Narn, a major race?

[vitalis6969]

Ok, Ive been thinking a lot about my beloved Narn and the basic fleet load-out of their ships and something isn't sitting quite right with me. By canon, the Narns are one of the four major races, and then there is the League of Non-Aligned Worlds, each smaller, less powerful politically and supposedly in many cases technologically.

Yet if you flip through the ship lists the Narns are behind in every facet of weapons technology among the four major races, no problem here, someone has to be last, and yet they are also behind when compaired to the League ships as well. Sure, the Narns have Battle and War level vessels but when it comes to the weapons payload they are primitive at best.

They are out-ranged in secondary weapons, and many of the Narn secondary weapons are "weak" trait. League ships do not suffer this problem, the Abbai are far advanced over the Narn, as are the Brakkiri and the Vree. The only thing that the League ships seem to suffer from are complete ship lists, i.e. few choices for the commander to choose from.

As for main weapon loadout, the Narn rely on a reletively weak boresight system while the other races manage to have "F" arc weapons which in many cases are more powerful albiet with a shorter range.

Now, according to canon, the Narn supplied weapons technology to Earth during the Earth/Minbari war. This sets at least a minor commonality between the two races and thus a fair compairison could be made between the race's primary cruiser workhorse. The G'Quon and the Omega respectively.

As for primary weapons, the Omega, while still boresight, has double the damage dice of the Narn, which in this game means more crits, and crits are what decides every battle. In secondary weapons, the Omega has a fifty percent range bonus in its fire arcs when compaired to the G'Quon in addition to not having the "weak" trait applied to its systems. This is one heck of a leap in technology from ten years past when the EA was purchasing weapons from the Narn.

Canon also states that the Narn will sell weapons to anyone who has the money, yet their weapons are the most statistically weak of the game. The Narn should worry more about purchasing decent weapon technology rather than selling it. Their customers surely cant be any of the races listed in the book, maybe they are selling to the planets Ted or Joe who have space shuttles and pea shooters, but there are no League worlds in print who would lessen their firepower capability just to have Narn weapon systems. Sure, I can see the raiders buying their weapons, since of all the factions in the game, their systems are the only ones weaker than the Narn, and this is also supported by show canon.

So, the Narn as they are are fine, but being one of the four major races? I just don't see it based on their military. Their ships are strong in damage points, but their weapons load-out is primitive at best and still in my mind at least, no more than early era.

Except of course, the T'Rakk, where the Narn have suddenly developed a mini-shadow ship.

As a player I will be fielding as many of these as I can, they are simply the best ship in the Narn fleet, but as for continuity seem as out of place as a pure-bred stallion in a pigpen. No G'Quon or G'Quon varient should go into battle without at least four of these mini shadow-scouts along side.

And no, there is no need for a waaambulance, :wink: Im not complaining about the Narn, just seeing a discrepancy between their fleet and their position as a "Major" race in the B5 universe.

-Vitalis, aka, Admiral G'Ken

 

[H]

ok then, since when has the omega had a 6 dice boresight beam? i suppose it could have been upgraded in Arm, but i'm sure it's only 4, but that aside, the league are not primative, indeed, the Hyach are one of the oldest races in the galaxy, as are the Abbai, and much league technology has come from Hyach aid. I don't think at any point it was stated the league are technologically behind. Indeed, the Narn and |Earth should be the worst, the Narn have developed from a sunbjugated race, and the EA were just a bit slow. I play Narn, and whilst they do suffer from some things, don't discount those damage points, don't dicsount the best antifighter system in the game. They are not as popular as EA so they were always going to lag behind, but they were always shown as simple brutal race, they don't need tech the same way others do. Narn do have a couple of weak areas, but so do most races. Remember, the fact their weapons are weak could be down to weak power generators on their ships, not poor weapon design, stick it with an advanced abbai powerplant, and boom, more effective weapons.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

I think the weak twin arrays are an attempt to represent porrly-replicated Centauri technology. Narn pulse cannons don't have the weak trait and their lasers and torpedoes are every bit as effective as Earth's. Being limited to a boresight is the only thing that shows them as inferior to the Centauri lasers we hear so much about around here...

