New SRD-based rules system...GORE...by Goblinoid Games

[Arlaten]

The only material in GORE that is copied word for word is material from several OGC SRD documents. That material does still belong to the contributors, but is used under the terms of the OGL.

Well, what your saying is technically true. But someone could argue that your took someone else's idea and didn't change it enough for it to be considered fair use. For instance the idea of Resistance Rolls is exactly the same as RuneQuest 2 and RuneQuest 3 and all of the information in the table is copied item per item except that you call it an Opposition Table. All you did was switch the order of numbers in one column. I know that a lot of work went into designing that table and the weird thing is you didn't even give Steve Perrin credit for it. I think you're taking an awfully big chance on a lawsuit, but that's your business, I guess.

There are certain concepts about Chaosium's basic roleplaying system that make it unique from other roleplaying games. Things like Hit Points, the characteristics Strength, Dexterity, etc. are common among many games. True, many of these ideas seem to be included in the new game. But that particular resistance table, is unique to Chaosium's products...unless Mongoose gained the right to use it, and decided not to use it. If that's the case, then I would like to know. If you're not willing to discuss it, then there must be something fishy going on.

It wouldn't be so bad if you were in it just for yourself. But you are going to have a lot of people writing for your system and you put them in jeopardy if they use 'your' rules and they are not really your rules.

The whole issue makes me wonder, 'What is true creativity?' Can you just lift concepts from someone else's work and re-word them, and that's okay? When is it legal to do it and when is it plagarism?

On the other hand, if its all legit and square...hey, that's great. If Mongoose has the rights to all of the RuneQuest material let's make a Classic Runequest edition. I would like nothing more than to have it in print again. I'm all for that!

Anyway, like I said before, the issue is an interesting one to me, and I am not trying to knock your product. I think it is a good product. But I hope you can understand if I don't turn cartwheels about the amount of effort you put into it. It is good, basically, because it was taken from a good system...the Basic Roleplaying System.

 

[Goblinoid Games]

Hi Arlaten,

I don't see anything "fishy" about the Opposition Table. It simply reflects the mechanic (algorithm) for Opposition Tests. The Opposition Test works as follows:

When opponents face one another, they compare relevant abilities, or any number of other possibilities, including a poison's POT versus the victim's CON. When these abilities are matched (equal), there is a 50/50 chance that either side will be victorious. When they are not matched, there is a cumulative +5% bonus per 1 point above the opponent's ability in favor of the side with the higher ability. In pure math, that looks like this- ((Higher Ability - Lower ability) x5) +50) = Probability of success by opponent with higher ability).

The Opposition Table reflects the results of this formula by comparing several possible compared abilities.

Since GORE is so highly derived from from OGC, I don't take too much offense when you say that you're not impressed with the effort I put into it. However, the purpose of GORE is not to be an innovative new system, but instead to provide a gateway for publishers to use a solid, familiar system for creating products. In this mission, I think it is a success.

 

[HyrumOWC]

IANAL but...

You can't copywrite rules, only how you express those rules. What the OGL allows is for you to use previously opened content using the same language. It saves time and money by not making you rewrite things.

Since the Resistence Table is a mathematical concept, Chaosium doesn't own it. They just own their presentation of it.

Hyrum.

 

[weasel_fierce]

Well, its how Mongoose got their naval rules, in the RQ companion, after all

 

[soltakss]

Well, what your saying is technically true. But someone could argue that your took someone else's idea and didn't change it enough for it to be considered fair use. For instance the idea of Resistance Rolls is exactly the same as RuneQuest 2 and RuneQuest 3 and all of the information in the table is copied item per item except that you call it an Opposition Table. All you did was switch the order of numbers in one column. I know that a lot of work went into designing that table and the weird thing is you didn't even give Steve Perrin credit for it. I think you're taking an awfully big chance on a lawsuit, but that's your business, I guess.

The Opposition Table is actually quite different from the Resistance Table. For a start, it only works for chances of 50% and above, then the mechanism for using it is different, in that the highest stat is the active one and rolls on the table. It is functionally different from the one in RQ3 as it doesn't have a top-out of 100 rather than 95. So, it cannot be the same as the Chaosium one.

Maybe a lot of work went into deciding the mechanism of opposition, but you can replicate the Resistance Table in Excel in about 1 minute, so not a lot of work is needed these days.

I don't know how protective companies are about cherry picking parts of their rules and including it in other products, but given that GORE is based on RQM and is Open in itself, I can't see anyone bothering to complain or sue, no matter how many people suggest or encourage it.

To my mind, I would like to see more RQ/BRP-compatible games/systems around so that we, as GMs or players, can cherry-pick ther best ideas for ourselves.

 

[Arlaten]

IANAL but...

You can't copywrite rules, only how you express those rules. What the OGL allows is for you to use previously opened content using the same language. It saves time and money by not making you rewrite things.

Since the Resistence Table is a mathematical concept, Chaosium doesn't own it. They just own their presentation of it.

Hyrum.

I did some checking into this and it seems you are right.

In the case Ibcos Computers Ltd v Barclays Mercantile Highland Finance Ltd (1994) which is one of the most important software copyright cases in the UK it was decided that “copyright cannot prevent the copying of a mere general idea but can protect the copying of a detailed idea” and this is a decision which has been referred to and affirmed in a number of court cases since that time.
http://tickletux.wordpress.com/2006/12/04/are-algorithms-copyrightable/

Since most RPG games present simple algorithms to resolve simple, everyday problems, the rules for solving those problems are not copyrightable. Therefore, it seems that the only ideas that could successfully be defended in court are ones that specifically pertain to an original game setting. Settings based on historical concepts, such as Arthurian myth might even be considered general ideas.

