My first session -- A few quick thoughts (and questions)

[Sutek]

In my campaign, critical hits only multiply the weapon's base damage dice. They don't multiply the bonus for strength, power attack, etc. Explosive power is still nice, but not game-breaking.

You may want to houserule that the PA bonus for Explosive Power doesn't get multiplied, or you don't get the 2-for-1 PA benefit from using a two-handed weapon when combined with Explosive Power.

After reading, getting confused, figuring it all out, getting confused again and ultimately hitting sbarie's post here in the thread Trodax linked to, this settled it for me. I think this is the most elegant solution, really. If you crit, just roll more dice. No doubling of anything but the dice.

 

[Lawdog]

Clearly, there isn't an easy answer to this, but thanks to everyone that weighed in. Overall, I think I like Sutek's proposed solution best -- just multiply the damage dice, with all other bonuses only counting once. Given the 20-point insta-death rule, I don't see that as really de-clawing the feat much at all.

Oh, and Apeman, you made me realize where I really goofed in this encounter. I completely forgot the 25% chance to hit the graplee rather than the grappler. Given the somewhat dire straights the players were in, I'm not sure the barbarian wouldn't still have elected to go with the explosive power attack, but it sure would have made his decision a lot more difficult.

 

[Trodax]

In my campaign, critical hits only multiply the weapon's base damage dice. They don't multiply the bonus for strength, power attack, etc. Explosive power is still nice, but not game-breaking.

You may want to houserule that the PA bonus for Explosive Power doesn't get multiplied, or you don't get the 2-for-1 PA benefit from using a two-handed weapon when combined with Explosive Power.

After reading, getting confused, figuring it all out, getting confused again and ultimately hitting sbarie's post here in the thread Trodax linked to, this settled it for me. I think this is the most elegant solution, really. If you crit, just roll more dice. No doubling of anything but the dice.

Yeah, that houserule sounds pretty good. Yay sbarrie! And yay Sutek!

I completely forgot the 25% chance to hit the graplee rather than the grappler.

Hey, I wasn't aware of such a rule. Do any of you guys have a page reference, I can't find it in my books?

 

[Sutek]

There's not one, technically, at least that I know of.

There's cover, which is usually relegated to walls or other terrain that's hard and rigid enough to hide behind and ig generally grants a +4 DV bonus.

Concealment affords a 20%-50% miss chance, but it has to do typically with impared vision (clouds or smoke, darkness, etc.).

Just for grins, I also took a hard look at the Man-ape entry and there's a lot of damage inflicted on a single hit. If one claw hits, which is at +6 to hit, it does its 7-14, but then the Man-ape gets to innact it's Improved Grab, automatically grappling chance at +16. This is pretty likely to succeed inflicting 12-33 more damage from the Crush exceptional ability. That's a total of potentially 19-47 in a single strike, averaging 33 points of damage. At that point, with Massive Damage, any opponent with less that DR13 should be down for the count, Left for Dead, and therefore no longer grappled.

:wink:

 

[Hyborian Apeman]

I completely forgot the 25% chance to hit the graplee rather than the grappler.

Hey, I wasn't aware of such a rule. Do any of you guys have a page reference, I can't find it in my books?

I will look it up tonight. I hope this isn't another case of a 3.0/3.5 rule that didn't completely come across the Conan OGL transition. I will let you know what I find.

 

[Hyborian Apeman]

Ok, my bad if you are firing into a grapple, you have a % chance to hit a friend as per page 156, but a melee attack does hit who you intend.

I was crossing the bull rush and firing into a grapple rules.

Man, I sure have to use that embarrassed icon a lot.

 

[Lawdog]

Hey, I wasn't aware of such a rule. Do any of you guys have a page reference, I can't find it in my books?

I don't have a page reference here at work, but I'm 99.9% sure that this is a Conan rule as well. Just last week I read the bulk of the 'combat' section in the main Conan rulebook to prepare for my session, and I remember coming across it. Go figure that I still completely overlooked it during the actual game. :roll:

 

[Trodax]

Just for grins, I also took a hard look at the Man-ape entry and there's a lot of damage inflicted on a single hit. If one claw hits, which is at +6 to hit, it does its 7-14, but then the Man-ape gets to innact it's Improved Grab, automatically grappling chance at +16. This is pretty likely to succeed inflicting 12-33 more damage from the Crush exceptional ability. That's a total of potentially 19-47 in a single strike, averaging 33 points of damage. At that point, with Massive Damage, any opponent with less that DR13 should be down for the count, Left for Dead, and therefore no longer grappled.

I am going be nitpicky at what you're saying here just to check if I'm playing things right...