 

[vitalis6969]

Ok, I may have been mistaken on the damage of the Omega beam, I didn't look at the book when I was posting, but as for technology, much of this comes from the shows.

Like I said, my observations were not from the point of view that the Narn are broken, not at all.

It comes from the point of view that they are one of the four major races. Keep this in mind when reading my post.

They do not fit what a major race would be, both the Abbai and the Brakkiri have been around as space farers longer than the Narn, and are definately more advanced.

What it boils down to is the Narns seem to have nearly unlimited production capabilities, albiet they are producing primitive equipment compaired to League worlds. And therefore are behind everyone except the raiders when it comes to tech.

Statistically they remind me of WWII Russians mass producing the t-34/76 and the t-34/85. Technologically they were inferior in every way to anything the Germans were producing, but they were simple and they were effective. It was not uncommon to require a hammer just to shift gears in the t-34 series, and they were definately no frills armored vehicles lacking radios and any creature comforts what-so-ever.

Their sights were primitive as were everything else on the vehicle, except the suspension, which was based off of the american Christie suspension that the Americans chose not to use.

The Narns as a major race though, nah... Mass production second rate stuff, sure, but not anything that would make them "Major"

 

[Lord David the Denied]

They're a major power because of the number of systems they control and the size of their fleet, not their level of technology. Earth is a major power but lags behind everyone else's tech level.

 

[H]

It depends how you define "major".
the Narns have a large area of space, vast population of their own and enslaved worlds, and have a huge military. Major is clearly an indication of military and political might in this sense, and not one of technological achievement. Your example of Russia is quite apt, throughout the cold war, Russia was viewed as a major power, based upon its military might, not it's technology. and that is I guess how it works with the Narn.

(I do mean the USSR, but I say Russia, meh!)

 

[Reaverman]

Excuse me,

the Narn are race that are quite competant on the table.

With the right ships they can;

Have complete control of fighter superioty (E-Mines)!

Halt the enemy SA's (Ionic burst)!

Devastaiting assualts (Ka'Toc strike)!

Their ships are durable, and have high crew and damage levels!

Good Anti shipping fighters (Frazi)


In fact the Narn have solid Skirmish, and War level ships. My opponents truly groan in dispair against my Narn fleet. In fact a 5 point Narn Raid fleet, vs a 5 point ISA fleet, the Narn are going to win most of the time!

 

[Celisasu]

What makes the Narn a major power as others noted is not it's tech level(indeed the Narn are probably one of the least advanced races technologically, even compared to the minor powers). What makes them powerful is a massive fleet combined with almost ruthless practicality. The Narn throw a huge percentage of their resources into their military might and they hunt down anything that can give them an edge no matter how small. Your average Narn is quite poor compared to your average citizen of another race. Combine this with a far greater sense of racial unity than what is possessed by Earth, the Centauri, or even the Minbari for that matter(notice the Narn are the only major race which doesn't suffer from serious internal divisions?) and you see the source of the Narn's strength.

The Abbai are advanced but they're a race of pacifists. Even against weaker foes they'll often abandon the field of battle as they don't believe in inflicting harm.

The Drazi lack of unity which is why they're not considered a major power. If I recall their territory is almost as big as the Narn's pre-Centauri war territory and their tech like Narn tech isn't all that great. But they routinely fight among themselves which keeps them from being a major power.

The other League worlds have similar reasons for not being a major power.

 

[Nomad]

Vitalis does raise an interesting question - in a mega-campaign different races could be given differing numbers of FA points in their starting fleets to reflect their varying economic power. Something like (Battle PL) -

Minbari - 20
Centauri - 10, plus 10 in mothball reserve
Narns - 15
EA - 10

Vree, Brakiri, Abbai - 4 each
Drazi - 6, but split up one or two each between players who hate each other

 

[LordClinto]

Realise that while all other "major" races were busy developing new ranges of technology (other then the tech superior Minbari of course) the Narn were in two or three major wars. One of which destroyed how many scientists and laboratories when their homeworld was smashed by mass drivers?