I imagine original text and names might also be considered original in some cases. So it might be a good idea not to 'pull' text. Names such as Resistance Table, I am thinking, would not be copyrightable. This may have been the original reason for providing an Open Gaming License. Perhaps lawyers representing Wizards of the Coast saw this and exectutives wanted to turn it into a marketing gimmick. In other words, offer nothing in return for a big chunk of the market... Pretty good strategy.

 

[Arlaten]

What I mean by original text and names would be first instances of usage, such as Resistance Table, Ability Score, Strike Rank, d20 system, Hit Points, Hit Point Location, etc.

 

[HyrumOWC]

In other words, offer nothing in return for a big chunk of the market... Prety good strategy.

What they offer is the text they've written, presenting those rules. It saves a ton of time if all I have to do is cut and paste the d20 rules concerning combat. If I had to take those concepts, and then rewrite them, I'm wasting a lot of time, and more importantly, money to pay someone to do it. Even doing it myself would cost my time, which is as they say, money.

Hyrum.

 

[Arlaten]

What they (WOC) offer is the text they've written, presenting those rules. It saves a ton of time if all I have to do is cut and paste the d20 rules concerning combat. If I had to take those concepts, and then rewrite them, I'm wasting a lot of time, and more importantly, money to pay someone to do it.

That's true. I hadn't thought of that. WOC is offering quite a bit in terms of text you can just 'pull' off the internet and put into your document.

 

[Rurik]

Overlooked here so far is the biggest advantage of open content - customer recognition.

You can spend all the time in the world making a system that copies the RQ rules in concept but not in actual expression, and publish it and adventures for it all you want. If you can't actually say "this is a RuneQuest clone" or "Designed for RuneQuest" or "A Supplement for d20" a potential customer is not going to realize by glancing at the cover that it is something they can use for RQ, or d20, or whatever they happen to be playing.

 

[Trifletraxor]

One of the most informative discussions in a long time! I think Goblinoid Games have done a great work with integrating MRQ with some of the old BRP rules. Looking forward to their fantasy supplements.

SGL.

 

[Arlaten]

One of the most informative discussions in a long time! I think Goblinoid Games have done a great work with integrating MRQ with some of the old BRP rules.

I have to agree. Regardless of what I posted earlier, after learning more about what can and can't be copyrighted, I think they did a great job, too.

 

[Goblinoid Games]

Looking forward to their fantasy supplements.

SGL.

Thanks for the comments everyone. We have a fantasy adventure that is nearly done being written. I've got a few other projects going, so it may be a while before anything new for GORE comes out after that (from us). I hope that soon other publishers will pick up the GORE torch also and create products. I think that as time goes on this will happen, but we'll have to wait and see.

Dan

 

[Goblinoid Games]

Hi all, Mongoose has been very generous to allow this thread to hang around here, and I don't want to clog the forum with press releases so I am announcing the release of our first fantasy module for GORE in this thread. Here is the press I have been posting elsewhere...

*********

Stuart Marshall, one of the creators of OSRIC, presents us with “The Secret of Whispering Wood,” the first fantasy-genre adventure for the GORE system. This adventure is available both in PDF and in print.

The Secret of Whispering Wood is the premiere fantasy adventure using Goblinoid Games' G.O.R.E.™ system. Naturally, it is also compatible with any other systems which are themselves completely compatible with G.O.R.E.™

The Secret of Whispering Wood is designed for a group of starting adventurers and is suitable for most fantasy campaign settings with a Western European style. Tantalizing dreams become a horrible reality as the characters pass through a mysterious, sylvan wood. What dark forces and degenerate races live deep in the woods?

Download this new product here:
http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=21455&

This product is available in print here:
http://www.lulu.com/content/753816

The GORE core rules are available for free here:
http://www.goblinoidgames.com/gore.htm

 

[Trifletraxor]

I can't access rpgnow's pages. Are they temporarily down?

SGL.

EDIT: Doesn't matter, ordered a printed copy from Lulu instead. I'll write a review after I receive it.

 

[Goblinoid Games]

Thanks for the purchase!

Yeah, sorry about that, I found out this morning that RPGnow is down...I'm not sure when it will be up. I would load it to Drivethru, but I'm afraid if I do there will be problems once RPGnow comes back (they share files).

Hopefully they get the site back up soon!

 

[Goblinoid Games]

UPDATE


RPGnow is back up, so the download for the new fantasy GORE adventure is accessible....

 

[Trifletraxor]

What is the difference btw the OSRIC and the GORE systems by the way?

SGL.

 

[Goblinoid Games]

OSRIC uses algorithms from a 1e level based system from the 80s.

GORE uses OGC from SRDs released by Mongoose, and algorithms from percentile-based systems from the 80s.

 

[ogrisgl]

Hi all,

sorry if I sound a little harsh.... May I say that this, at the end of your PDF :

DESIGNATION OF OPEN GAME CONTENT
All language and format taken directly from the Open Game Content in the System Reference Documents listed above is Open Game Content. No new material presented here is open.

DESIGNATION OF PRODUCT IDENTITY
All original language in this work is product identity and cannot be used without permission. GORETM, G.O.R.E.TM, Lite GORETM, Lite G.O.R.E.TM, and “Generic Old-school Role-playing Engine” are trademarks of Daniel Proctor and are product identity. The author’s
name , Goblinoid Games, all artwork and layout is product identity, except that artwork which does not belong to Goblinoid
Games and is used here under license.

plus the Gore license seem to me very restrictive, especially after using the BRPS' table. Your game takes but gives nothing to the OGC community. It is the first game I've seen under an OGL license which states No new material presented here is open. :shock:

Good luck anyway, without me.

OgrisGL