Narn, a major race?

[tneva82]

Look at their capabilities in a ship by ship basis. Weapons are weaker, rely on boresite (which if you look at it mathmatically would require far GREATER technilogical advanements to align a massive mega-ton space craft to hit a target 20,000 kilometers away) rather than using a arc type weapon where you are aligning a weapon system rather than a ship.

However I have feeling ACTA boresight is more limiting than the weapons were in the show(and as such in canon...). Weapon arcs in B5 wars were probably more correct and there enemy didn't have to be straight ahead for omega to shoot for example...

 

[H]

as a rule, the weak weapons aren't a huge problem, thay are twin linked anyway, and against a hull 6 ship, 6 6 remains a 6. They have a reasonable number of dice. and Quite a few people have mentioned the omega, but the G'Quan has 2 sets of secondary weapons, the Omega does not (unless you count it's anti fighter guns). Close in, few ships can match the sheer volume of Dice that can be thrown by a G'Quan, even most war level ships don't have that many dice, and at the end of the day, this is adice game, where rolling often means more than AP, or double damage. More dice should promote more crit potential.
No matter what the damage tracks, the BinTak is one of the best warships out their, and who can deny that a pack of Ka'Tocs can punch above it's weight quite well. I have effectively beaten Vorlons and Centauri in a campaign (not so in the tourney, stupid fan heads), yet been less effective than another primative race, the Dilgar... I won but it hurt like crap.
Just because Narn guns don't have AP all round like the Brakiri, or the range of the Minbari, doesn't mean a thing, it's just numbers, the Ion torps, Mag gun, e-mines are all advanced weapon systems. You have to remember, the Narn developed from a farming slave race, to a major space power, cutting out all the bits inbetween. the later development of the KaBinTak and G'Vrahn shows what the narn are capeable of, when they begin to understand the technology rather than just retrofitting centauri equipment.

 

[Hans Olo]

Play any tournament with a Dag'kar somewhere in your fleet, and I think you can guarantee to win any game where your opponent has taken a carrier, or relies stealth

LoL that was a good one. :lol:

as a rule, the weak weapons aren't a huge problem, they are twin linked anyway, and against a hull 6 ship, 6 6 remains a 6.

but against a hull 5 ship it does matter a lot.
But as I said before I'm perfectly fine with that, maybe a few more dice ( arrays ans boreside) and I would be perfectly happy.

 

[Frohike]

remember that the Narn were involved in their war agains the Centauri in 2259, this devastated their homeworld and would have obviously had a massive effect on their ship production and R&D for many years.

All the while the shaddows were feeding the EA technology boosting what they could have achieved alone a long way.

 

[Alexb83]

It's a bit dubious in the series as to exactly what the EA got from Shadow tech - a boost to weapons and armour I would've said would be all they got in the Shadow Omega project (although obviously Mongoose are free to extend the fluff in line with the unaired Crusade episodes and beyond as they see fit).

What's really crazy is that the ISA partners, at least in game terms, seem to be getting very, very little Vorlon type technology, despite the fact that the Vorlons explicitly and directly gave their technology to the Minbari (and the Minbari to the ISA), whereas the EA shadowtech advancements seem to have been done as much behind the Shadows' backs as in cahoots with them.

 

[Locutus9956]

well it is hinted in crusade that the Shadow hunter is actually an EA shadow hybrid but never reallyt got into it much as the series was canned...

 

[Tredrick]

remember that the Narn were involved in their war agains the Centauri in 2259, this devastated their homeworld and would have obviously had a massive effect on their ship production and R&D for many years.

All the while the shaddows were feeding the EA technology boosting what they could have achieved alone a long way.

The Narn seemed to have their act together in time to join the Drazi in hitting Centauri Prime in 2262. Production does not seem to have been a problem. The development of advanced E-mines, advanced Mag guns, Interceptors and Advanced Jump Engines lays to rest the notion they had no R&D. Heck, the entire G'Vrahn project lays to rest the idea they are short sighted in R&D.

 

[Alexb83]

Sure, which is why AIUI, it's being moved to the Psi Corps fleet, and out of the Shadows'

I don't think in the series it's ever said that the Shadows are giving tech to the EA - on the contrary, the EA is stealing it from them or learning as much as they can before they give ships back (they try to steal a whole ship from Ganymede in Messages from Earth).

