l33tpenguin
Mongoose
This thread isn't dead? I've was gone for like a month!
Not Another White Star Thread (TM)
- Thread starter Hindsight
- Start date
David Anla Shok'
Mongoose
l33tpenguin said:
We've just been keeping it luke warm for you
Had to be away for a few days and miss all the fun...
Kosh - you listed lots of weapons... most of which only appear in the front arc of most ships. The whitestar is a specialist in getting behind ships, and most ships couldn't get it back in arc even with a come about. The whitestar can often find a spot that is simply impossible to get a shot at, regardless of who won initiative, who out numbered who and what SA's are done.
You commented on the tourney's you ran. If those are the chicago ones I'm thinking of I may have played in them. At least the local ones I played in, they were both won by minbari (with the tougher minbari ships) and the ISA placed second. In the other tourneys I played in, the winning fleets didn't fight the ISA and the ISA did fight itself... thus negating its advantage. You have to go beyond just tourney results to understand fleet strength.
Okay, catching up all done...
Folks are right, if the most effective way to play something, by the rules as written, is annoying, it needs to be changed.
Trying to only play with folks who only play the way you want them to, is just a different form of house rules, don't claim otherwise.
Eighteen to fifteen on beam range is irrelevant on something the speed/maneuver of the whitestar. It does not significantly effect its margin of error, though it does reduce it slightly.
How much would we be arguing about this if e-mines only reduced dodge by 1? Or had been written to only hit on 6 instead of against hull (with AP/SAP). It's an issue with making something dependent on a trait for half its points... and then putting stuff in the game that can bypass half the ship. Not a good idea.
Ripple
Kosh - you listed lots of weapons... most of which only appear in the front arc of most ships. The whitestar is a specialist in getting behind ships, and most ships couldn't get it back in arc even with a come about. The whitestar can often find a spot that is simply impossible to get a shot at, regardless of who won initiative, who out numbered who and what SA's are done.
You commented on the tourney's you ran. If those are the chicago ones I'm thinking of I may have played in them. At least the local ones I played in, they were both won by minbari (with the tougher minbari ships) and the ISA placed second. In the other tourneys I played in, the winning fleets didn't fight the ISA and the ISA did fight itself... thus negating its advantage. You have to go beyond just tourney results to understand fleet strength.
Okay, catching up all done...
Folks are right, if the most effective way to play something, by the rules as written, is annoying, it needs to be changed.
Trying to only play with folks who only play the way you want them to, is just a different form of house rules, don't claim otherwise.
Eighteen to fifteen on beam range is irrelevant on something the speed/maneuver of the whitestar. It does not significantly effect its margin of error, though it does reduce it slightly.
How much would we be arguing about this if e-mines only reduced dodge by 1? Or had been written to only hit on 6 instead of against hull (with AP/SAP). It's an issue with making something dependent on a trait for half its points... and then putting stuff in the game that can bypass half the ship. Not a good idea.
Ripple
l33tpenguin
Mongoose
Juzza said:
Now thats just silly talk
Kosh127
Mongoose
Ripple wrote
Kosh - you listed lots of weapons... most of which only appear in the front arc of most ships. The whitestar is a specialist in getting behind ships, and most ships couldn't get it back in arc even with a come about. The whitestar can often find a spot that is simply impossible to get a shot at, regardless of who won initiative, who out numbered who and what SA's are done.
You commented on the tourney's you ran. If those are the chicago ones I'm thinking of I may have played in them. At least the local ones I played in, they were both won by minbari (with the tougher minbari ships) and the ISA placed second. In the other tourneys I played in, the winning fleets didn't fight the ISA and the ISA did fight itself... thus negating its advantage. You have to go beyond just tourney results to understand fleet strength.
Okay, catching up all done...
Folks are right, if the most effective way to play something, by the rules as written, is annoying, it needs to be changed.
Trying to only play with folks who only play the way you want them to, is just a different form of house rules, don't claim otherwise.
Eighteen to fifteen on beam range is irrelevant on something the speed/maneuver of the whitestar. It does not significantly effect its margin of error, though it does reduce it slightly.
ok. Yes several of the ships at can hit on the front. ISA should be out numbered and as such you can place your ships togo for his. The point of the weopen list was to show all the guns that COULD shoot back. its a very large list. I did not say its going to be a free be that you will always be able to shoot back.
Yes you did play in one of them but only 1 did the bone heads win and there was no ISA in that one. (the one you were in)
"Folks are right, if the most effective way to play something, by the rules as written, is annoying, it needs to be changed."
Well yes it may stink and yes it nay be annoying but thats is how the game makers want it to be. If YOU want to only play with people that want to change all the rules that you donlt like to you then THAT is playing a house game. Don't try and pretned its any other way. Plus I did not say it shouldn't be changed I just said don't make up changes by yourself and call it the designers rules.
you can go play anyone in the world in any game as long as you use only the rules its NOT house gamming. Its they way the game is made to be played. It stops power gammers from finding the holes in wording to twist it. just take it as is. and yes some rules are written very very badly and most likly mean something else. However its not my place to say if they are or aren't its my place to ask the forums Q&A.
the gun change is pretty big at 15 iches a 16.66% range decrease and the special rule that nurfs there firepower on close blast doors is a major change. you will only get .5 to 1.25 hits thats a big diffrence than before.
