent her money else where, she would have still wound up with those "issues".

Or Case. We start out the story with him knee deep in the dystopian existance. And yet, Case never has cybernetic implants of any kind, before or during the story. (rememer, in Gibson's world, the VR interface is not an invasive brian-plug).

In "Burning Chrome", we have the story about the holographic dogfight game, where we see plenty of dehumanization ... none of which is related to implants. Instead, we have the main character where the dystopian meme is presented through his addictions and obsessions, and the girl's dystopia is caused not by her implants, but by the way the main character abuses her to get her drugs (and by her parents similarly dehumanizing treatment of her in deciding to have her implanted). Again, story events and background, not tied directly to implants.

We also have the Johnny Mnemonic story in Burning Chrome, where a character actually finds a sense of community and belonging from his implants (when Johnny becomes one of the dogs).

None of these tie the dystopian view directly to implants. The dystopian view is societal, story, character background, etc. Further, by tying it to implants, and not providing similar "loss of self" through other game events (killing NPCs, double-dealing, etc.), you're basically saying that the dystopia of Cyberpunk is completely limited to implants. You can't have Corto under that view, because Corto has no means of "loss of self" that we are presented with. Yet, Corto is a key character to Neuromancer, as is his "loss of self".

Cyberpunk certainly is about the dystopian view, and how technology and corporate power lead to a dehumanizing existance when left unchecked ... but they do so in manner that is not as simplistic as "get implants, become a schizophrenic freak". The schizophrenia comes from the world in which they live, not from any implants they may (or often, do not) have. You're not embracing the dystopian view with "loss of self", you're undermining it, and therefore undermining the _actual_ conventions of the genre.


To quote a great summary of why such systems are silly (From Mark Hughes' review of Cyberpunk and Cyberpunk 2020):

"CP also foisted that ridiculous "Humanity Cost" concept on the genre because the original playtesters were munchkins (here's two questions for anyone who likes HC: How many grannies have gone psychotic and shot up grocery stores lately, just because they have an artificial hip, a hearing aid, and a pacemaker? How many cyberpunk novels can you name that have that concept in them?) It's a game hack, and a very bad genre-destroying one."

( http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/Cyberpunk/RPG.php )


And, really, that's another key point of limiting cybernetics via HC type systems instead of by Development Point or Character/Class Level systems: one of the earliest and clearest examples of munchkinism was low level character running around with ultra-powerful items that didn't suit their level. At even the most basic of RPG stereotypes, we recognize that the Level, in level based games, is the measure of a character's power. Letting low level characters, who might some how find a way to afford the money for an implant (selling themselves to a corporation is a completely valid part of the genre) is just creating another system for munchkins because it sepecifically bypasses the _actual_ power limiting measure of a character: their level.

 

[sonny sixshooter]

Well, as someone else mentioned earlier: change it in your game. I like it the way it is. But if you don't, it isn't hard to change.That's the beauty of d20.

- Sonny

 

[Anonymous]

So quick question Kzin,

With a cybernetic system based on level, you would never be able to create a character who was modified by a corporation, because they would only give him one implant, tell him to go level, and then they would implant more?

One could say that is anti-gibson or anti-punk, simply because we see in several stories introductions of MINOR characters that are chromed out. We see people who at birth where implanted with corp implants. The system wouldn't allow kids to recieve multiple implants be cause they are not old enough to be level 3, 4, or higher.

And that is the 'Catch' with a roleplaying system, no check and balance system fits all needs. Be happy with what you have, if you aren't then change it to fit your needs.

Me

 

[August]

Ultimately, Sonny and "me" have the right idea. If you don't like it, change it. That''s your power and that's the strength of an OGL system. Post your ideas here, and we will welcome them.

Just please, a flame is a flame no matter eloquently (and you were eloquent, well done) you phrase it. If you do not like something in Cybernet, please change it to suit yourself. A post including the phrase "shame on you" is not likely to be read past that point. I have given you this much attention because your ideas were valid, but your vitriol has no place here.

Take care,
-August

 

[kzin]

So quick question Kzin,

With a cybernetic system based on level, you would never be able to create a character who was modified by a corporation, because they would only give him one implant, tell him to go level, and then they would implant more?

I would set the power level of my game (lets say "12th level"), and let the characters define how they got there. If there are characters who define their background has having gotten their cyberware from selling themselves to a corporation, then they were able to do so at a price that got them the amount of cyberware that fits the power level of the game.

Low power game -> low level game -> low cybernetics game

If a character sells themself to a corp at low level, then they haven't earned a rep that gets them a lot of money for that process, and thus they end up with relatively low powered cybernetics. As they go up in level, and prove their worth to the corp, then the corp is willing to upgrade their cyberware and add more cyberware and more expensive cyberware.

The problem is that that the instantly powerful character breaks the concept of a level based game. Level measures power, so if you have instantly powerful characters you either need to give up levels (and go with a development point type game, or a game with no measure abstract measure of power), or give up "gradual development from 1st level to Nth level".

I personally have no problem with either approach. Recognize the mechanic for what it is, and use it that way. Level measures power, so use it as a means of setting and limiting the power of your game. If that means you sometimes start games above 1st level, do so if that fits the power level of your game. If you want a game that has high power, then set the game to a high power level by setting the character (and NPC) levels high.

One could say that is anti-gibson or anti-punk, simply because we see in several stories introductions of MINOR characters that are chromed out. We see people who at birth where implanted with corp implants. The system wouldn't allow kids to recieve multiple implants be cause they are not old enough to be level 3, 4, or higher.

1) dramatically minor != low character level

2) how old do you have to be in order to be 3rd level? (don't make up something that "makes sense" to you, quote me a rule that definitively ties character level to age)

And that is the 'Catch' with a roleplaying system, no check and balance system fits all needs.

