New to Rune Quest and wondering...

[Rurik]

The melee round is divided into 12 seconds, enough time to make a tactical decision, carry it out and see the results.

I admit, I always had trouble with this. One attack and one parry every twelve seconds? It felt like 300 style slo mo....

The 12 Second round was always described as a series of attacks and parries and feints and whatnot. What you were rolling for was whether any of these actually connected - or "the one that counts". Though it felt like you were rolling for each swing and parry at the table it was an abstraction of a series of maneuvers.

In addition, you had essentially one strike and one parry per round (if you had a weapon that you had not used previously during the round…or a shield. However, you could exchange your strike for another parry if you wished, or make two attacks and not parry at all

Again, this always felt very ponderous..

See above. Also, potentially 5 attacks and 5 reactions in one 5 second round seems a bit the opposite extreme.

If you have a higher DEX, you can cast more spells in a round. This doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.

Comabt actions are the new rounds. Its just that slow people miss a round now and then. Its not that different really... although I do miss the weapon length corrections I must say..

I have no disagreements here. And in the old SR system faster caster might get a spell off in the same round while a slower caster had to wait to the next round.

You have to mentally monitor or track SRs every ‘second’ of combat. In RQ3 you only monitored them once per round. You could, if you wished prepare a list or a deck of index cards and go through them in order every round. If you wished to do this in MRQ you would have to change the list every second of combat.

I'm not sure what the problem is here. RQ3 initiative also regularly changed as weapon SR modifiers came and went, depending on whether you were spellcasting or not. All that happens now is that the GM counts down instead of up. And deos it really matter that a round is shorter in game time?.

Again I'm pretty much in agreement. Normally melee SR's were fixed unless you changed weapons mid combat, but spell strike ranks and movement fluctuated wildly. Though there was no actual rolling of initiative each round, which takes time.

That is equal to ‘six’ actions in the RQ3 during a round. Each one of those actions takes up time to resolve.

No its not. Its equal to three RQ3 rounds..

OK. Something is wrong, I'm now more in agreement with Kintire than not on combat mechanics. I hope things change soon... :wink:

MRQ dodging also does not seem designed with the player in mind. If you are successful at dodging in RQ3, you simply do not get hit. However, you may only dodge one chosen opponent per round. If you are successful at dodging and the attacker is successful as well in MRQ, you take damage. I understand the logic behind this, but the game should be fun. Opponents already have an advantage in that they start out fresh with full hit points where the player characters do not. RQ3 game designers seemed to recognize this and they favored the defender (which is often times what the player characters become…defenders). MRQ doesn’t seem to account for this in the rules, other than the fact that sometimes it is extremely difficult to kill things...but this seems to favor large monsters more than it does the player characters.

Now here I am right with you. Add parrying as well....

Well, in the original system in the core rules and that got printed in Hawkmoon as well there was the second roll used with the table, so a parry is just as likely to block 2xAP as 1xAP if the skills involved are the same, and a dodge is just as likely to avoid all damage as to take minimum damage. And if the defenders skill is higher than the attackers he is much more likely to get the more favorable result (2xAP or no damage). This is still my favorite 'official' way of running combat over either of the updates. In the first update weapon parries and dodges suck the big one.

When you parry and dodge in MRQ you must roll on a table. MRQ is designed to give players as many defense actions as attack actions, so rolling on the tables is going to take up some time even if you have the tables memorized. If you have the tables memorized you still have to take the time to make the rolls. In the end you cannot do much more with MRQ combat than with RQ3 combat, but RQ3 combat takes less time and runs more smoothly, and reflects the logic of realistic combat tactics better than MRQ, IMO.

MRQ combat feels much better to me than RQ3. When learning fencing, I learn't how to fence. It ALWAYS felt deeply strange to me that parry was a seperate skill. You just don't learn to fight that way. Also, parrying is part of attacking, not a replacement for it. Fencing actually forces you, through the rules, to make a more distinct parry than is efficient, and even then the parry/riposte motion is a fluid, single motion (or should be!). The whole concept of being unable to parry if you have attacked, or vice versa, just felt bizarre to me. On the other hand, I did prefer RQ3 dodges and parries. the latter did have the silly APs thing, but at least you got a reasonable number of them..

