My first session -- A few quick thoughts (and questions)

Lawdog

Mongoose
So, I ran my first Conan game this past weekend. I'm a fairly experienced D&D 3.0 GM (never really got my hands around 3.5 -- our group had largely moved on to other games by the time it came around), and while I appreciated, in theory, the changes made by Conan, it wasn't until we played a session that they became truly vivid. A couple things I noticed:

1) I really like the way Conan handles defense and armor. It just makes combat feel so much more "alive" than D&D, and far more easier to picture (and describe, as a GM).

2) What troubles me is the combination of some of the feats with the high damage potentials of certain weapons and the 20 point insta-death check rule. In particular, the explosive power feat seems to be game-breaking, if used per the literal text. Does anyone use this thing without modification? I'm not much of a "house-rules" type. I figure this stuff has been play tested and balanced, and that any changes I make could well upset that balance. Also, I don't like "nerfing" a player after the fact. But I'm stumped here. I don't feel that the game will be much fun if I let this feat stand, and I'm curious as to the experiences of others.


If you're interested in how I reached this conclusion, read on. One of my players is a 5th level barbarian, with the explosive power feat. He attacks an apeman of 50 or so hitpoints who is grappling another one of the party members (and thus, is denied dodge/parry against non-grappling opponents). The barbarian is using a bardiche, which deals 2d10 damage. Thus, despite taking a minus 5 on his attack role, he is nearly guaranteed to hit (which he does). He rolls, and after factoring in the double STR bonus for two-handed weapons, the double power attack bonus for wielding a two-handed weapon (+10 to damage), and finally, the result of the 2d10 base weapon damage, a relatively mediocre roll results in him dealing some 90 points of damage (!!!!) to the mound of jell-o that was once an apeman.

What was really disturbing was that we calcualted that even had he rolled two ones on his damage dice, he would still have done over 50 points of damage, and given the 20-point insta-death rule, the apeman would have been faced with fortitude save in the 40s, which is obviously impossible.

Now, I was shocked at the time, as, I think, were my players (no less the barbarian's player, whose 12th level fighter in my old D&D campaign had never landed a single blow that came close to doing that much damage). I sort of played it off at the time as 'well, it's nice, but remember, it can be used on you too'. But thinking it over, it just seems game-breaking to have an ability such as explosive power that has relatively modest pre-reqs and no real downside, that can be used any number of times, and has such dire consequences. Yes, I appreciate that Conan is supposed to be a deadlier game, but doesn't this stretch that concept to the point of removing the challenge, resulting in no fun for anyone?

Sorry for the long winded post.
 
Explosive power? What is that, or where can I find it? That will be one thing I will need to know before I can comment more.

Power attack is limited by your base attack bonus. So the fact that he is a 5th level barbarian, that caps the extra damage at +5. So subtracting all 5 from his base attack bonus isn't efficient (he could subtract 3 and still get the +5 to damage due to using a weapon two handed) but he definitely shouldn't have gotten a +10.

I will need to see what explosive power is before I can comment further, but the math doesn't sound right.
 
I think the complication there was that the opponent was in a grapple, otherwise the requisite of having to take the max power attack (maximum penalty) usually makes the players pause about using that feat, it is very likely they will miss the blow and then they only have one attack on the round, so that means they would have lost the round,
If someone was grappling an opponent he’s in a tough spot, he’s denied his parry/dodge and he’s opened to anybody, just wait till the thief has a hack at him
 
Hyborian Apeman said:
Explosive power? What is that, or where can I find it? That will be one thing I will need to know before I can comment more.

Power attack is limited by your base attack bonus. So the fact that he is a 5th level barbarian, that caps the extra damage at +5. So subtracting all 5 from his base attack bonus isn't efficient (he could subtract 3 and still get the +5 to damage due to using a weapon two handed) but he definitely shouldn't have gotten a +10.

I will need to see what explosive power is before I can comment further, but the math doesn't sound right.

Explosive power: its a feat detailed on road of kings it guarantees a critical hit but you can only make one attack and must take the maximum power attack penalty

I think the +10 is correct, the limitation on the power attack feat is in regards to the max penalty you can take (a -5 in this case) not the damage dealt, believe this because of the special note for weapons wielded with two hands
 
Belkregos said:
Explosive power: its a feat detailed on road of kings it guarantees a critical hit but you can only make one attack and must take the maximum power attack penalty

Aw, thanks.

Belkregos said:
I think the +10 is correct, the limitation on the power attack feat is in regards to the max penalty you can take (a -5 in this case) not the damage dealt, believe this because of the special note for weapons wielded with two hands

I disagree, I am pretty sure the damage is also capped at the base attack bonus, even when fighting using a weapon with two hands. Likewise, I believe monster slayer has the same limitation. We should look that up though.
 