And no RPG fits all situations. But the RPG ought to model its genre well. I have yet to see anyone give a reasonable explanation of how HC type systems accurately model the cyberpunk genre (since, as I stated above, the genre doesn't tie the dystopia to the implants) nor to real world cybernetics (as Mark's quote about granny's with implants illustrates).

And, I would consider your counter argument to illustrate where the d20 system in general breaks down when modeling Cyberpunk fiction (such that you must either break from the conventional "create at first level" mindset, or switch to a game system which doesn't use Levels for measuring power).

(as to the person who doesn't like instant changes in cyberware at level-up, that applies across the board for all d20 character development: why do you get instant increases in spell availability? or instant increases in skills across the board? Why not 1 skill point here, one skill point there, one spell slot here and one spell slot there? What you're commenting on is a limitation of Level based games in general were you periodically get large discrete packages of increases; if you want more granular/gradual development, you go with character point/development point based games)

Be happy with what you have, if you aren't then change it to fit your needs.

No problem with that. But I'm not going to go out and spend money on something that I see as completely breaking with its intended genre, nor will I recommend that others buy it (I will recommend that they do NOT buy it, as I have). Further, as an empowered user of the internet, if I decide to share my opinion about it for others to also think about and consider, I will. And have.

 

[kiln publications]

Then go sell your book on Ebay and go post your "reviews" somewhere else instead of the company that put the book out. That is tacky. August must be doing something right, the good comments outweigh BY FAR the bad ones. Not to mention he is putting out another book this month. Which leaves me to say. where is your book this month, or the past year? That is coming from my right also to post. But let's have some tack here. It is not good to go to the website that produces the book and tell people don't buy it just because you don't like the rules written in it. If you can do better go put out your own book and let's see the sales numbers next year. Back up your words and put out that "#1 selling book". Good luck!

 

[Stratos]

Wowzers! And people complain that I'm "wordy"!

KZIN likes to write! And he's well versed & thought out. But come on man... it's just a game... and you're free to adapt it to suit your individual or group needs... that's part of the fun of the game... and the primary role of a good GM... know your group and tell them an appropriate story!

- Stratos

 

[kzin]

like in some similar thread on rpg.net (i belive it wasattatched to the review of this book):
the problem is that its not only cyber that should have and an affect on loss of self but allso ones actions, them being forced or not. for that i point you to vampire and theyre humanity scale...

Just to be clear, I have no problem with humanity loss and loss of self as a basis of story and behavior. You double-cross your partners to get ahead in the story, you lose some Self. A little kid is hacking for fun, stumbles onto a key secret he doesn't even recognize, and doesn't even know it's a Yakuza mainframe ... you take the job to kill him and his family because it's money and his life is cheap ... you lose some Self. These are elements of the dystopian world of cyberpunk.

What I object to is tying it in any way to the presence of cyberware in your body, or using that as a limit to how much cyberware you can implant in your character. That is not an element of the dystopian world of cyberpunk.

 

[kzin]

Then go sell your book on Ebay and go post your "reviews" somewhere else instead of the company that put the book out. That is tacky. August must be doing something right, the good comments outweigh BY FAR the bad ones. Not to mention he is putting out another book this month. Which leaves me to say. where is your book this month, or the past year? That is coming from my right also to post. But let's have some tack here. It is not good to go to the website that produces the book and tell people don't buy it just because you don't like the rules written in it. If you can do better go put out your own book and let's see the sales numbers next year. Back up your words and put out that "#1 selling book". Good luck!

a) What does "sell" and "sales" have to do with quality? Possibly the best RPG I have ever come across was free.

b) I have put up 3 or 4 games on the net in the past, with varying degrees of acceptance (and all free). And, as a side note, part of the nature of publishing is being criticized. It goes with the territory. (and if you think my criticism has been overly rude, aggressive, or tacky, you should read more literary critics)

c) what better place to discuss (both the good and the bad) a product, and give a review, than on the forum put up by the company that produces it? Are you saying we should only be "yes men"? That would seem to me to make the forum useless. Some of the best feedback comes from your critics, not your supporters.

d) I'm not normally a diction nazi, but I had to mention this one: the word you want is "tact" not "tack". lack of tact -> tacky. Tack -> steering across the wind in a sail boat. Though, I disagree that tacky applies here. Perhaps one or two of my comments near the end were rude (for which I am sorry, I could have stated my opinion without that jab), but stating my opinion on their own boards is not tacky.

 

[Stratos]

Ok Old Bear... come in and shut this one down. Critisism and critique are good when constructive and only when asked for. This thread, IMO, has gone on too long already!

- Stratos

 

[kiln publications]

Kzin,
Tommorow go into Pizza Hut or Mc Donald's and start telling everybody how bad their food is and not to buy it. See what happens. This is a free society and we are free to make our remarks BUT there is a time and place for everything. Read the other boards, they are not all "yes" men. The main point is you come out of nowhere and start posting "shame on you" comments (which I am glad to see you recognize now). If you would have said a 'cool idea would be....' that would be fine. Don't worry I checked my spelling on this message......

 

[kzin]

Perhaps one or two of my comments near the end were rude (for which I am sorry, I could have stated my opinion without that jab).

I just wanted to draw that out into its own post, so that it's not just buried in another post. Attacking Mongoose in that comment probably was going over the line of manners, for which I am sorry. I could, and should, have made my point without that jab.

(I would still recommend against buying any cyberpunk product that uses an HC type system, though ... but I do so on a level of genre idealism, not personal grudges)

 

[kiln publications]

OK I am done and I have said my mind. Case closed!