Note to Cyberpunk RPG Authors

[psyclonejack]

Where I agree on some levels with you Kzin, (Don't get a big head, I agree with terrorism on some levels as well) I disagree with you on more levels than I agree. As a long time Cyberpunk player, I could point out many, many holes in the R. Talsorian system that does not relate well to the Gibson / Cyberpunk novels, or reality. But we are discussing ideas, concepts, and moral dilimas. Those are emotional topics, and topics that do not allow themselves to be written into rules. Therefore, those must be ROLEPLAYED. Proper Roleplaying, needs no rules, only willing participants.

Because of this no set of rules will please everyone, and if you can't endorse the product, that is fine, many here will. Barnum and Bailey I believe said it best, "You can please some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time."

Clearly Kzin isn't pleased. Wait, lets announce that, the kids in the back didn't hear it . . .

[PA system on.]
[Burst of static.]
ATTENTION!!
ATTENTION POSTERS!!
KZIN DOES NOT LIKE CYBERNET.
THAT IS ALL. CARRY ON.
[static sound again.]
CLEANUP ISLE 9.
AND WOULD THE OWNER OF THE GREEN DODGE PLEASE TURN YOUR HEADLIGHTS OFF.
I AM TIRED OF HAVING CUSTOMERS TELL ME THEY ARE ON!
[burst of static]
[PA system off]


PsyJack

 

[E Nicely]

Ok Old Bear... come in and shut this one down. Critisism and critique are good when constructive and only when asked for. This thread, IMO, has gone on too long already!

- Stratos

I'll second this. The lack of flaming is one of the reasons I keep comong back here. Don't get me wrong, I can and have flamed elsewhere (sometimes quite well) but the level of civility here is very refreshing. A flame is still a flame even if it's well-put. This discussion has ceased to be constructive.

And Old Bear: Will we ever have the "Report this post to a moderator" function?

 

[August]

Kzin, the apology is understood and accepted. Thank you for having the decency to offer it. You raised many good points about the Cyberpunk genre and the general lack of solid examples of cyberpsychosis and dehumanizing through mechanical augmentation. I hope to see your take on how a Self score could or might not be used in your version of the game. If you don't, that would be a loss to the community, so please consider doing so.

Take care,
-August

 

[slingbld]

So let me get this straight...

Instead of Self points, which you see as an arbitrary, foriegn concept not found in anything but a few cyberpunk stories, you would rather see a system of attunement points per level that would allow people to get more complicated cyberware as they become better at their professions (most of which have very little to do with the physical body)?

I can certainly see how that is less arbitrary and better grounded in the cyberpunk genre. :shock:

Not to disparage the idea, since it is actually not a bad alternate system, but please give us some credit for having done our research. One of William Gibson (and P.K. Dick) 's guiding pronciples in their dystopian veiw of the fututre is the de-humanizing of mankind through exposure and acceptance of machines into their lives, their bodies, and their very souls.

Take care,
-A

I REALY hafta agree with M.A. here. Both authors he mentioned are considered to be THE authors of the genre. Many of thier stories, while not outright telling you "Ever since I got this cyber arm, I'm feeling a little psycho". Thier stories continually have the undertones of the humanity being stripped away from those who embrace the new realities of the dark future.

I feel having some sort of loss depicted as a loss in sanity, soul, whatever is a needed element to any game that's set in that genre.

Also, a level dependent system is even MORE arbitrary than what M.A. did!

Peace,
Slingbld~

 

[hobgoblin]

like in some similar thread on rpg.net (i belive it wasattatched to the review of this book):
the problem is that its not only cyber that should have and an affect on loss of self but allso ones actions, them being forced or not. for that i point you to vampire and theyre humanity scale...

What I object to is tying it in any way to the presence of cyberware in your body, or using that as a limit to how much cyberware you can implant in your character. That is not an element of the dystopian world of cyberpunk.

if you dont like it change it. or go play burned chrome or whatever its called as there the rules only uses money to limit the cyber. personalyi suspend my disbelif when it comes to stuff like essence, self and similar as they are there for a reason in the game. they may not fit the cyberpunk canon (if there is anything like that) but they work nicely as a stopgap against people that cyber into the stratosphere.

but like i hintet at in my old post, im working on a system where your cyber dont force you directly to go down into mental hell but it will make it easyer as when you do actions that are moraly questionable you at the same time may think about the hardware you have in your body that are not there for medical use but there to push you beyond the human norm and then ask yourself what you have become, machine, god, something bigger? or are you still human?

that is what cyberpsycosis is to me, a hip relacement is a medical implant to help you live a normal life, same so with a pacemaker (cybereyes and ears are in a greyzone i know). but when you start pileing on cyberware that enables you to lift stuff way above the norm, run faster, see heat, uv and whatsnot and so on then the brain may well start going down the trail of "hell im more then human, im in fact godlike!"...

