Non-cannon ship designs

[Centauri_Admiral]

Okay so this is just a general question, not a rant, I just wondered what the general opinion out there is on this topic:

Non-cannon ship designs, which end up as models, do we like them as nice miniatures and leave it there?

OR

Do we make rules for them, and generally accept them into the game, not to say that the models aren't nice but my question is relating to game balance.

Effectively we can make up rules for a ship that negates a weakness in a given fleet, post it up here, then have a debate on it, playtest etc [assuming there is a model for it like Urobachs valerius] and effectively sanction a new ship into the game. Remember this is not a rant I'm asking for opinions.

Do we think this unbalances the fleets and thus the game, or not? Do we leave the art of models and rules to mongoose; or do we as hobbyists do our bit as well?

Not to say I don't like the models being put out, I want to have a go myself, but I'm only concerned that by creating all these lovely new designs, models, and rules [given that sometimes we are using the model but using cannon rules for it valerius/octurion for instance] is taking the game away from its roots.

I'm not sure where I stand on this. I think the newer designs from mongoose in armageddon have unbalanced things slightly. What does ya'll think?

 

[Da Boss]

Well I think there is the official and the non official - big difference

I and others have made up whole swathes of ships but they can only be used if people want to - no way official. Its a natural thing I think and people enjoy doing it.........(well I do)

does it hurt the game - hell I hope not..................

There are also canon, pretty much/ sort of cannon (AOG - JMS said it is ?), vaguely cannon (stuff mentioned in books etc) and not canon (anything else) :?

There is an argument that Mongoose sets its own Canon as it is creating its own version of the B5 Universe - and even then some Mongoose Canon contradicts itself - RPG to ACTA in the ships stats / design/ fluff...........

I imagine it is often difficult to try and make a fleet based game on the sometimes flimsy ( or for some fleets) absolutely non exisistant on screen evidence. Its always going to be a "version" of what we see - people will debate what bits mean what - what a blue beam is compared to a green beam. Also ship strengths and weaknesses depend on the plot as much as anything so will fluctuate..........

The good thing is, I hope, you can either use or ignore anything non official.

Also Mongoose makes models and games to sell - they are going to want to produce a good variety of ships to keep interest, sales and lets face it, hopeflly keep us happy.......

not sure if this helps or even answers you question really...............

 

[Poi]

A number of issues raised.

Sticking to canon designs only would leave far too few designs for the game to be any fun at all. Narn fleets with a choice of just two ships.

No Abbai, Dilgar, Gaim, Hurr or pak'ma'ra fleet.

Not sure what you mean about Armageddon unbalancing things. All those designs have been revised for 2e, so any balance issues should (?) have been resolved.

 

[[Omicron]Urobach]

i like non-canon designs. of course....i have do a lot... :lol:

my mean is that an new ship must looks like "Babylon 5"
Not like an toy ( "Armagedon" was an Armagedon in my eyes.) or something else.
Adira, Liati... :? an Narn, EA etc. Ship must looks like an ship from this race.
You must see it and say that is "definitly" an ship from this species.
The design, the proportions, the elegance etc...all this is essential for an good design in my eyes.
No loveless computer-created trash in mass-production....

 

[inq101]

I have no problem with non-canon stuff as long as it does not unbalance things, it's in the spirit of the fleet AND theres a reason for it. I don't like things along the line on 'I make a Narn carrier/ Abbai assault ship/ Gaim dreadnought because they don't have one.' Don't make a ship that does the same job as another ship already in that fleet.

If a fleet has a weakness work around it, don't make a new ship to fill the gap.

 

[Ripple]

I have to agree with Inq101 and other's here...

As long as it fits the feel, great. If my group wants it we can pull it out and enjoy it. If I really don't like what I'm seeing from Mongoose I can use it to proxy something else, until Mongoose gets the hint that they dropped the ball. I hate the Lakara and you'll see a new conversion from me soon, but it will almost certainly generate a stat line as well... just for fun.

And sometimes a race is still missing something that is in flavor for them. Brakiri got a scout, they are economic exploiters... of course they have someone out there looking for new stuff to exploit. Abbai carrier that is not about risking Abbai lives... drone ships... doesn't have to be better than the main rulebook, just different.

I don't think folks are, for the most part, trying to fill tactical holes in the fleets, Vorlons/Shadows excepted as they are very very lean, ... as much as give a few more options. Mongoose will make options eventually, they'll need to to keep the game expanding, we're just running ahead.