In fencing though you attack and parry with the same foil, in weapon and shield I can see having a high parry and low attack with the shield, and a higher attack and lower parry with your primary weapon (though in reality you would use your weapon to parry attacks coming at your weapon side - though RQ has never been detailed enough to model this aspect).

Spellcasting in MRQ seems to be much more like in D&D, which is okay…but it is not an improvement over RQ3, IMO.

RQ3 spellcasting... ahhh yes. I agree, I did like the spell times, but the rest of the magic system was a mess. Sorcery simply didn't function as written. You just couldn't have both enough spells to do anything useful, and enough Free Int to function.

Divine magic was useful if you were rune level, but for initiates it verged on madness. You spent points of POW... POW, the game's most useful and important stat, bar none, to gain slightly shiny spells that you could use once ever. I mean, did anyone actually do that? ever? Actually, there were just a few that were useful... Guided Teleport for example. Well worth it, for those moments where Still Being Here=Death. But 99% of the spells were just not worth it. Essentially, you ended up being a cut price spiritist with a reduced list. And if that list didn't include Protection and Heal... well you sucked.

And then there was spirit magic, which rocked. It had variety, flexibility save or die spells available to starting characters, and you got to become a shaman, which was just the best. Spirits at your disposal! Volleys of five or six Befuddles! the good old Spirit and physical attack at the same time tactic! you ruled the world.

Except you didn't. Your cultures were the primitive and weak ones. Odd, I always felt.

MRQ magic is much better. Sorcery works, Divine magic is worth taking, and spirit magic...

Okay, MRQ magic is MOSTLY much better!

MRQ Sorcery Rocks all over over RQ3.

Sacrificing POW in RQ2/3 is no big deal - you get it back so much easier than in MRQ. And to rise above initiate you need to have sacrificed a certain amount of POW to your god, and those one use spells counted towards that, so yes it did get used.

MRQ Divine has some problems. First off an Initiate is just as good at learning Divine Magic as a Priest or Runelord - they both are only limited by their POW. And dedicated POW sucks - at least for high magic like Glorantha, perhaps more workable in low magic settings.

I really think MRQ Spirit Magic has the potential to be better than RQ3 spirit magic in flavor and functionality, if it had functional, comprehensible rules.

 

[Arlaten]

Quote:
That is equal to ‘six’ actions in the RQ3 during a round. Each one of those actions takes up time to resolve.


No its not. Its equal to three RQ3 rounds.

This is an interesting concept. Now I am writing this as if an MRQ combat action is one round of RQ3. So, when I say the word ‘round,’ I mean one round in RQ3 and one CA in MRQ.

Let me see if I understand this right. One action/reaction in MRQ equals one round in RQ3. This means that in MRQ you can move, attack, range attack, delay, sprint, ready weapon, defend, charge, change stance, cast spell, aim. Note that you can attack or defend, as you do in RQ3. You must choose one or the other. However, you can still react to trigger actions during the round, as well.

I wasn’t looking at it this way before. I am surprised it did not occur to me while gaming. This seems to oversimplify the RQ3 combat round, but it does make much more sense to me. In RQ3 you can move and attack during a round, whereas in MRQ you would only be able to move or attack. It would mean that you could cast some spells in a ‘round’, like you could in RQ3 (the ones that take only one attack action to cast). However, combat moves faster, as you say, simply because you can only take one action during the round. You could make as many reactions as there were trigger events on you during the round.

Hmm, if you view it this way, some characters will a get free rounds of 'attacks', while the others are only able to react to trigger events. Unfortunately, some poor souls will have to wait out/react two extra rounds of combat.

This seems really harsh to me looking at the original definition of a round. Originally a round meant ‘once around the table.’ In other words each player got the same chance as any other character to do something during a round. In a sense, based on one roll during character creation, some characters will be forced to be ‘flat footed’ for two full rounds or more compared to characters with a higher DEX. It is not quite the same because not every character but your character will be acting during these extra rounds.

I have mixed feelings about this. I think that everyone should be able to have a fighting chance during a round. Everyone should be able to take an action during a round (not just react). But the way MRQ works some characters/opponents will be forced, because of how they assigned their characteristic scores, to stand there and be hacked on by an opponent for a round or two every cycle. This would not happen in RQ3 unless the character were seriously injured, or unless he were heavily encumbered in armor and using a heavy weapon. I have an idea of how to fix it, though. Allow players to assign their lowest score to DEX (if it is lower than 7) and then raise it to a 7. Either that or you could have players re-roll any ones when rolling for characteristics. This would mean that character scores would go from 6-18. If you did this, every player would be able to assign a score of 7 or higher to DEX and each character would have at least two combat actions during a cycle. Some would have three and even four (rarely), but for the most part things would be fairly balanced. Or you could just change the CA table to say that DEX of 1-12 gives 2 combat actions.

