New 2d6 based Crit-table

[Silvereye]

Interesting idea at first glance it looks good 2d6 table means you can have bad effects at the low and high end of the scale. Then I thought hang on moment as I saw the target PL modifiers.

So a few negative arguments I'm afraid:

2d6 is a hassle. The old 1e damage chart used to be 2d6 and it slowed things down a lot. While the crits are far less frequent then damage rolls I guess this would not be too much of an issue as you tend to roll each crit effect individually.

The modifiers skew the average of the 2d6 curve, which means the targeted smaller ships wont get the lowest results, but the larger vessels will. However the smaller ships will usually get an above average critical. I can see what you were trying to do, but not sure if it quite worked properly.

You may be able to combine a set of modifiers with 1d6 and scale your charts from 0 to 8 or something. (-1 for being an Armageddon vessel)
0 perhaps being a no effect (just take the crew/damage) from the solid hit modified with DD/TD/QD/MoD as usual.
7 Being a localised disaster - roll another crit on this chart with no modifiers
8 Being a chain reaction through the ship - roll up another crit with no modifiers.

Nice to see the proportional speed crits in though.

 

[Scipio]

I am concerned with the 2d6/2d6 that too much damage will be scored with double and triple damage weapons. One of my concerns on the current chart is that too much damage is scored and that the effects are too harsh. Currently battles are won and lost on the critical chart. Any revised chart that doesn't address this isn't fixing the problem.

As I said. Even though that there is a 2d6 damage at the bottom of the vitals table actually Battle, War and Armagedon ships will take less damage than before because of the bell curve. There will be much lesser chance for them to suffer 11-12 results so the 2d6 actually is there to drive the average damage up for the to get close to where it were before.

So if we compare to the earlier damages on the vitals for example:

- A Patrol ship will take 10% more damage than before
- A Skirmish or Raid ship will take the same amount as before
- A Battle or War will take 10% less damage than before
- A Armagedon ship will take 20% less damage than before

Calculate the damages if you don't believe me or test it and you will see.

 

[Scipio]

2d6 is a hassle. The old 1e damage chart used to be 2d6 and it slowed things down a lot. While the crits are far less frequent then damage rolls I guess this would not be too much of an issue as you tend to roll each crit effect individually.

Yes that is correct. You will have to make each roll individually.
However when we play it's almost only happens 2-4 time per game that one shot will inflict more than one crit on the same system and it's only then that it would be any difference than before. A 30 second longer game or something like that?

The modifiers skew the average of the 2d6 curve, which means the targeted smaller ships wont get the lowest results, but the larger vessels will. However the smaller ships will usually get an above average critical. I can see what you were trying to do, but not sure if it quite worked properly.

The smaller ships can always get the lowest result it's just much less likely.
The damage avarages are about the same as before. However the difference with the new chart is that it is less likely for bigger ships to get the severe crit result _effects_ than for smaller ones while the average damage for all ships are about the same. This was the whole point of the new chart and is intentional as it fixes one of the problem we have today. At least in our group.

An example:
A War level and a Patrol level Vree ship gets the "Can only fire on 4+" crit.
The player with the Patrol level ship will only loose half a patrol point worth of firepower while the player with the War level ship will loose a Battle point worth of firepower.

Also I feel that it is strange that if a patrol level ship get shot down to half it's damage and the same for a war level ship it is very likely that tha patrol ship will have only suffered one crit probably with little effect or perhaps zero while the war level ship likely would have suffered 5-10 crits and probably will be in a very bad shape from the effects. Should not both ships be about equally in bad shape? Is it today?
I wanted to even this out a bit so that it would be more of an option for players to buy ships from all the levels and not just buy down all the time because it is always better as it is today.


Oh and did I say: Try it out and then you can see for yourself how it affects the game.
It have changed it for us in a good way.

 

[Scipio]

Ok one more example as there seems to be some that don't beleive me.