Ripple

 

[inq101]

Best example of non-canon ship I've ever heard of was a campaign where a raider fleet spent 6 games salvaging a Sharlin someone else had killed, capturing a shipyard, toeing it to the shipyard and stealing guns to put onto the hull all the time fighting off Mimbari patrols trying to recover or destroy the ship. They would have ended up with a stealthy Armageddon pl battlewagon if they managed it. Didn't even come close.

Worst example of non-canon stuff was a kid who came into a wargames club saying 'I've got a new 40k army' before producing blobs of painted putty on bases. He'd made up rules that said that these thing were immune to ranged weapons except flamers and in combat could only be chopped in half, leaving 2 smaller blobs. He was upset when no-one wanted to play against them.

 

[Centauri_Admiral]

I agree with you all, please don't think I'm picking faults with non-canon/made up stuff, I'm not at all. I've got one urobachs valerius and very nice it is too.

What I was getting at, was trying to gauge peoples general opinion, or rather the opinion of the majority.

It seems evident then that we all don't mind new ships, not from mongoose, but who makes the new stat lines for them? Four or five people could come up with their own, which one do you use, or do you use which ever you feel like?

The crux of the matter for me, and the reason why i asked this in the first place, is in my club we are now getting something of an influx of these ships in our games.

I have the valerius, a friend of mine has charybdis and quasars, another friend of mine who is a bloody good sculptor/worker of plasticard is slowly but surely making new ships based on designs he's picked up on the net. Some of them have got rules, like the charybdis, the others haven't.

I guess I kind of think that to have these new models, but to just use them as a "different looking one of the same" i.e valerius follows stats for octurion , is a waste.

So eventhough these models would be "unofficial"; is there still a place on these boards where we, the gamers and enthusiasts can post these ships and get a collective final rules set. Sort of an offically sanctioned "unofficial" ship.

If there is then I've totally missed it.

Pm me and ask me to clarify if none of that makes sense.lol

 

[Poi]

Go ahead and post. Plenty of folks here who will help balance new stat lines etc.

I suspect the only way they'd get sanctioned by Mongoose would be in Signs & Portents, so once designs and rules are finalised, send them in as an article.

 

[Funbeast]

My view is that non canon ships are ok as long as they are canon-ISH, I.e. They look the part of the fleet that they are made for and have the FEEL of that fleet (no brakiri fighters that can take nials in a dog-fight with out a lot of luck and sweat for example).
Also the use of such ships should be agreed upon by all players in a game/campaign and the stats set and agreed upon and then not changed mid point in said game/campaign.
It should also be noted that such ships are not available for use in Mongoose tourneys and probably not in those organised by people other than Mongoose.

That said in our club campaign i do have 4 Charybdis and 4 Quasars in my fleet (thank you Urobach), and if the others had argued it probably wouldn't have stopped me as i'm bigger than all of them AND the campaign organiser :wink: :lol: (plus i need all the help i can get against Centauri_Admirals fan heads, though his Vorlons are hard NOT to beat being knocked out of the campaign in THREE BATTLES :lol: :? :lol:


Sorry Rich........NOT :lol: 8) :lol: 8) :twisted:

 

[Centauri_Admiral]

Sorry . . . how long did it take me to beat your EA fleet on friday? Three turns? How many losses did I suffer? None?

 

[Funbeast]

HHhhmmm could have sworn i saw a Liati reduced to molecules.
Anyway i let you win to set you up for a fall at swindon in jan make you think you can beat EA and help the Centauri lose through over confidence :wink:

 

[Ripple]

Agreeing on statlines for alternate ships across the boards would be hard. We could put a place up in player resources for a 'designer' approved set of statlines maybe. In the end there are enough competing ideas of what folks what the game to be like and what they think the ship should so that you need one person who gets the rubber stamp.

One example I can give is the Abbai, depending on what you go by they are very hard to actually stat. Models (clearly unarmed except for the Lakara), other stats (real discussions on whether shield is worth it, and whether the range works, so far only swarm fleets of abbai work), canon (barely a whisper here from the shows) fluff (they are 'armed pacifists' with a homicidal religious streak if pushed).

I liked hiffano's stuff for them, wasn't as happy with the Darkness rising command ship and carrier (though both good efforts, just not quite what I would have done) and am considering a completely different approach to an up pl'd Bimith (I like the fleet defender with grav shifters and quad bolters with T combat laser/low ad) and [pilgrimage ship that gets repurposed during the jihad.

Ripple