Narn vs ISA
- Thread starter Morgoth
- Start date
Burger said:
Well, the longest ranged gun on a Rongoth is Range 12 and that is only in it's front arc. Everywhere else it's range 8. The whitestars attack on an oblique angle and then hang out on the side of the rongoth at range 9 and kill it. Will take a while, but not that hard especially since the rongoth is speed 6 with 1/45
Dave
If any of you guys were local I'd challenge you to a fight, to prove how your theory doesn't work in practice.
Firstly, the WS do not have initiative sinks. Assuming Narn loses initiative, they move 1 Rongoth 3" forward. The WS approaches to the maximum of its range, 18". The 2nd and 3rd Rongoths APTE, and they are suddenly 9" from the WS and can unleash firey death onto it.
The WS then does APTE to get past. It was 18" from the first Rongoth, at maximum speed of 22.5" assuming it took no speed crits, it will be 4.5" behind the Rongoth, which does All Stop. More firey death ensues from the Rongoth's rear arc, and the WS can't shoot back since it is facing away.
How can a WS possibly "hang out on the side"? Which special action is that?
Remember we are talking about 3 vs 3 here, not 1 vs 1. If it were 1 vs 1 then the WS would probably win, yes. But 3 vs 3 would go the Narn's way in my opinion.
Firstly, the WS do not have initiative sinks. Assuming Narn loses initiative, they move 1 Rongoth 3" forward. The WS approaches to the maximum of its range, 18". The 2nd and 3rd Rongoths APTE, and they are suddenly 9" from the WS and can unleash firey death onto it.
The WS then does APTE to get past. It was 18" from the first Rongoth, at maximum speed of 22.5" assuming it took no speed crits, it will be 4.5" behind the Rongoth, which does All Stop. More firey death ensues from the Rongoth's rear arc, and the WS can't shoot back since it is facing away.
How can a WS possibly "hang out on the side"? Which special action is that?
Remember we are talking about 3 vs 3 here, not 1 vs 1. If it were 1 vs 1 then the WS would probably win, yes. But 3 vs 3 would go the Narn's way in my opinion.
Burger said:
It's called tactics. What I do is approach the rongoths from an oblique angle about 60 degrees off dead center of the rongoth on one side of the fleet. This allows me to work on one rongoth at a time. If the scenario is call to arms, since you are assuming a 24" apart, I wouldn't set up in the front part of my deployment zone. If I don't get a shot on the first turn, No Big deal, neither do you. Instead of flying to your rear arc, which to be honest isn't a place I want to be if I have to be within 8, I fly to the side of the rongoth using my superior maneuverability to limit the amount of fire you have on me. I then cut across your force keeping your weak side arcs on me and using my 2/90's to constantly bring guns to bear on you. Since my secondary gun is range 10 and yours is range 8, I have an advantage here as well.
This works well on a standard 4X6 foot table. If you are using a smaller table, not so good. If there is terrain on the table, the rongoths are even worse off.
Dave
Yes, I am assuming the Narn player uses some too, instead of sitting there letting you run ring around him! Narn might not be as fast or manouverable as White Stars, but their low speed means they have a tight turning circle, and even if you win initiative you have to move one of your WS before I move 2 of my Rongoths...Davesaint said:
Like I said if we were local we could settle it for real but for now we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Morgoth
Mongoose
Interesting idea about 3 rongoths - yes tough ships and I think they would take a long time to destroy however I just don't think they would land enough shots on the whitestars though. Interesting idea though. However I think I will stick with just the one - after all I rarely use them as I favour Rothan's in most scenarios but I do look forward to using a ship I rarely field. Just a shame I can't realistically field a Dag'kur either..if its hull was 5 then perhaps I would but its just toast against beam equipped ships currently!!
Im with Burger with this one.
Having to move 7.5" makes you to zoomy it's big problem with Vorchan.
How long will take a Whitestar to kill a Rongoth with a beam?
All stopping is limiting the Whitestar boresight is it not ?
The Whitestar needs to get within 10" to become effective otherwise 50% of the time it won't do anything.
Having to move 7.5" makes you to zoomy it's big problem with Vorchan.
How long will take a Whitestar to kill a Rongoth with a beam?
All stopping is limiting the Whitestar boresight is it not ?
The Whitestar needs to get within 10" to become effective otherwise 50% of the time it won't do anything.
CZuschlag
Mongoose
The INL is F arc, Target, so there is no serious boresight issue.
I agree with the Vorchan, but that's the difference between 2/45 and 2/90. That turning upgrade is just huge.
Abou the INL on its own not being effective --- well, it'll stack up.
0.5 hits (first die) + 0.166 hits (second die) + 0.027 (third die) = 0.693 hits / INL. With 3 Whitestars, this is about 2 hits/turn, for 6:6 before criticals (probably 8.2:8.8 with crit damage, on average). In 6 turns' fire, that's a Dead Rongoth.
This means, if the Whitestars play some flavor of keepaway while getting their range-18 shots, can the Rongoths maneuver to kill one Whitestar in 6 turns?
I'm skeptical ... but can't disprove it.
I agree with the Vorchan, but that's the difference between 2/45 and 2/90. That turning upgrade is just huge.
Abou the INL on its own not being effective --- well, it'll stack up.
0.5 hits (first die) + 0.166 hits (second die) + 0.027 (third die) = 0.693 hits / INL. With 3 Whitestars, this is about 2 hits/turn, for 6:6 before criticals (probably 8.2:8.8 with crit damage, on average). In 6 turns' fire, that's a Dead Rongoth.