If you calcalate the the average damage sustained for a raid level ship on the 1d6 chart versus the 2d6 chart you will find that the avareage damage is:

1d6 Chart:
Damage: 1,67
Crew: 1,89

2d6 chart:
Damage: 1,72
Crew: 1,97

That is a 0.025 to 0.05 deviation. That is, the average damage is just about the same as before.

 

[Da Boss]

I quite like the look of it - will try if and when I get a chance..........

re the chart - would it be worth putting your other HR on the chart in space on RH side - the vitals repair on CQ check and can always perform ALL Hands to Deck!

 

[Ripple]

I like it mostly...

Some concern about the increase damage on the smaller hulls as at least the drazi ones already feel really really fragile, and loss of a few sinks early and you might as well pick up the game.

I really prefer a 2d6 system, as under a 1d6 system all crits are equally likely on most charts.

Ripple

 

[Burger]

Ok one more example as there seems to be some that don't beleive me.

If you calcalate the the average damage sustained for a raid level ship on the 1d6 chart versus the 2d6 chart you will find that the avareage damage is:

1d6 Chart:
Damage: 1,67
Crew: 1,89

2d6 chart:
Damage: 1,72
Crew: 1,97

That is a 0.025 to 0.05 deviation. That is, the average damage is just about the same as before.

Hmm, not sure how you got your figures... I make it:

        2e          P     S/R     B/W     A
Dmg    1.65       1.69   1.37    1.14   1.02
Crw    2.04       1.84   1.59    1.42   1.34

Basically your new damage is quite a lot lower against anything other than Patrol, and your crew scores are much lower.

 

[Da Boss]

Basically your new damage is quite a lot lower against anything other than Patrol, and your crew scores are much lower.

don't really understand the maths - but is that then a bad thing? Sounds ok if that is what it does?

 

[Burger]

Basically your new damage is quite a lot lower against anything other than Patrol, and your crew scores are much lower.

don't really understand the maths - but is that then a bad thing? Sounds ok if that is what it does?

If you're a Dilgar player then yes it is a very bad thing, it is a major nerf to your racial bonus.

 

[Da Boss]

hmm not sure but doesn't it effect everyone with a common damage multipilier to their weapons - Vorlons, Shadows, Minbari, Centauri, ISA, etc and helps reduce one of the common complaints that the crits cause too much damage due to that very multiplier? :?:

 

[Burger]

hmm not sure but doesn't it effect everyone with a common damage multipilier to their weapons - Vorlons, Shadows, Minbari, Centauri, ISA, etc and helps reduce one of the common complaints that the crits cause too much damage due to that very multiplier? :?:

Yes it does affect everyone. But it doesn't affect everyone equally.
- Dilgar's crits are more effective than their standard damage.
- Fleets with precise weapons get more crits, therefore a higher proportion of their damage output comes from crits.

Reducing the damage of crits would hurt these fleets more than other fleets. Working under the assumption that all fleets are currently balanced against each other (yes big assumption I know ), this change would unbalance them.

If the objective is to balance certain fleets by reducing the effectiveness of the crit table, then this has succeeded. If the objective is to balance small ships against big, then the damage averages should remain the same. Otherwise, you're tweaking too many variables all at once.

 

[Scipio]

Hmm, not sure how you got your figures... I make it:

        2e          P     S/R     B/W     A
Dmg    1.65       1.69   1.37    1.14   1.02
Crw    2.04       1.84   1.59    1.42   1.34

Basically your new damage is quite a lot lower against anything other than Patrol, and your crew scores are much lower.

You are right. Thanks for checking my figures.
There were some errors in the chart regarding damage.
I have corrected these now.

Basically what I have done is to create a number of spreadsheets where I have handled each modifier as if it were there own chart for the calculations.
Then I based the starting values on the current values and made as minor changes as possible to get as close to the averages that I wanted for each PL-modifier.

Can you check again to see if you get the same averages as I do?