Kosh - you listed lots of weapons... most of which only appear in the front arc of most ships. The whitestar is a specialist in getting behind ships, and most ships couldn't get it back in arc even with a come about. The whitestar can often find a spot that is simply impossible to get a shot at, regardless of who won initiative, who out numbered who and what SA's are done.
You commented on the tourney's you ran. If those are the chicago ones I'm thinking of I may have played in them. At least the local ones I played in, they were both won by minbari (with the tougher minbari ships) and the ISA placed second. In the other tourneys I played in, the winning fleets didn't fight the ISA and the ISA did fight itself... thus negating its advantage. You have to go beyond just tourney results to understand fleet strength.
Okay, catching up all done...
Folks are right, if the most effective way to play something, by the rules as written, is annoying, it needs to be changed.
Trying to only play with folks who only play the way you want them to, is just a different form of house rules, don't claim otherwise.
Eighteen to fifteen on beam range is irrelevant on something the speed/maneuver of the whitestar. It does not significantly effect its margin of error, though it does reduce it slightly.
ok. Yes several of the ships at can hit on the front. ISA should be out numbered and as such you can place your ships togo for his. The point of the weopen list was to show all the guns that COULD shoot back. its a very large list. I did not say its going to be a free be that you will always be able to shoot back.
Yes you did play in one of them but only 1 did the bone heads win and there was no ISA in that one. (the one you were in)
"Folks are right, if the most effective way to play something, by the rules as written, is annoying, it needs to be changed."
Well yes it may stink and yes it nay be annoying but thats is how the game makers want it to be. If YOU want to only play with people that want to change all the rules that you donlt like to you then THAT is playing a house game. Don't try and pretned its any other way. Plus I did not say it shouldn't be changed I just said don't make up changes by yourself and call it the designers rules.
you can go play anyone in the world in any game as long as you use only the rules its NOT house gamming. Its they way the game is made to be played. It stops power gammers from finding the holes in wording to twist it. just take it as is. and yes some rules are written very very badly and most likly mean something else. However its not my place to say if they are or aren't its my place to ask the forums Q&A.
the gun change is pretty big at 15 iches a 16.66% range decrease and the special rule that nurfs there firepower on close blast doors is a major change. you will only get .5 to 1.25 hits thats a big diffrence than before.
Who was second in the one of yours I played in? Do you remember? I thought that was the ISA player I hadn't met before, but that may have been the next one. I played in a few so maybe thinking of another one. I just don't remember one that had no ISA player...
On the rules as written... yes I actually believe in it. My group doesn't play with house rules right now, though we've occasionally gotten a rule wrong. But we also don't get up on our high horse and tell folks that the rules are fine, just don't play with folks who play perfectly legal ways you don't like. That's just another way of creating a house rule... if you want to be invited to play in my house you don't snipe from 18 (or 15) on cbd.
No one is asking for free attacks on the whitestar, but you percentages don't mean much, because they don't change the tactical situation. It's not actually a change in firepower... or the situation everyone is talking about with the whitestar flipping behind and staying out of the range of secondary weapons.
Most people can't get their front weapons around on an all whitestar fleet, or at most about a third of them by flying over each other. The weapons you listed are almost all front weapons... folks are saying that those weapons don't matter to much.
I did agree that the SA restriction helps... just that the range restriction is not enough to fix the issue.
Anyway, we just disagree.
Ripple
On the rules as written... yes I actually believe in it. My group doesn't play with house rules right now, though we've occasionally gotten a rule wrong. But we also don't get up on our high horse and tell folks that the rules are fine, just don't play with folks who play perfectly legal ways you don't like. That's just another way of creating a house rule... if you want to be invited to play in my house you don't snipe from 18 (or 15) on cbd.
No one is asking for free attacks on the whitestar, but you percentages don't mean much, because they don't change the tactical situation. It's not actually a change in firepower... or the situation everyone is talking about with the whitestar flipping behind and staying out of the range of secondary weapons.
Most people can't get their front weapons around on an all whitestar fleet, or at most about a third of them by flying over each other. The weapons you listed are almost all front weapons... folks are saying that those weapons don't matter to much.
I did agree that the SA restriction helps... just that the range restriction is not enough to fix the issue.
Anyway, we just disagree.
Ripple
Foxmeister
Mongoose
Kosh127 said:
Actually, it's an irrelevant change for many races. For example, when facing the Narn, because once it is behind the Narn ships the Narn can't return fire anyway so the WS doesn't need to worry about using CBD for the most part.
Yes, you can argue that the Narn player needs to use covering ships to protect his rear, and yes this tactic may work occasionally, but it doesn't change the fact that the WS, even with this change, is best employed sniping at the rear or soft arcs of its enemies and this is *not* representative of the ship in the show which is regularly seen getting up close and personal with its enemies.
Regards,
Dave
l33tpenguin
Mongoose
Foxmeister said:
fixed it for you
Foxmeister
Mongoose
l33tpenguin said:
Indeed! But i bet there is one example where it does stand off, and I didn't want to fall into the trap!
Regards,
Dave
. O wellmollari_uk
Mongoose
Moves first, fires first is a better fix for init sinking but requires some tracking method like cards.
Although it doesn't really help with 1 big ship vs lots of small it does with normal sized games.
Although it doesn't really help with 1 big ship vs lots of small it does with normal sized games.