This means, if the Whitestars play some flavor of keepaway while getting their range-18 shots, can the Rongoths maneuver to kill one Whitestar in 6 turns?
I'm skeptical ... but can't disprove it.
CZuschlag
Mongoose
My personal recommendation would be 6 G'Kariths, or suffice to say, as many G'Kariths as you can get. This is just about as bad a nightmare as the ISA can hope to handle with WhiteStars.
The Pulsar Mines do everything in the world you need. They minimize all his defensive systems for almost no cost --
1). Dodge: Can't Dodge E-mines
2). Adaptive: Adaptive Armor reduces 1 damage point to ... 1 point. And that's what you expect to get from 4 dice of Emine hitting on 5's.
3). Range: You even outrange him -- 23" (Emine radius) to 18!
This converts the Whitestar into a decently-armed and unprotected 5 Hull, 11 Damage, and 12 Crew raid ship. It's Killin' time!
Heaven help you get to fire on more than one at once with overlap. If the ISA player permits you this, they deserve to die.
In general, you can expect to do 6 damage and 6 crew per active set of Pulsar Mine systems. In three turns of fire (without any losses -- unlikely!), that's 2 Dead Whitestars, and no Nials ever doing anything constructive.
The ISA can't even overfly --- you'll use your rear pulsar mine then, instead! You may want to consider all power to engines yourself, however....
Now, the damage back can be bad. You're Hull 4, so that INL will REALLY hurt. You're probably looking at 1 dead G'Karith per turn from the ISA early on. It'll be very bloody, but I think this may be winnable.
A smattering of Ka'Toc/Ka'Tan might improve this fleet, but something tells me that the Thentus might be a better bet -- maneouver to Shield might keep the G'Karith alive a lot longer, especially if the ISA foolishly CAFs (likely -- exactly once!), and the 2/45's will likely prove a lot more useful than the 1 on the Ka'T**.
Just some early thoughts...
The Pulsar Mines do everything in the world you need. They minimize all his defensive systems for almost no cost --
1). Dodge: Can't Dodge E-mines
2). Adaptive: Adaptive Armor reduces 1 damage point to ... 1 point. And that's what you expect to get from 4 dice of Emine hitting on 5's.
3). Range: You even outrange him -- 23" (Emine radius) to 18!
This converts the Whitestar into a decently-armed and unprotected 5 Hull, 11 Damage, and 12 Crew raid ship. It's Killin' time!
Heaven help you get to fire on more than one at once with overlap. If the ISA player permits you this, they deserve to die.
In general, you can expect to do 6 damage and 6 crew per active set of Pulsar Mine systems. In three turns of fire (without any losses -- unlikely!), that's 2 Dead Whitestars, and no Nials ever doing anything constructive.
The ISA can't even overfly --- you'll use your rear pulsar mine then, instead! You may want to consider all power to engines yourself, however....
Now, the damage back can be bad. You're Hull 4, so that INL will REALLY hurt. You're probably looking at 1 dead G'Karith per turn from the ISA early on. It'll be very bloody, but I think this may be winnable.
A smattering of Ka'Toc/Ka'Tan might improve this fleet, but something tells me that the Thentus might be a better bet -- maneouver to Shield might keep the G'Karith alive a lot longer, especially if the ISA foolishly CAFs (likely -- exactly once!), and the 2/45's will likely prove a lot more useful than the 1 on the Ka'T**.
Just some early thoughts...
hull 4 is asking for a death sentence against whitestars. and the fighters will do the job if you targeting whitestars with your mines.
in a 6v3 as you say you will do probably 6 damage to one, whilst they kill one of your ships. then they self repair.
next turn you lose another ship for 1 WS down.
after that you can only do 4 damage in the following turn, again probably another ship lost. SR takes that down to 3. 3 damage to the WS fleet, another lost narn vessel with the WS on 5 damage after SR taht leaves a 2v2 situation and i know where that will go.
better to use 5 ka'tans an a ka'toc. the ka'toc moves 1st, then every ka'tan will get a boresight. with that many AD and all DD you will do far more damage, and you have hull 5 to back it up. even if they get around you you still have 8 AD per vessel shooting at the WSs.
in a 6v3 as you say you will do probably 6 damage to one, whilst they kill one of your ships. then they self repair.
next turn you lose another ship for 1 WS down.
after that you can only do 4 damage in the following turn, again probably another ship lost. SR takes that down to 3. 3 damage to the WS fleet, another lost narn vessel with the WS on 5 damage after SR taht leaves a 2v2 situation and i know where that will go.
better to use 5 ka'tans an a ka'toc. the ka'toc moves 1st, then every ka'tan will get a boresight. with that many AD and all DD you will do far more damage, and you have hull 5 to back it up. even if they get around you you still have 8 AD per vessel shooting at the WSs.
Lets do it the other way now.CZuschlag said:
Rongoth has 12 AD, no traits. Thats 4 hits on average, 2 of which will be dodged, for 1:1 damage plus crits after adaptive armour. 3x Rongoth, thats 3:3 plus crits per turn, probably about 3.5:3.5 after crits. Thats a dead White Star in 3 turns.
Of course the crit effects will hurt White Stars even more... speed 0, oh thats no dodging for you then... lose a weapon arc, oh no firing... lose 1AD, no main weapon.
I've already explained how it is impossible to keep in INL range but out of the Rongoth's range.
Sorry but I'm still on the Rongoth's side here
Locutus9956
Mongoose
Bear in mind though that the WS has the initiative advantage and is when alls said and done more maneuverable and will often be able to avoid the Rongoths firing arcs (certainly its front one)
