Noble vs Temptress balance

[treeplanter]

Hello. I've not check the temptress class much till yesterday, but now i'm making a villain for the next game, a temptress/noble.

Reading the class, I questionned myself about the 2 classes.

Noble: 4 skills point, d8 HP, high will save. Martial weapon and Heavy armor, average Parry low dodge.

Temptress: 8 skills, d6 HP, high Reflex and Will. Simple weapon and whip. Average dodge, low parry.

So far so good. Noble is a bit more brute thanks too weapon and armor, and HP. Problem is that weapon and armor proficiency is so easy to get just by multiclassing with any other class.

So now let look at the class early class ability.

from level 1-7, noble get Title, wealth, Regional feature +2, lead by exemple +2, 1 social ability and Improved Leadership.

Temptress for the same level get the equivalent of 3 noble social abilities (Comeliness, Savoir faire and Ally). She may get 2 more (via secret art) or have access to sorcery or sneak attack (with wich she get a free feint per combat). Admirer is Wealth on steroid, and finally she get ton of bonus to social skills.

It seem all left for the noble is that at least his Regional feature boost his attack with his regional weapon, keeping him at a decent attack bonus.

Oh and Inspire is lot better than Lead by exemple too...

What do you guy think?

 

[Jeffreywns]

The difference is Title, Rank hath it's Privileges, and all that encompasses. Everything else, like you pointed out, can be evened out by multi classing. In most cases Noble has to be picked at level one. The other way requires more than "Cool- I'm Fourth level now, think I'll turn into a Prince".
The Temptress is the manipulator, involved in High Society circles by willpower, charm and guile. But still only window dressing and trophies for those who truly belong. Game wise this translates into behind the scenes power and high charisma skills. In a male dominated society it's an edge.
Male Tempters are just as powerful in regions with powerful Queens and Priestesses. and less expected.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

The Manipulator is a multi-class variant of Temptress/Noble in Hyborias Fallen. An interesting option.

 

[Jeffreywns]

I've always liked the Temptress class since it came out. Perfect for the setting, considering the stories that involved them. Both male and female versions plagued Conan throughout the Ace Book series (my Canon).

 

[zozotroll]

It really depends on how you play. In my game, the Noble is doing OK. A temptress would not shine at all. But that is due to the players choices. They are not happy playing in the circles a Temptress would do well in.

 

[Vambelte]

I give nobles a bonus feat on levels 3, 8, 13 and 18. Those are the blank levels on the noble table.

 

[zozotroll]

Not a bad idea. I need to think on that a bit.

 

[Jeffreywns]

That's not entirely true.
Level 3- Language bonus, Feat, 4+Int skill points, D8 hp+ Con
Level 8- Ability increase, 4+ Int skill points, D8 hp+ Con
Level 13- +2 hp, 4+int skill points
Level 18- Language bonus, All Ability increase, 4+ Int skills, +2 hp
Better than some, worse than others, but still something.
Although neither in my groups play style would shine either. However the Stygian Scholar took the Noble Blood feat and it has been a factor in several instances.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

I use the Temptress as an NPC class, (along with the scholar). Its definitely part of the flavour of the Hyborian Kingdoms, but not as a PC, IMHO.

One advantage of the Noble is that he is RICH! RICH, I tell you! As it says in the book somewhere (IDHMBOM), Tempresses are usualy skint.

 

[treeplanter]

false

Temptress get 100sp/charisma/month at level 7th. (Admirer special ability).

So for a 18 charisma temptress, it's 400 sp/month, or 4800 a years. Way higher than the 1000 sp the noble with the same charisma score receive each years. AND you get the benifit of the Ally special ability.

I think a Temptress/Soldier is just plain better than a straight class noble.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

false

Temptress get 100sp/charisma/month at level 7th. (Admirer special ability).

So for a 18 charisma temptress, it's 400 sp/month, or 4800 a years. Way higher than the 1000 sp the noble with the same charisma score receive each years. AND you get the benifit of the Ally special ability.

I think a Temptress/Soldier is just plain better than a straight class noble.

Well, no one is saying that the Noble isnt slightly underpowered, but the benefits you mention are only available to the Temptress if she stays in one area, she gets nothing if she has to move around (at least, for a month). And this, only at level 7 or above.