Lawdog said:
If you're interested in how I reached this conclusion, read on. One of my players is a 5th level barbarian, with the explosive power feat. He attacks an apeman of 50 or so hitpoints who is grappling another one of the party members (and thus, is denied dodge/parry against non-grappling opponents). The barbarian is using a bardiche, which deals 2d10 damage. Thus, despite taking a minus 5 on his attack role, he is nearly guaranteed to hit (which he does). He rolls, and after factoring in the double STR bonus for two-handed weapons, the double power attack bonus for wielding a two-handed weapon (+10 to damage), and finally, the result of the 2d10 base weapon damage, a relatively mediocre roll results in him dealing some 90 points of damage (!!!!) to the mound of jell-o that was once an apeman.

I have only one question: What were all the other Apemen doing?

See the nastiness of Conan is that one blow can drop any foe, but many foes get huge bonuses to retaliate. Plus, you did have a situation where the target of the attack was not defending himself. There's a lot of factors, but all you have to do is make sure there's something to take advantage of that character's Defense penalty in future. Remember that there's no silly Challenge Ratings in Conan (lol) so if you wan t you party of three 3rd level characters to face 20 Apemen, do it. Teach them who's boss.
 
I disagree, I am pretty sure the damage is also capped at the base attack bonus, even when fighting using a weapon with two hands. Likewise, I believe monster slayer has the same limitation. We should look that up though.

Page 116 of the Atlantean edition rulebook, under the description of Power attack: "If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, you instead add twice the number subracted from your attack rolls."

And I apologize for the confusion. As Belkregos notes, the explosive power feat is detailed in the Road of Kings supplement.
 
Lawdog said:
I disagree, I am pretty sure the damage is also capped at the base attack bonus, even when fighting using a weapon with two hands. Likewise, I believe monster slayer has the same limitation. We should look that up though.

Page 116 of the Atlantean edition rulebook, under the description of Power attack: "If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, you instead add twice the number subracted from your attack rolls."

If you look on page 114 under the Monster Slayer feat, it says, "As ever with Power Attack, the bonuses and penalties have to apply to all of your attacks this round. The total damage bonus gained may not exceed your base attack bonus.
Special: When using this feat with a two-handed weapon, or with a one handed weapon wielding in two hands, instead add three times the number subtracted from your attack rolls. The total damage bonus gained may not exceed your Base attack bonus.
 
I hadn’t read in detail monster slayer, you are right, thanks for the correction…. Gonna have to do some changes on our game, but it makes sense.

Still, how about the new feat from Hyboreas fiercest, - two weapon strike,
Could this kind of big damage attacks be done with it?
I don’t have the feat in front of me but it essentially adds the damage from 2 separate but simultaneous attacks in to one….
Hmmm… I think only if you take a -4 penalty by fighting with 2 medium size weapons then you could do this kind of damage, because power attack does not work with light weapons…
 
It strikes me that the limit imposed pertains only to the Monster Slayer Feat, not to Explosive Power. I will add that I've not looked it up myself, but I'd usually ahve to go with the notion that text entries under each feat are exclusive to that feat. Monster Slayeer may state a limit of BAB for damage bonuses accrued, but that doesn't mean that the same applies to a separate feat.

I think...and I'm fuzzy here...but I believe 2Wpn Strike is a Full Attack Action. Could be wrong. At any rate, so what if your Barbarian smacks someone for 78pts of damage? The 20+ massive Damage rule falls into place and that guy drops, but if there are 15 more behind him, that Barbarian is in a world of trouble.

There's other ways around one character seemingly dominating the game session with brutal blow after brutal blow. He can only take out a half dozen or so at a time like that (with the Cleave feats he can kill max of eight) but if there are four times the number he can kill like that in the whole encounter, eventually his initiative isn't going to pay off or he won't hit or something else will go awry and that initial cuisinart on round one gets swarmed and put out of action himself in round two.

There's also spell casters, armor DR (not much help against most weapon APs though) and even the optional weapon breakage rules that you can use apart from simply overwhelming the party with numbers. Number is easiest - lots of opponents is bad news.
 
Sutek said:
It strikes me that the limit imposed pertains only to the Monster Slayer Feat, not to Explosive Power. I will add that I've not looked it up myself, but I'd usually ahve to go with the notion that text entries under each feat are exclusive to that feat. Monster Slayeer may state a limit of BAB for damage bonuses accrued, but that doesn't mean that the same applies to a separate feat.

looks like this would have been a good question for the "rules master forum" if it still existed, or maybe it was aswered to somewhere else?
 
Sutek said:
It strikes me that the limit imposed pertains only to the Monster Slayer Feat, not to Explosive Power. I will add that I've not looked it up myself, but I'd usually ahve to go with the notion that text entries under each feat are exclusive to that feat. Monster Slayeer may state a limit of BAB for damage bonuses accrued, but that doesn't mean that the same applies to a separate feat.

Well, explosive power just makes the hit a critical. A critical hit just multiplies the damage that is delivered. The damage that is delivered is capped by the descriptions of the feat. I am not sure where you were going with your point.

Back to the original question. Assuming the 5th level barbarian had a Str of 18 (for a +4 modifier), he takes off the max of 5 from base attack (he still only gets a +5 to damage) for a total of +11 (+6 from strength, +5 from power attack). You only get 1.5 x your strength modifier for using a weapon two handed, not x2. So the bardiche with explosive power would deal, 39 - 93 damage, with an average roll of 66 damage.

