Nike Class Battlecruiser
- Thread starter prelude_to_war
- Start date
Goldritter
Mongoose
katadder said:
On the new cruisers not.
The Marathon and Omega for example has the P-Beams without the Weak.
But 6 AD shoud be enough.
But I don´t think, that the Missiles shouldn`t loose the SL*.
But the Idea to increase the Range for the Railgun to 20" and reduce the AD to 4 is good.
with all round DD weapons the missiles really shouldnt be firing every turn. increase them to 6 if you like as slow loading but effectively with railguns and the phasing pulse and missiles firing every turn this ship is punchign above its class again. as it is like i said i think its better than any EA armageddon ships. the reason for crew level being higher is bcos you have self repair on the vessel but as its higly automated you could keep the crew level low like you have but also lower its skeletoned threshold due to all the automation.
kritikalfailure
Mongoose
Chernobyl said:
All right, Chernobyl, I'm finally going to defer to you. I think this is the most true version of the Nike that we have seen (that is still at War level). I'm going to miss the 10" speed and the 2 turns, but perhaps everyone is right that a War ship shouldn't move that fast (I still think 2 turns is reasonable, however). This ship is a straight out brawler, which I think reflects the original vision. I'm signing on with this version (pending playtesting).
prelude_to_war
Mongoose
Whoa - lot of changes since I last checked...what happened to the T missile rack? And back up to 3 troops? Self-repair made it back in? hm...will ponder this...
Right, so people should've received their minis in the first batch? How do they look? I anticipate the front antennae and maybe the side wings (still don't know how that happened) breaking off - but it's a simple matter of some glue/pinning. The next batch will have some additional packaging material added to hopefully prevent this...
Right, so people should've received their minis in the first batch? How do they look? I anticipate the front antennae and maybe the side wings (still don't know how that happened) breaking off - but it's a simple matter of some glue/pinning. The next batch will have some additional packaging material added to hopefully prevent this...
Nightmares about Minbari
Mongoose
Fraid it's not made it over the pond yet, but still hopeful that it will turn up sometime soon. Always assuming I made it into the first batch of course.
Personally I'm going to write my own stats for it as an armageddon ship to be the centrepiece of my crusade fleet, but that's just me.
Personally I'm going to write my own stats for it as an armageddon ship to be the centrepiece of my crusade fleet, but that's just me.
kritikalfailure
Mongoose
prelude_to_war said:
I think the T missile rack went because it was beginning to look more like a Vree ship than an EA one.
Not to mention that 4 AD of Heavy Missiles every turn firing out of whatever arc I damn well pleased to fire them out of may be a bit over the top.
The only thing I'd like to see back in is the 2 turns (and take away afterburner). But it's really six of one, half a dozen of the other.
By the way, am I assuming correctly that an Afterburner on non Aux craft simply allows the ship to use All Power to Engines once in a battle instead of as many times as desired?
Goldritter
Mongoose
Yes you can use Afterburner only once in a game.
So Fighters can use only once the SA but with the advantage, that they can use their SM with 50% more speed.
For Ships it will increase the Speed by 100% once in a game.
The Nike (with Afterburner) can also travel once 16" in a streight line.
So it´s a real fast Cruiser.
So Fighters can use only once the SA but with the advantage, that they can use their SM with 50% more speed.
For Ships it will increase the Speed by 100% once in a game.
The Nike (with Afterburner) can also travel once 16" in a streight line.
So it´s a real fast Cruiser.
Goldritter
Mongoose
kritikalfailure said:
No.
You can use "All Power to Engines" as often as you will.
With Afterburner you can once in a game increase your speed by 100% and not by 50% as normal with "All Power to Engines".
OK, I'm impressed by how interesting and balanced this ship is, massive compliments all round! I've been monitoring this thread but didn't want to butt in on a slightly personal discussion to those who had purchased the ship. However, now things are in their final stages (and there is a small chance Mongoose would be interested in the design) I thought I'd chip in with my opinions.Chernobyl said:
That said there are two things I'd change. One is very minor - the Railgun range to EA standard. The second is more pertinent but has a significant effect on the ship. There is no point in Self-repair unless there is significantly more crew on board than damage. With my suggested changes to the crew and damage scores you'd have a slightly more survivable ship and one you have to think about how to best use the self-repair ability rather than ignore it. Also, I've raised the crew threshold to represent the fewer crew on board, with the flight computer compensating until it's possibly lost if the ship is crippled. This should show the reliance on the technology suitably well.
Any thoughts on how that would take the Nike?
Goldritter
Mongoose
The threshold for the Crew is to high.
20 is good. If you look at other ships with Flight Coputer it is O.K.
20 is good. If you look at other ships with Flight Coputer it is O.K.
Goldritter
Mongoose
I try to make a test game with the Nike of Chernobyl with a range of 20" for the Railgun.
congratulations, you have finally created a viable EA armageddon ship. compare this to the nemesis and you will see it totally outguns it. the only thing the nemesis really has better is the beam. but the nemesis has 1 turn compared to the 2 you have put the nike back to. if the marathan is a replacement for the hyperion then surely this is a replacemnet for the omega, so 1 turn should be all it has. once again i doubt i will play this thing at war level. if its made armageddon level i may let one into a game. but lets do comparisons with the nemesis on a 1v1:
obviously the damage/crew on the nemesis is higher, and it has higher self repair in theroy, altho some turns it can be lower. your ship is slower than the nemesis, this in itself makes it more manouvreable, then it has 2 turns, very important on boresights and again more manouvrable.
the nemesis wins in boresight arc.
front arc the nemesis has 10AD of AP DD weapons and 6 AD of missiles.