The Noble is entitled to at least five times the starting money, he gets full equipment, a regular stipend at 1st level and the rights to hospitality and probably influence elsewhere.

Its not as cut and dried as you make out under a good GM.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Id expand and say that Nobles can have a subtle effect upon the game. Theyre not, on the face of it, the most appealing, but, in campaigns specifically geared to the actual characters involved, (like in any good campaign), the Noble can shine.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Oh, and a Noble can have lots of 'Allies' too.

 

[Vambelte]

That's not entirely true.
Level 3- Language bonus, Feat, 4+Int skill points, D8 hp+ Con
Level 8- Ability increase, 4+ Int skill points, D8 hp+ Con
Level 13- +2 hp, 4+int skill points
Level 18- Language bonus, All Ability increase, 4+ Int skills, +2 hp
Better than some, worse than others, but still something.

HP increase, skill increase, ability increase those are all gained by every class, so thta's not a benefit from the Noble. If you look every other class they have something unique or a bonus feat almost every level, but the Noble have the levels 3, 8, 13 and 18 blank, they get NOTHING!

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

That's not entirely true.
Level 3- Language bonus, Feat, 4+Int skill points, D8 hp+ Con
Level 8- Ability increase, 4+ Int skill points, D8 hp+ Con
Level 13- +2 hp, 4+int skill points
Level 18- Language bonus, All Ability increase, 4+ Int skills, +2 hp
Better than some, worse than others, but still something.

HP increase, skill increase, ability increase those are all gained by every class, so thta's not a benefit from the Noble. If you look every other class they have something unique or a bonus feat almost every level, but the Noble have the levels 3, 8, 13 and 18 blank, they get NOTHING!

I think giving a Noble extra features at these supposed 'blank' levels is a bit extreme, its a bit too much I think. The Noble starts with some pretty good features, everyone else plays 'catchup' in a sense.

Yes, after certain levels, others superceed the Noble, but I think ast this point most Nobles will be multiclassing anyway.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Yes, sorry for the amount of posting, but I just remembered that the Noble gets a D8 for his hit die, the Temptress only a D6.

I suppose the Noble cant be too thrilling in the game, its ok for there to be lots of barbarians and thieves running around, but not so good if theres a party of 6 nobles usually, unless its a very unique campaign.

The Noble does ok in comparison to the other classes though.

 

[Jeffreywns]

Please don't apologize for expressing interest in the original post! It's interesting to see other opinions.
Vambelte, if we consider this nothing then you should include all the classes that "only" get a +1 to an existing Special Ability shouldn't we? Like Trap Sense, Seamanship, Favoured Terrain. That was the line I was thinking along. In that case Nobles are not the only class that gets "nothing". If we exclude this then correct, Nobles have some Levels of NO THINGGGGG. Sucks to be them I guess (INSERT SMILY FACE).
Bottom line for my players is Role Playing. Only one saw the advantage in his character concept, the others will use Barbarian/Nomad Hoard when a sword point will not suffice.
I believe both Noble and Temptress are on equal footing in their fields. The Temptress running a Province and commanding troops in the field will take the extra role playing as will the Landless Baron seducing the other Nobles wives and daughters for position and favour. And my player group would wear both of their skins as trophies if it came to straight up combat.
That's my opinion, but I have run both only as NPC's and have had neither class as a PC. As for number crunching - I don't, and the sporadic part time player in my group who does is off playing D&D so who cares?
I would like to see what an actual player of either class would have to say though.

 

[treeplanter]

I would say level 3 is not exactly blank, it basicly read Leadership +1, wich sound fair enough.

In our game we gave the Noble Rally ability at 8th level, but at +1 only (and he get the full +2 at 16th). Oh he also get 6 skills points.

It's true a lot of his abilities are subjective. I guess depending on how you play Title and Rank this can make a lot of difference.

 

[treeplanter]

I think someone mentionned he gave noble an extra social ability at level 1. It look cool but now multiclassing get very good. An option I'm lurking is replacing title with a social ability at level 1, and Title become a social ability. Wich would make sense anyway cause not every noble-born are Baron or Duke.

 

[Jeffreywns]

But being the son of a Baron or Duke would still grant you the benefits of Title and Rank hath it's Priviliges. It's more the Class in Society giving it's members the special treatment they deserve.