 

[vitalis6969]

Excuse me,

the Narn are race that are quite competant on the table.

Never said they weren't, please reread the post.

I was just observing that as a major race, they are quite lacking. They are technologically inferior in every way to everyone except the Raiders.

Look at their capabilities in a ship by ship basis. Weapons are weaker, rely on boresite (which if you look at it mathmatically would require far GREATER technilogical advanements to align a massive mega-ton space craft to hit a target 20,000 kilometers away) rather than using a arc type weapon where you are aligning a weapon system rather than a ship.

They are the great large pigs of space, massive armor, crappy (compaired to other races) weapons, and slow speeds and maneuvre capabilities in their large craft.

My post is not disparaging the Narn in the game, it is just observing there place in the greater scheme of things.

 

[katadder]

actually slower speeds equals greater manouvreability as you can turn your ships far quicker than other races. speed kills as they say, and in this game it definately does.

 

[vitalis6969]

actually slower speeds equals greater manouvreability as you can turn your ships far quicker than other races. speed kills as they say, and in this game it definately does.

In this point I completely agree, less speed actaully does mean more maneuver, which IS good... sorry, my mistake..

 

[emperorpenguin]

What makes the Narn a major power as others noted is not it's tech level(indeed the Narn are probably one of the least advanced races technologically, even compared to the minor powers). What makes them powerful is a massive fleet combined with almost ruthless practicality. The Narn throw a huge percentage of their resources into their military might and they hunt down anything that can give them an edge no matter how small. Your average Narn is quite poor compared to your average citizen of another race. Combine this with a far greater sense of racial unity than what is possessed by Earth, the Centauri, or even the Minbari for that matter(notice the Narn are the only major race which doesn't suffer from serious internal divisions?) and you see the source of the Narn's strength.

The Abbai are advanced but they're a race of pacifists. Even against weaker foes they'll often abandon the field of battle as they don't believe in inflicting harm.

The Drazi lack of unity which is why they're not considered a major power. If I recall their territory is almost as big as the Narn's pre-Centauri war territory and their tech like Narn tech isn't all that great. But they routinely fight among themselves which keeps them from being a major power.

The other League worlds have similar reasons for not being a major power.

Excellent summary Celisasu. I completely agree

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Never said they weren't, please reread the post.

I was just observing that as a major race, they are quite lacking. They are technologically inferior in every way to everyone except the Raiders.

Look at their capabilities in a ship by ship basis. Weapons are weaker, rely on boresite (which if you look at it mathmatically would require far GREATER technilogical advanements to align a massive mega-ton space craft to hit a target 20,000 kilometers away) rather than using a arc type weapon where you are aligning a weapon system rather than a ship.

They are the great large pigs of space, massive armor, crappy (compaired to other races) weapons, and slow speeds and maneuvre capabilities in their large craft.

My post is not disparaging the Narn in the game, it is just observing there place in the greater scheme of things.

Where are these crappy weapons? Aside from twin arrays with the weak trait, which are generally carried in numbers, the Narn pack a pretty mean punch. Pulse cannons might not be spectacular weapons but they'll grind a target down in successive volleys and Narn ships tend to carry plenty. E-mine are bitches, versatile, never miss and do the job on fighters like no other weapon can. The G'Quan might lack an AD or two on its laser but the weapon itself is fine, no different to the EA version. Mag guns are a bit dodgy with only 1AD but if you get a jammy roll it makes a big mess.

In addition the Frazi fighter is one of the best for anti-ship use and it's available in reasonable numbers. Narn might not be able to match the numbers of fighters some races can get, but they don't need to fear anyone else's fighters at all.

I don't see any crappy weapons in the Narn arsenal.

 

[Tredrick]

The Narn below the EA in tech? Look more closely. how many full arc beam weapons does the EA have? The Narn have the shattering mag Gun and the Burst Beam.

