New beam house rule - sorry another...

[G Quan]

We doun´t like (and use) the new beam rules from P&P and still use the original beams from rule book, because we like to roll again and again and so on.
The only thing that troubled is, all ships battle or partrol will hit in the same way on 4+. Whatever the hull score is, you will hit with 4+ - thats not right I think and so I create this pattern last WE...

If you fires a beam weapon, the first roll of AD against any target scores a hit on a roll of 4+.
After this is made, you may continue to re-roll every AD that is equal to the targets hull score, until you run out of AD.

Test it! It works fine :wink:

By the way... I think, ships on SA "Full Power To Engine!" should lose the Dodge Tarit for this turn.
A good sportsman may run verry fast on a straight way, but if there are some obstructions on his way, he lose some of the max. speed.
No ship on full power may turn, but dodging fire from all sides? - No! Please think about this :wink:

 

[AdrianH]

Making beams dependent on hull value weakens them, especially since they're supposed to be the weapon of choice against larger ships. Fleets which depend on beams (Minbari, Vorlons and to some extent Shadows) will be at a disadvantage; fleets with few or no beams (e.g. Dilgar) will be at an advantage.

So the Minbari and Vorlons hate you already; and if you implement that ban on Dodge while doing All Power To Engines, the Drazi won't like you either.

 

[Taran]

I was about to say the ISA would hate you too, but they don't use APTE very often...

 

[G Quan]

^^Yes, bud...
...ISA is good enough and fast to.
Apart from my Narn I play Shadows to and they also be good enough to brake heavy armour. :wink:
The strongness of a beam is present in the DD;TD or QD.

If you be afraid not to make enough damage, let the first roll score on 3+ ( like all the optional rules) and than re-roll against the hull armour.
This way you will have ~ the same re-rolls against big ships as at option A+B and the hull make a sense.
The Burger system is limited and I think it is the worst for Minbari, Vorlons and the other beam user.

 

[Da Boss]

^^Yes, bud...

The Burger system is limited and I think it is the worst for Minbari, Vorlons and the other beam user.

Hmm - its an interesting debate - our primary Vorlon player says the same thing - but that seems to be because previously he often enjoyed extremely high (and IMO unbalanced) numbers of hits.

Now according to the playtesters the original intent was to have beams on average score a number of hits equal to their AD - which Burgers and Triggys system on the whole does. What it does reduce massively huge roll ups form low AD (whilst also reducing the chances of a total miss). Now I think that fair but I understand it can be annoying if you are used to large amounts of hits every so often(or even worse mutiple times in the same game) winning the game.............

Most people seem to prefer Triggy's (including Burger) as it still allows a bit of rolling up.

I personally prefer Burgers for speed - you roll the dice and count up the hits.............

If you want to model beams being more effective against hulls - you could go back to 1st ED version? This may require re-balancing ships - esp low hull ships

 

[Burger]

If you fires a beam weapon, the first roll of AD against any target scores a hit on a roll of 4+.
After this is made, you may continue to re-roll every AD that is equal to the targets hull score, until you run out of AD.

That is actually a MASSIVE nerf to beams. Take a 6AD beam.

Under the current rules it scores 6 hits against hull 4, and under your new proposal it also scores an average of 6 hits.

Against hull 6 it scores 6 hits under current rules. With your proposal it would score 3 hits on the first round, then 1/2 on the second, 1/12 on the 3rd, 1/72 on the 4th etc. So the average would be 3.6 hits.

That is a HUGE difference, almost a 50% loss of effectiveness against hull 6 ships! So ships with beam weapons would require major rebalancing.

 

[AdrianH]

The strongness of a beam is present in the DD;TD or QD.

DD, TD or QD is irrelevant; if the beam scores fewer hits because of the new system, it will do less damage.

If you be afraid not to make enough damage, let the first roll score on 3+ ( like all the optional rules) and than re-roll against the hull armour.
This way you will have ~ the same re-rolls against big ships as at option A+B and the hull make a sense.
The Burger system is limited and I think it is the worst for Minbari, Vorlons and the other beam user.

Assuming balanced dice, all the optional systems shown in P&P score the same number of hits on average as the original system, which is 1 hit per AD, regardless of target hull value. No fleet is at an advantage or disadvantage by using one of these optional systems in preference to another or instead of the original system.

Note that not all large ships have high hull, and not all ships with high hull are large. The Skirmish level Maximus and Shuuka have hull 6. (There are even fighters with hull 6, the Riva and Porfatis!) All Vorlon ships and almost all Minbari ships have hull 5, including their Armageddon ships. Making beams dependent on hull value will therefore put them at a disadvantage against almost everyone else's higher level ships, compared to any current beam system.

 

[Burger]

The ultimate big ship with low hull, Drakh Mothership! Armageddon, with hull 4...

The Burger system does do strange things when you have 1 or 2AD. It is impossible for a 1AD beam to get 2 hits, or a 2AD beam to get 5 hits, and with a 2AD beam you're more likely to get 4 hits than 3. This is why I prefer Triggy's

 

[G Quan]

Large ships with hull 5 will got more firepower than equal ships with hull 6 or may do some other things that will determine the PL they are belong to.
Same with smal ones with hull 6, this ones got weakness on other points against other ships at the same PL.

At option A+B the re-reolls are on 6 and 5+6. The first roll is easyer to hit some and the re-roll is retarded.

At this system it is not much more difficult to hit big one - it is easyer to get re-rolls on lower hulls, and wiping this ones out of space. :roll:

 

[Greg Smith]

At this system it is not much more difficult to hit big one - it is easyer to get re-rolls on lower hulls, and wiping this ones out of space. :roll:

Which was one very specific reason why things were changed in second edition to make beams not dependant on hull. No-one took hull 4 ships, precisely because SAP beams would simply go through them like a hot knife through butter.

 

[KennyBoy]

Christ! Can you imagine the havok that SAP beams would wreak on the Vree!!!

 

[Greg Smith]

Exactly. The Vree scout used to have hull 3. A SAP would hit on 1's, 2's, 3's, 4's..... (assumimg you got through its stealth).

 

[G Quan]

Ok - match point for you - may closed here :?

 

[Da Boss]

Exactly. The Vree scout used to have hull 3. A SAP would hit on 1's, 2's, 3's, 4's..... (assumimg you got through its stealth).

Don't you automatically miss on one's?

 

[Greg Smith]

Don't you automatically miss on one's?

Yep. So, 2's, 2's, 3's....