I still prefer the RQ3 system, although I can see now, that if you:

· Roll only once for initiative per encounter
· Use Total Hit Points in addition to location hit points
· Use one of the rules I suggested for character generation

That MRQ combat could mimic RQ3 combat more closely than I had thought.

 

[kintire]

See above. Also, potentially 5 attacks and 5 reactions in one 5 second round seems a bit the opposite extreme.

Well, yes... but you do have to be quite extreme to get that many! And Glorantha at least does have significant power differentials...

And if the defenders skill is higher than the attackers he is much more likely to get the more favorable result (2xAP or no damage)

That certainly helps with dodge, but even 2xAP is pretty low. But lets not get back into that!

In fencing though you attack and parry with the same foil, in weapon and shield I can see having a high parry and low attack with the shield, and a higher attack and lower parry with your primary weapon (though in reality you would use your weapon to parry attacks coming at your weapon side - though RQ has never been detailed enough to model this aspect).

Styles will differ, I suppose, although I remain to be convinced. I haven't done much fighting with shields, but the presentations and demnstrations I've seen emphasised that the shield was very much an aggressive weapon too.

Sacrificing POW in RQ2/3 is no big deal - you get it back so much easier than in MRQ

If You Lived. POW was magic points, Magic resistance, Magic Attack, spirit combat and luck. In return, you would get, for example, 1d6 damage ignoring armour. But having to overcome MP. Which is less likely to happen now that your POW is lower.

No, there were a few "I want to LIVE!" spells that were worth it... Guided Teleport, Heal Body, Invisibility, that sort of thing. The escape cards. But most of the divine magic was a) grossly not worth it compared to what you were giving up and b) a less effective combat spell than befuddle anyway.
Although I have to agree that in MRQ initiates and Rune rank people are on a rather TOO level playing field. Although Priests can still get the things back more easily.

As for Spirit Magic: it is almost, ALMOST really good. But its just too incoherent and poorl;y explained. Still, it requires only a little tweaking.

 

[Rurik]

Styles will differ, I suppose, although I remain to be convinced. I haven't done much fighting with shields, but the presentations and demnstrations I've seen emphasised that the shield was very much an aggressive weapon too.

Didn't RQ3 have an optional rule for some kind of sheild press? I could be mistaken, or it could have been a house rule.

Either way, during one test combat I ran a while back for testing some houserule or update, a Human was facing a Dark Troll. The Human got his weapon arm pulverized (major wound). He managed to stay concious and defend himself long enough to get back up, and desperately attacked with his sheild - and criticaled to the trolls head, dropping him instantly.

One of those moments were RQ combat really shines.

 

[weasel_fierce]

the whole "one attack represents a series of attacks" stuff never sat well with me, for the simple reason that it doesnt work, no more than it did in D&D. The rules still make it possible for only one attack to actually inflict damage to one location (and for first aid purposes, we know it is indeed only a single wound)

Either make the rounds shorter or let people do more than one thing in a round.

 

[Balgin Stondraeg]

The melee round is divided into 12 seconds

12 strike ranks, not 12 seconds . And actualy it got reduced to 10SR in 3rd Ed. 1st & 2nd had 12. The bad thing is that in 3rd the strike ranks were all still based on there being 12 in a round so everyone still got a little short changed.

 

[Rurik]

the whole "one attack represents a series of attacks" stuff never sat well with me, for the simple reason that it doesnt work, no more than it did in D&D. The rules still make it possible for only one attack to actually inflict damage to one location (and for first aid purposes, we know it is indeed only a single wound)

Either make the rounds shorter or let people do more than one thing in a round.

I never took it as the cumalitive result of many small attacks as such, and don't recall it being represented as such by Steve Perrin. You were rolling to see if one attack connected or not out of a series of moves (attacks, parries, etc). A hit represented one physical hit - but an attack roll did not represent only one swing.

 

[Rurik]

The melee round is divided into 12 seconds

12 strike ranks, not 12 seconds . And actualy it got reduced to 10SR in 3rd Ed. 1st & 2nd had 12. The bad thing is that in 3rd the strike ranks were all still based on there being 12 in a round so everyone still got a little short changed.