the nike has 4AD of missiles, 12AD of AP DD, 4AD of AP MB, 8AD of TL AF
nike wins
port/starboard arcs
the nemesis has 8AD of AP, MB TL
the nike has 3AD of AP, MB, 10AD of AP,DD (the same as the nemesis front), 8AD of TL AF
nike wins again
aft arc
nemesis has 8AD of AP,MB,TL
nike has 6AD of AP,DD, 8AD of TL AF
close, would say draw but really think Nike edges it due to DD weapons
so apart from the boresight which the nike is more likely to get than the nemesis the nike outguns the nemesis in all arcs apart from possibly rear. now in a fleet battle its only abuot as effective as the nemesis if surrounded but in 1v1s it will totally destroy this armageddon ship and you get 2 at the PL you wanted.
you really havent created a war ship, you have created an upgunned aramgeddon ship.
obviously the damage/crew on the nemesis is higher, and it has higher self repair in theroy, altho some turns it can be lower. your ship is slower than the nemesis, this in itself makes it more manouvreable, then it has 2 turns, very important on boresights and again more manouvrable.
the nemesis wins in boresight arc.
front arc the nemesis has 10AD of AP DD weapons and 6 AD of missiles.
the nike has 4AD of missiles, 12AD of AP DD, 4AD of AP MB, 8AD of TL AF
nike wins
port/starboard arcs
the nemesis has 8AD of AP, MB TL
the nike has 3AD of AP, MB, 10AD of AP,DD (the same as the nemesis front), 8AD of TL AF
nike wins again
aft arc
nemesis has 8AD of AP,MB,TL
nike has 6AD of AP,DD, 8AD of TL AF
close, would say draw but really think Nike edges it due to DD weapons
so apart from the boresight which the nike is more likely to get than the nemesis the nike outguns the nemesis in all arcs apart from possibly rear. now in a fleet battle its only abuot as effective as the nemesis if surrounded but in 1v1s it will totally destroy this armageddon ship and you get 2 at the PL you wanted.
you really havent created a war ship, you have created an upgunned aramgeddon ship.
Oops on the two turns - as you can see from my post I didn't mean to give it that upgrade...edited above.katadder said:
As you probably know, I consider the Nemesis to be underpowered so long as its crew value stays so low - with it at about 120/20 it would be a nice balanced ship (able to take 50% more fire than at present too). This "revised" crew/damage score would be roughly double my version of the Nike.
From this point, so long as the weapons are roughly 50% stronger on the Nemesis then I'm happy.
Actually a better ship to compare the Nike to would be the SFoS Warlock. The Warlock is a tiny bit tougher, has more potent front guns and slightly less potent side and aft guns.
On your comparisons of Nemesis vs Nike weapons, not only do I disagree with your assessments but you've repeated some of the Nike's turreted weapons, using them two or three times...
Excluding the boresight (if you insist, even though this is the Nemesis's biggest forward threat, despite it being boresighted), the Nemesis still puts out roughly virtually the same damage (about 92%) as the Nike and also puts out more criticals than the Nike.katadder said:
Even matchup
Nemesis does about 140% of the Nike's damage herekatadder said:
Not even close, the railgun may be able to cover the aft but it's more often than not going to be shooting elsewhere.katadder said:
By these numbers the Nemesis would actually win on every category except maybe the front without the boresight guns and it [should have] a hugely larger ability to take damage.
You really can't include one of the Nike's feature weapons in every arc's calculations. When working out its worth, I gave it a premium for being turreted (of 25% over a front arced weapon) and still found the ship balanced. The anti-fighter guns are more relevant although again including them in every arc is a little over the top (and yes again I did count a premium for them over any other arc).
kritikalfailure
Mongoose
Triggy said:
As for the railgun, the Chronos has a 12" turret mounted one, though I could see where a larger ship would get additional range.
I think the Self-Repair is token at best (and to be useful in the campaign). EFNI doesn't make me think that this ship can miraculously fix itself in a minute (which is about a game turn, so one game = 10 minutes), just that it has self-repairing nano technology that, given enough time, can fix all but the most catastrophic damage on the ship. So yes, not all that useful when an Octurian is unloading into you, but very useful when you AJP the hell out of there and only have to pay for more crewmen.
Not to mention that EFNI states that the Nike has _less_ crewmen than the Warlock due to a high level of automation.
I'm still stuck on 2 turns though. Perhaps that'd be a good trade for keeping the railgun 12"?
Triggy said:
actually yes i can, as the original started with a 1v1 comparison so on broadside versus broadside as they pass etc the turrets will track round. as for the secondaries, it has DD weapons in every arc which the nemesis doesnt have, as well as mini beams at more range than the nemesis.
Well you're the one who was doing a 1 vs 1 (in a vacuum) comparison, I was comparing their roles in a fleet...
I don't think anybody's come up with an arguament that you'd ever take an Armageddon ship outside of a fleet.
On that basis (also given that I've hardly altered the stats from previous posters) what do you think of the ship?
I don't think anybody's come up with an arguament that you'd ever take an Armageddon ship outside of a fleet.
On that basis (also given that I've hardly altered the stats from previous posters) what do you think of the ship?
fleet role its still more than a nemesis apart from damage/crew and beam. i really dont know why they are mixing earth tech and shadow tech anyway to get these phasing pulse canons. the ships with shadow tech are almost entirely shadow tech weapons. its an armageddon class ship as it stands. too many weapons all round, not earth style in the least, and havign phasing pulse as well as turreted railguns and missiles is just taking things too far. why not add in mag guns and god knows what else and just make it the uber ship these guys just obviously want. thats the problem with custom ships, the people who make/buy them want them to be uber and this thing doesnt fit in with anything the EA makes. the nike was out before the nemesis from its in service dates, why would a newer ship like the nemesis use lesser tech? the nemesis minibeams are shorter ranged and over all it has less firepower.