As for what they could plausibly reverse engineer? I guess the bio-armour and beam weapons (clearly indicated in the shadow omegas and the hunter).

The Narn, Minbari and League meanwhile, should be gaining similar technologies (most notably adaptive armour) from the Vorlons, through the Minbari.

 

[H]

remember that the Narn were involved in their war agains the Centauri in 2259, this devastated their homeworld and would have obviously had a massive effect on their ship production and R&D for many years.

All the while the shaddows were feeding the EA technology boosting what they could have achieved alone a long way.

The Narn seemed to have their act together in time to join the Drazi in hitting Centauri Prime in 2262. Production does not seem to have been a problem. The development of advanced E-mines, advanced Mag guns, Interceptors and Advanced Jump Engines lays to rest the notion they had no R&D. Heck, the entire G'Vrahn project lays to rest the idea they are short sighted in R&D.

Exactly, all of these could have been in pre design at the time of the Centauri invasion, it is likely that any number of scientists with this info went underground, or fled, we know that Narn ships survived and carried on fighting long after narn fell. The ISA tech was obviously the icing on the cake for the g'Vrahn. Just lend us some interceptors, and how can we boost power to this weapon etc, and voila, a G'Vrahn was born

 

[Epaminondas]

One problem is that while the G'Quan is probably the most iconic narn ship from the show; the real Narn ships used by most people are the Bin'tacs, Ka'Tocs, and G'Lans.

Rather then comparing and contrasting a gimp ship that no Narn player in his right mind would use (or one not being bribed by the Centari) with an EA ship; compare and contrast the Bin'Tac and G'lan. [Ka'toc could kick the butt of a hyperion, a priority level above. 4 beam dice as a skirmish? Yea Gods!]

Bin'Tac could kick the tail of the Old warlock, or the new one.

G'lan gets two more beam dice over battle level EA ships; and is equal in firepower to EA war and Armageddon ships.

===

Narn ships are appropriately more powerful then the EA ships.

sure, the Narn have some ships which are just ok, or not so good. But saying one of the worst narn ships is marginally worse then an ok EA ship isn't saying much.

Heck, the Hyperion has the same pratical firepower as an Omega... and the Ka'Tocs kick the pants off all EA ships.

Short of a massive fighter strike, and lack of energy mines on the narn side; EA is in trouble against a compentant narn player.

EA can win... but Narn aren't weak.

 

[Target]

The Narn seemed to have their act together in time to join the Drazi in hitting Centauri Prime in 2262. Production does not seem to have been a problem. The development of advanced E-mines, advanced Mag guns, Interceptors and Advanced Jump Engines lays to rest the notion they had no R&D. Heck, the entire G'Vrahn project lays to rest the idea they are short sighted in R&D.[/quote]

But did you see how many Demos the Centauri had coming, it was a lot more than the Drazi, Narn fleet combined and that was just the Homeworld defense fleet. That probably all the ships the narn had. They good like that putting everything in the attack which caused their downfall in the first place.

 

[CodeofArms]

I don't really find any problem with the Narn, maybe one or two AD here and there regarding beams but even Weak arrays are nothing to be scoffed at. They become an escort bashing secondary array; something that the EA and others (Minbari, Drazi etc) often lack (in the case of the EA. Ships are literally based around a single weapon system; Artemis, Nova, Saggi, Tethys etc etc).

As for an Omega vs G'Quon comparison its somewhat lost in translation if you go at it stat for stat; in actual game experience i've found that the Narn and EA always produce a good fight when faced against one another and even from the boxset onwards you can't really say one would hands down thrash the other (okay...the exception if the Un-twinked Saggitarius)

 

[Target]

The Sag is still just as deadly ,the amount of missles it throws out is the same, basically it's hull 4 instead of 5. You still need to survive the intial onslaught. Still outranges most weapons.

 

[Gray Dagon]

Statistically they remind me of WWII Russians mass producing the t-34/76 and the t-34/85. Technologically they were inferior in every way to anything the Germans were producing, but they were simple and they were effective.



sorry for time delay( and being off topic) was just reading post for first time.

I just wanted to disagree with your statement about the T-34. Yes later in the war the germans had better tanks than the T-34 ie the panther and the tiger. But when they first encountered it it outgunned any tank it met had better protection-ie thickness and slope and mobility what it didn't have was a three man turret a radio or experienced crew

by wars end the russians produced over 50,000 T-34s all variants incl
thats more than the total shermans produced and more than all german tank production for the entire war. total panther production was about 5,500 tiger less than 1,500
1 panther will beat 1 T-34 1 panther wont beat 9 or 10 T-34s

so back to topic the narn are a major race not because of technolgy but because of production.