Both RQ 2 and 3 described a round as 12 seconds, even though there were only 10 strike ranks in RQ3.

 

[Rurik]

Wow, quite extensive analysis there, thanks for posting that. I'd have to see the RQ3 rules in full to fully appreciate it, I think. Anywhere to get them online (I believe they are out of print at this point)?

Actually, if you go to the Chaosium Website you can get them as Monograpghs titled Basic Roleplaying. They are the RQ3 rules verbatim with any references to RuneQuest and Glorantha removed (the default setting in the rules was actually fantasy earth so not much got removed in the Glorantha department.

Chargen, skills and combat are all in the Players Book ($12 I think).

I expect these to go away once the new Basic Roleplaying book is released by them - due out this fall sometimes.

 

[AKAramis]

Player's is $18
Gamemaster's is $12
Creatures is $12
Magic is $15

Of course, if you don't mind going the unlawful route, the old BRP is available from a site in Russia....

 

[RosenMcStern]

the whole "one attack represents a series of attacks" stuff never sat well with me, for the simple reason that it doesnt work, no more than it did in D&D. The rules still make it possible for only one attack to actually inflict damage to one location (and for first aid purposes, we know it is indeed only a single wound)

Either make the rounds shorter or let people do more than one thing in a round.

The rules state that it represents a series of attacks and feints, not a series of wounds.

As for making the round shorter and allowing more actions, MRQ does this.

 

[Arlaten]

I have been thinking about this and I think I have come up with a solution that makes MRQ fairly similar to RQ3. Tell me what you think about it.

DEX scores of 1-12 get two combat actions.
Use Total Hit points (to calculate these take the average of Siz plus Con).

Before an encounter begins all players roll for initiative (initiative has been pre-rolled for NPCs by the GM). This initiative order remains the same for the rest of the combat. The round is divided into three phases (four seconds each). During the first phase any characters that are non-engaged may make take a move action or make one ranged attack (if their weapon is readied). These actions are taken in order of initiative (highest goes first) as described in the MRQ core rules. Also characters that have 4 CAs may make a combat action during this phase. Also magic items, wands, etc. that require a short phrase to activate or no speech to activate can be fired, and the attack resolved. Spell casting characters may begin chanting during this phase. Spells that only take one CA to cast go off in this phase. Weapons can be readied during this phase.

During the second phase all characters may make a combat action (or move) in order of initiative. Spells initiated in the first phase that use 2 CAs to cast go off at the end of the round, if the spellcaster is not interrupted.

During the third phase any characters that have 3 CAs may make a combat action (or move). At the end of the phase any spells initiated in the first phase that require 3 or more CAs to cast go off, if the spellcaster is not interrupted.

Crossbows may only be fired once during a round. If a character begins readying a crossbow during the first phase, he can fire it in the third phase. (He can also use it to make a melee attack with...as a club, if he becomes engaged in melee combat). If he only made one such melee attack during the round, I would consider the crossbow armed and ready to fire during the first phase of the next round.

In addition, players who do not wish to use the Parry/Dodge tables can use these rules. You may make one free parry during the full round, if you have a weapon or a shield that has not already been used for an attack previously during the round. If the parry is successful, your character does not take any damage. If the attack was a special or a critical, the parry must match that success level, or it fails. The character can try to dodge all attacks made against him from one facing during a full round. If the character decides to change dodge facing, he must state it at the beginning of the round. He may make a dodge test against any attacks that come to him through that facing. If the dodge is successful, the attack fails to hit him. Dodge and Parry tests are made at the moment of attack. All other defenses must use the Defend combat action rule.

If a character has a percentage of 101% or more in a weapon, he may divide his score evenly between two parried attacks during the round.

If you use the rule above, you could also optionally use the rule that any damage greater than the AP of the weapon (RQ3 weapon charts) would go on to attack the limb holding the weapon, using RQ3 rules. You could also choose not to use the AP point rule.

This seems to me to solve most of the basic problems that I have with MRQ combat rounds and makes it closer, in feel , to the RQ3 combat rules.

 

[atgxtg]

the whole "one attack represents a series of attacks" stuff never sat well with me, for the simple reason that it doesnt work, no more than it did in D&D. The rules still make it possible for only one attack to actually inflict damage to one location (and for first aid purposes, we know it is indeed only a single wound)

Either make the rounds shorter or let people do more than one thing in a round.