Definitely a lot. Keep in mind that in a grapple, the barbarian has a 25% chance to hit a friend when attacking someone in a grapple. 39 - 93 damage on a fellow PC is not a risk many would like to take. When a bad guy is not grappled or denied their dodge or parry, the potential to miss could mitigate things somewhat.
 
Hyborian Apeman said:
Well, explosive power just makes the hit a critical. A critical hit just multiplies the damage that is delivered. The damage that is delivered is capped by the descriptions of the feat. I am not sure where you were going with your point.

Back to the original question. Assuming the 5th level barbarian had a Str of 18 (for a +4 modifier), he takes off the max of 5 from base attack (he still only gets a +5 to damage) for a total of +11 (+6 from strength, +5 from power attack). You only get 1.5 x your strength modifier for using a weapon two handed, not x2. So the bardiche with explosive power would deal, 39 - 93 damage, with an average roll of 66 damage.

Not if you crit.

STR 18(+4) would mean a crit damage of +8 (4x2), +12 (4x1.5=6x2=12) for a weapon used 2-handed. Add on the 2d10 rolled twice (4d10) and you get a range of 16 to 52 points of damage.

My point about the capping at BAB was in reference to the fact that it was mentioned as being part of the Monster Slayer feat. If it is not also listed as a limiting factor under the Explosive Power feat, then that is not a limiter there. See?
 
Sutek said:
Not if you crit.

STR 18(+4) would mean a crit damage of +8 (4x2), +12 (4x1.5=6x2=12) for a weapon used 2-handed. Add on the 2d10 rolled twice (4d10) and you get a range of 16 to 52 points of damage.

Look at my post again, I have the strength calculated right. In your calc, you are forgetting that power attack it a apart of the damage being calculated in the crit and that the bardiche has a x3 crit multiplier.

Sutek said:
My point about the capping at BAB was in reference to the fact that it was mentioned as being part of the Monster Slayer feat. If it is not also listed as a limiting factor under the Explosive Power feat, then that is not a limiter there. See?

Read the description of Monster Slayer (or my previous post) and you will see that Power Attack is limited by the BAB of the character. You have to use the max penalty from Power Attack to your attack in using Explosive Power, and thus get the max possible bonus to damage (capped by the power attack feat) from the power attack. This is also applied to the critical damage. Thus my above calcs are correct IMHO :D .
 
Regarding Power Attack and Monster Slayer...

They were discussed in this thread a while back:
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6915&highlight=power+attack+maximum
It was there clarified by argo that it is the penalty, and not the damage bonus, that is limited by BAB. So someone with BAB +10 and a two-handed weapon could take a -10 penalty to get a +30 damage bonus (+20 from Power Attack, +10 from Monster Slayer). The text in the description of Monster Slayer is said to be just bad wording.

(Explosive Power is also mentioned in that thread as a potential game-breaker...)

Also, the FAQ (http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/pdf/conanfaq.pdf) has clarification on this (as mentioned in that old thread). Reading it again though, I notice that the "clarification" is a bit strange; the example seems spot on, but then they finish off with that enigmatic "however, your damage bonus cannot exceed your total BAB." Bad wording again? :?

Regarding Explosive Power; yeah I'm not to fond of it either. Actually, I'm not a big fan of "new feats" in various sourcebooks at all; it just seems that the more feats you get, the more balance-disrupting combos turn up (which is natural, as it off course becomes more and more difficult to take all possible combinations of feats into account as the number of feats increases).
In my upcoming game, I'll probably go with Corebook-only feats. Well, maybe throw in the ones from Scrolls of Skelos to spice up any Scholars. :twisted:
 
Gosh, I wish I had my book in front of me...

Is it something that could be "fixed" with a simple mechanic plug? You know: Add a feat pre-req, call for an ability minimum as a pre-req, count INIT as dropping to zero in addition to DV penalty...something like one of those?

:?
 
Belkregos said:
Hey Trodax, thanks for digging that thread up :D
Hey, no problem, this is something that has caused me quite a bit of confusion and despair (OK, I might be exaggerating a little bit here :wink: ).

Actually, after rereading that entry in the FAQ, I'm not totally convinced on what the canon ruling is. That "damage bonus cannot exeed your total BAB" just bugs me.
I think I'll just drop an email to the Rulesmasters and see what they have to say. I'll let you know if I get an answer.
 
Trodax said:
Hey, no problem, this is something that has caused me quite a bit of confusion and despair (OK, I might be exaggerating a little bit here :wink: ).

Actually, after rereading that entry in the FAQ, I'm not totally convinced on what the canon ruling is. That "damage bonus cannot exeed your total BAB" just bugs me.
I think I'll just drop an email to the Rulesmasters and see what they have to say. I'll let you know if I get an answer.

Yeah, thanks. The perceived limitation to power attack was definitely not consistent with 3.5 (as pointed out by argos in the thread you posted), but the wording in the FAQ has had me confused too. I am anxiously awaiting your post when the Rulesmaster responds.
 
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