:x

 

[Triggy]

That and their industrial base!

Straight up games we play are "points match" games or variants thereof. "Historically" there are few equally matched battles (at least including the ones where one side flees early on or pre-battle) and this is where the Narn come off worse as their technology is inferior to the other major races. However, give them a chance to flex their industrial and economic muscle and they will beat someone like the Drazi most days of the week and (Shadows aside) will give even the Centauri a run for their money.

 

[Tredrick]

I need to again dispute the Narn are inferior. They are a mixed bag, better in some areas, not in others. Their beams are above Earth and most of the League. Any race would benefit from the addition of energy mines. Their C&C systems are only later equaled by Earth (Initiative bonus).

Overall, they are about equal to Earth in technological development. They have just focused more in some areas than others.

 

[Triggy]

I need to again dispute the Narn are inferior. They are a mixed bag, better in some areas, not in others. Their beams are above Earth and most of the League. Any race would benefit from the addition of energy mines. Their C&C systems are only later equaled by Earth (Initiative bonus).

Overall, they are about equal to Earth in technological development. They have just focused more in some areas than others.

True, although in later years, the EA have clearly superseded the Narn (and arguably in many areas the Centauri) technologically, particularly with their Shadow and ISA tech. Until the Shadow War, many Narn ships had better technologies in many areas but then again so did the Vree...

 

[Jhary]

Sorry but for me is the hole start of this tread an Munchkin Attemp to get more heavy ships with moore weapons.

If the Narn fleet woud really be so bad they woud lose every battle and the forum where full with treads about weak Narns.

 

[Tredrick]

I need to again dispute the Narn are inferior. They are a mixed bag, better in some areas, not in others. Their beams are above Earth and most of the League. Any race would benefit from the addition of energy mines. Their C&C systems are only later equaled by Earth (Initiative bonus).

Overall, they are about equal to Earth in technological development. They have just focused more in some areas than others.

True, although in later years, the EA have clearly superseded the Narn (and arguably in many areas the Centauri) technologically, particularly with their Shadow and ISA tech. Until the Shadow War, many Narn ships had better technologies in many areas but then again so did the Vree...

That is what makes the Ka'bin'tak and other ships so disappointing. The Narn are not even making full use of the technology they have. The Burst Beam would make a much better secondary weapon than their weak arrays and the like.

The Ka' not having AJP, interceptors and other new techs they gained from the ISA is positively criminal.

 

[Celisasu]

I need to again dispute the Narn are inferior. They are a mixed bag, better in some areas, not in others. Their beams are above Earth and most of the League. Any race would benefit from the addition of energy mines. Their C&C systems are only later equaled by Earth (Initiative bonus).

Overall, they are about equal to Earth in technological development. They have just focused more in some areas than others.

True, although in later years, the EA have clearly superseded the Narn (and arguably in many areas the Centauri) technologically, particularly with their Shadow and ISA tech. Until the Shadow War, many Narn ships had better technologies in many areas but then again so did the Vree...

That is what makes the Ka'bin'tak and other ships so disappointing. The Narn are not even making full use of the technology they have. The Burst Beam would make a much better secondary weapon than their weak arrays and the like.

The Ka' not having AJP, interceptors and other new techs they gained from the ISA is positively criminal.

Well the Ka'Bin'Tak sucks anyways.

On the other hand the G'Vrahn shows what happens when the Narn use their new technology right. It has both the main laser of the Bin'Tak and a Mag Gun. Advanced Jump Point. Interceptors. Lots of fighters and 2/45 turns on a War level hull. While the fluff says the Ka'Bin'Tak borrowed from the G'Vrahn project, I think it only borrowed a little bit and was rushed out the door so the Narn could say "Lookie at our new ship of DOOOM!" while the G'Vrahn was tested and retested until they had it right turning it into arguably one of the best ships out there of any race.

I think the G'Vrahn is one of the best War level ships of any race with the Sharlin and White Star Carrier being it's only real competition. Maybe the Vree Z'Takk(I haven't actually seen it played, but it looks like it'd be an excellent ship from the stats).