I never took it as the cumalitive result of many small attacks as such, and don't recall it being represented as such by Steve Perrin. You were rolling to see if one attack connected or not out of a series of moves (attacks, parries, etc). A hit represented one physical hit - but an attack roll did not represent only one swing.

The Chasoium rulles used to state than an "attack roll" repsented a combination of attacks, so it could be considered the cumulative effect of several weak strikes.

That was the main reason why you couldn't split your attack against a single foe.

 

[atgxtg]

In fencing though you attack and parry with the same foil, in weapon and shield I can see having a high parry and low attack with the shield, and a higher attack and lower parry with your primary weapon (though in reality you would use your weapon to parry attacks coming at your weapon side - though RQ has never been detailed enough to model this aspect).

Not quite. With weapon & shield fighting a warrior usually stands reposed behid the shield rather than "front on". That way you present a smaller target, and can use the shield to protect front/left side (the partfacing the enemy). This helps to keep the warrior behind the cover of the shield and keeps his weapon arm protected most of the time by both his shield and his body.


We could always do up different hit location charts for fighting reposed behind a shield (lots more shield arm hits), or even presented (with weapon in front as in fencing).

 

[Arlaten]

further amendments to above rules:

I just finished talking to a friend who is currently running MRQ. He made a few suggestions:

Characters that have 4 attack actions get one free CA at any time during the round.

Characters that dodge a blow have to move one space in the direction of the dodge, since it is a full dodge and not just a Defense action.

Use RQ3 APs, AP rules for Parries, and weapon breakage rules because in the Second Age weapons should not be less prone to breakage and because a ram or a giant bashing your shield should be able to break your arm.

 

[Zipp Dementia]

Wow, this has been a really neat thread, and I may reference it if I find the MRQ rules to be lacking.

 

[atgxtg]

Wow, this has been a really neat thread, and I may reference it if I find the MRQ rules to be lacking.

You might want to check out some of the other RQ sites, especially if you are curious about previous editions of RQ or other RQ-based RPGs. There is definitely a split among RQ players about MRQ. Some like it, others hate it, and still others don't even consider it to be RQ. Personally I would consider MRQs relationship to RQ to be akin to the relationship between Traveler:New Era and MegaTraveler

When Chaosium finally releases the new BRP game, it will probably be useful to MRQ GMs (and MRQ source books could be useful for BRP GMs too).

 

[Zipp Dementia]

Wow, this has been a really neat thread, and I may reference it if I find the MRQ rules to be lacking.

You might want to check out some of the other RQ sites, especially if you are curious about previous editions of RQ or other RQ-based RPGs. There is definitely a split among RQ players about MRQ. Some like it, others hate it, and still others don't even consider it to be RQ. Personally I would consider MRQs relationship to RQ to be akin to the relationship between Traveler:New Era and MegaTraveler

When Chaosium finally releases the new BRP game, it will probably be useful to MRQ GMs (and MRQ source books could be useful for BRP GMs too).

What are the other RQ sites?

I'm half interested and half cautious... I've destroyed some RPGs before by trying to find the perfect combination of rules from all editions. Since my player seems to be enjoying the MRQ game, I might just keep myself in the dark to other possibilities until we find some specific problems that we want to fix.

So, for instance, if my player starts to complain about the dodge and parry tables, I can go back to RQ3 tables. And if she starts to find the battle system cumbersome, I could take a look at RQ3 alternatives.

We've already done this for total health, when my player exclaimed "you mean I could strike this Trollkin all day and end up, by bad luck, just striking his limbs until I hack em all off?" Now we use total health, albeit a modified version.

 

[Trifletraxor]

Other runequest-sites? You'll find a couple here: 8)

http://www.runequest.info/the-links/

SGL.

 

[atgxtg]

Oh, and every RPG produced by Chasoium EXCEPT Ghostbusters and Prince VAliant was derived from RQ. THat means you can use/adapt stuff from Call of Cthulu, Strombringer/Elric! and all the rest.

None of those games are 100% computable with MRQ. Most aren't 100% compatable with each other! But, most use the same seven attributes, and a skill set that if not identical, is close enough to figure out (FIND TRAPS to SEARCH, or SWIMMING TO SWIM).