My problem is that they are not exploiting these weapons. I was hoping that the Crusade era ships would see the Burst beam, or an upgraded version of it, used as a secondary weapon.

 

[Celisasu]

The Narn below the EA in tech? Look more closely. how many full arc beam weapons does the EA have? The Narn have the shattering mag Gun and the Burst Beam.

My problem is that they are not exploiting these weapons. I was hoping that the Crusade era ships would see the Burst beam, or an upgraded version of it, used as a secondary weapon.

Well based on the Mongoose fluff, the Narn don't understand a lot of their tech as opposed to the EA who do. They were a pre-spaceflight(heck, it's strongly implied they were still using swords and spears) civilization when the Centauri came. Sometime after G'Kar is born they throw the Centauri off of their homeworld(he remembers the death of his father under the previous Centauri occupation after all) and they're free for less than a century before being reconquered by the Centauri. Going by Mongoose fluff this sudden tech jump has made the Narn not fully comprehend the value of R&D that doesn't get immediate(in a year or two) results. If no concrete gains are being seen they scrap projects quickly.

Plus there are more practical reasons not to use your most powerful tech. The mag gun is apparently the most powerful weapon for the Narn right now(F Arc instead of the usual boresite, Triple Damage, Super AP, Beam in game stats). But perhaps the Narn haven't reached the point where they can easily mass produce these weapons or keep them maintained? If every ship had one perhaps they'd quickly find lots of ships sitting in docks being repaired instead of out on the front lines?

As for the F Arc vs. Boresite thing, really neither the G'Quan or Omega in the show have been shown to be that limited in their firing arc. It strikes me that this is used more to show that the EA and Narn have inferior targetting systems compared to some of the more advanced races. After all we definately see both Omegas and G'Quans firing in what technically should be a F Arc.

 

[vitalis6969]

I don't see any crappy weapons in the Narn arsenal.

Range 8 secondary weapons as apposed to 10 or 12 in many occasions.

Low Dice main beams with boresite as apposed to higher dice F arc

E-mines are ok, but not a end all be all because of the slow firing trait.

Narn Weps that ARE good, pulsar mines, Torpedos, burst beams, and of course the awesome Mag Gun, which still suffers from low AD...

And I am not compairing against just EA, though, going back to my Omega / G'Quan compairison, since their primary beam armament is very close take a look at the secondaries.

I would say that the Omega wins hands down. The E-mine isn't that much of a difference unless it has special load-outs.

So, Narns, spacefaring for around a hundred years is doing well for their time in space, but I still belive that their equipment is not up to par.

The analogy of them being like post WWII soviet union is best. Not the greatest equipment, but tons of it.

 

[Hans Olo]

Well I'm all right with the Narn Weapons. To have Weak on one of your most common Weapon System is ugly though.
For version 2 I would suggest keep the Narn Weapons as they are but add some dice, I think a boreside weapon can definitely use more AD than a Front arc weapon.
The same with the Twin Particle Arrays just give then some more dice for when they get the opportunity to shoot let them really hurt.

 

[Alexb83]

Those twin arrays may be weak, but the sheer volume of AD they put it out (which is often twin-linked!) more than compensates.

The firepower which some Narn ships can output is obscene, especially in terms of E-mines. Play any tournament with a Dag'kar somewhere in your fleet, and I think you can guarantee to win any game where your opponent has taken a carrier, or relies stealth (you outrange Minbari and everyone else besides Brakiri up to war level, and can fire off 8AD a turn that are guaranteed to ignore stealth).
The ability to move so slowly, and fire out to such long ranges begs the use of CAF. The hulls are so tough, the damage tracks so long...

As discussed elsewhere, the Narn aren't a major power because of technological advancement. They're a major power because all of their resources are dedicated to their military.

Besides, what do you expect in terms of advanced tech? Vorlon beam stats? Even the Minbari barely scrape a few TD beams at high PLs, and by the Crusade era the EA has met or exceeded their technological achievements (TD precise beams, stealth 5+, scouts with no range limit).