The averages I get on Patrol for example are:

                Damage	        Crew
Engines      1,194444444	1,3055555
Reactor      0,888889	        1,833333
Weapons    1,1944444	        1,146667
Crew         1	                2,416667
Vital          6,722222	        5,638889
Average	2,032407381	2,2744445

The intent I have had for damages and crew are that Skirmish and Raid should suffer about the same amount of damage as on the 1d6 chart.
Battle and War shoud suffer about 90% of the 1d6 chart.
Armagedon should suffer about 80% of the 1d6 chart.
Patrol should suffer about 110% of the 1d6 chart.

What are your thoughts about that plan?
It will affect for example Dilgar as you said. However it will be the same or better when attacking raid and down and slightly worse when attacking battle and up.

The intent is not to change the damage average but to distribute the damages a bit differently between the PL-levels to compensate a bit for that the lower PL ships get more damage than bigger ones.

 

[Scipio]

I like it mostly...

Some concern about the increase damage on the smaller hulls as at least the drazi ones already feel really really fragile, and loss of a few sinks early and you might as well pick up the game.

I really prefer a 2d6 system, as under a 1d6 system all crits are equally likely on most charts.

Ripple

Yes you are right. It will be a bit harsher on the Patrol ships.
However today I at least don't want to take a swarm fleet even though it would be intresting if it worked because swarm fleets are very overpowered.
The intent is to make it a little harsher on Patrol ships so that it would not feel so cheesy to build a swarm fleet for the fun of it.
What do you think?

I can change the damages to match the 1d6 damages if that is what is wanted?

 

[Ripple]

The issue isn't swarm here, it's bore sighted races needing sinks to last a few turns. A fleet of larger ships can effectively be rendered impotent by the loss of their small ships too quickly. It's the issue of not being able to decouple sinks and main weapons on such ships.

Ripple

 

[Scipio]

The issue isn't swarm here, it's bore sighted races needing sinks to last a few turns. A fleet of larger ships can effectively be rendered impotent by the loss of their small ships too quickly. It's the issue of not being able to decouple sinks and main weapons on such ships.

Ok so you would prefer if it were redone with flat damage/crew to all PLs?

I think that the little difference is marginal between Raid/Skirmish and Patrol.
It have had a good feel when we have tried it. Also Patrol ships usually only suffers 0-2 crits before going down anyway so it doesn't affect much in the big picture if they suffer on average 0.2 damage points more before going down.

What do everyone else think? Flat damage on crits or rising for smaller ships?

 

[greenboy]

Have not done the maths but teh table looks just a little high on crew loss over damage

 

[Scipio]

Have not done the maths but teh table looks just a little high on crew loss over damage

I have calculated all the levels for effects, damage and crew.
On all the PLs damage and crew is in line with each other.

On Battle and up the losses on damage and crew is slightly less than today.
On Raid & Skirmish its about the same.
On Patrol its a slightly more than before.

 

[greenboy]

Have not done the maths but teh table looks just a little high on crew loss over damage

I have calculated all the levels for effects, damage and crew.
On all the PLs damage and crew is in line with each other.

On Battle and up the losses on damage and crew is slightly less than today.
On Raid & Skirmish its about the same.
On Patrol its a slightly more than before.

Just taking the vital systems hit the average damage is 3.86 and the crew 4.31 that over a 10 % difference

 

[Scipio]

Just taking the vital systems hit the average damage is 3.86 and the crew 4.31 that over a 10 % difference

Which level and how do you figure that?

At skirmish/raid on the vital I get Damage: 5,472222222.
The original table have it at damage 5,4166666667.


Anyway it is not perfect yet regarding the damages but I'm still tweaking minor numbers and at least for us a 5% deviation (which would change the average damage for about 0.08 damage points) is very much more agreable than yet again have a match broken turn 1 yet again because of a adrift no DC or no weapons fire in one arc on the war ship in a battle level game for example.

Please check the values and suggest changes. I'm more than happy to put in any good tweaks suggested to improve it further.

 

[Protoman-swe]

So far its better than the old crit table. You still get the crits but the crits but dont make the bigger ships be unusuable becaus of all the effects.