 

[Anonymous]

I think in Unearthed Arcanan from Wizards of the Coast there is a sanity varient that u might like kzin.
Other then that, I like the humanity score lost. but there are somethings I dont like, so my buds and I change them, but we dont preach about how bad it is and refuse to buy it. A little fix here and an overclock there helps a lot of things.

 

[Socket]

<big snip>
that is what cyberpsycosis is to me, a hip relacement is a medical implant to help you live a normal life, same so with a pacemaker (cybereyes and ears are in a greyzone i know). but when you start pileing on cyberware that enables you to lift stuff way above the norm, run faster, see heat, uv and whatsnot and so on then the brain may well start going down the trail of "hell im more then human, im in fact godlike!"...

I play along similar lines. I use verison of the cyberware that doesn't take away your self score, they are things that help you lead a "normal" life and they have grades just like cyberware, gamma being basic and functional and anyone can tell you haveiit to alpha that looks 100% natural and can match your DNA (or is grown from your DNA). But they also do not do any more than replicate the organ that they are replacing. They are average they do not improve you to superhuman levels. IMC you can get new eyes that don't cost you self points but that's all they are organs to allow you to see with normal human vision and cannot be upgraded or have cybernetic options (but you can pick color and the like). To get a "real" cybereye you would have to remove this implant.

Socket

 

[Qjedi]

* Grins wickedly *
I know this topic is a bit old, but I am not just trying to bump it here.

I think that the dehumanizing effect of cybernetics in a person are something that is made obvious through roleplay.
I liked the humanity rules in RTG's cyberpunk, but I found that if I got rid of them and limited things by space considerations or by making the players actually go out, find the implants, find a doctor to install them, avoid the police or get the permits to install them, have the surgery done and then have the world go on around them while they healed up, that people were only interested in minor implants and legal or semi-legal ones or else they started off being owned by some corporation and doing what they were told, or else being hunted and bringing death and destruction to those around them.
This was even more true when we got into Night's Edge (The Vampy/werewolfy fun stuff) and all of the humanity lost was due to actions and the history of the characters themselves. The things they had done for money, contrasted with what they might see if they went walking into a Beaverville mall on the trail of someone who was doing something bad to the people of their neighborhood. The PC's became almost avatistic (?) and godlike in their outlook, taking care of the innocent in their neighborhoods by committing atrocities upon the criminal element who had become their chosen enemies or returning destruction to the megacorporations who would test new drugs in the water of a run down part of town or give away free samples and test the people who took them up on their "offer".
Anyhoo, I think that's a good amount of ramble to see if it can get conversation rolling on the idea again and let me just say that I agree, in essence with the opinions posted before this, in various ways. I quote Ben Kenobi here: "He is more machine than man now, twisted and evil."

Later!

 

[HellHound]

IMO, a VERY core element of Cyberpunk is the duality of:

- the dehumanizing effect of technology
- the humanization of technology

AI's represent the second, and humanity loss the first.

 

[Stratos]

Man vs. Machine. That is the essense of cyberpunk for me.

God creates Man. Man creates Machine. Man becomes a god. Machine overtakes Man. Machine becomes a god. Man must reclaim what he lost - his humanity & often turning to a diety or God in the process for strength - and Man fights Machine... hopefully winning... because there can be no compromise as long as Man is in the equation!

IMO.

- Stratos

 

[Qjedi]

IMO, a VERY core element of Cyberpunk is the duality of:

- the dehumanizing effect of technology
- the humanization of technology

AI's represent the second, and humanity loss the first.

The question, Hellhound, is, "Do you think there need to be rules for cybernetics reducing your humanity?" or "Do you think it should be roleplayed out without a major rules element involved?"
I personally think that the rules element is misplaced when directly relating cybernetics to humanity, but it does have some impact.

 

[sonny sixshooter]

Ahh but rules are mere guidelines. The great thing about the rules regarding loss of self is that they are easy to use for new game masters. And ifyou don't like it, change it. It really is that simple. For once.