For starters, I'm pretty sure that the Crush damage isn't inflicted in the same round as the hold is established. As I play it, if the Man-ape hits with one of his claws, Improved Grab kicks in and gives a free grapple attempt (without attack of opportunity). Succeeding on the grapple check only establishes the hold however, and no extra damage is dealt that turn. On the following turn, if the victim hasn't managed to escape the grapple, the Man-ape may now Crush (in place of his two claws), and may also throw in a bite attack just for kicks (with a +4 circumstance bonus). So yeah, there will be a huge amount of damage dished out, but it won't happen in the first round.
I think this is supported by what is said about Improved Grab on page 296 in the AE.

Also, even if the claw attack and the Crush damage happened in the same turn, I wouldn't count them as one hit for purposes of Massive Damage. Now, the Crush attack has a fair chance of inflicting Massive Damage on its own (3d8+9), but I would definitely not add the damage from a separate attack (the claw) to that chance.

Here is something I'm wondering by the way; does the Crush attack (and other similar grapple attacks) ignore armour?

 

[Sutek]

Actually, there's a couple of extra words in there (lol). It says it can make a single Crush in lieu of it's 2 claw attacks, so it would need a full combat action to do so. My bad.

 

[Trodax]

Ok, my bad if you are firing into a grapple, you have a % chance to hit a friend as per page 156, but a melee attack does hit who you intend.

Yeah, the rule for ranged attacks I knew of.

I don't have a page reference here at work, but I'm 99.9% sure that this is a Conan rule as well. Just last week I read the bulk of the 'combat' section in the main Conan rulebook to prepare for my session, and I remember coming across it. Go figure that I still completely overlooked it during the actual game. :roll:

Please do check when you get chance. There are a lot of rules in that chapter, and it may very well be in there somewhere, but I can't find it.

Man, I sure have to use that embarrassed icon a lot.

Hey man, don't sweat it. That's what these forums are for; discussing and discovering rules (well, among other things).

 

[Trodax]

He attacks an apeman of 50 or so hitpoints who is grappling another one of the party members (and thus, is denied dodge/parry against non-grappling opponents).

Lawdog, where you aware that the Ape-man does not count as grappled (and thus retains Dodge/Parry I would think) if it uses its Improved Grab ability to establish a hold on an opponent? I forgot about that rule myself, just saw it now when I was rereading the description of Improved Grab.

Maybe that wasn't relevant to what happened in your game, just thought I'd mention it.

 

[Sutek]

That Improved Grab thing seems to be the key to a lot of this (see the claws thread too), because I just saw it myself after my damage mistake Trodax pppointed out. Most animals have it and that makes fighting one that's got hold of you rough.

In a normal Grab you still retain you ability to Dodge, which is still a paltry 15, but there's always Human Shield. Still threatening squares invites AOOs and the beastie can carry the victim off before his friends can set up thier counter attack.

Still, surprise is the best bet, probably from somewhere hig up, for Man-ape attacks.

Trodax is seriously on top of things today... 8)

 

[Lawdog]

Lawdog, where you aware that the Ape-man does not count as grappled (and thus retains Dodge/Parry I would think) if it uses its Improved Grab ability to establish a hold on an opponent? I forgot about that rule myself, just saw it now when I was rereading the description of Improved Grab.

Maybe that wasn't relevant to what happened in your game, just thought I'd mention it.

I considered using it, but, if I recall correctly, there is a -20 (or some similarly large) penalty to grapple checks when using the improved grab ability. Even with the considerable advantage the ape-man had over his Zamorian thief victim, I figured there was a good chance he would fail his grapple check against the thief with the -20.

 

[thulsa]

I considered using it, but, if I recall correctly, there is a -20 (or some similarly large) penalty to grapple checks when using the improved grab ability.

Yes, there is a possible -20 penalty to improved grab in the d20 3.5 rules, but not in the Conan RPG. Check out the description of Improved Grab on page 296 (Atlantean Edition): "The creature is not considered grappled while it holds the opponent, so it still threatens adjacent squares and retains its Dexterity bonus." There is no mention of any -20 penalty.

Contrast this with the description from the 3.5 SRD: "The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a -20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents."

See also the last post of this thread: http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7552&highlight=improved+grab

- thulsa

 

[Trodax]

In other words, creatures with Improved Grab in the Conan RPG are somewhat nastier than their D&D counterparts.

Indeed they are. DV 15 instead of 10 (for the Man-ape) may not sound like a huge deal, but it does prevent attackers from simply maxing out on Power Attack (as happened in Lawdogs game). And, most important of all, retaining Dodge/Parry gives you immunity to those pesky Sneak attacks (unless you're flanked of course).

BTW, I'm reading the "retains its Dexterity bonus" in the Improved Grab description as a typo (holdover from D&D). It should really say "retains Dodge and Parry", right?

 

[Hyborian Apeman]

BTW, I'm reading the "retains its Dexterity bonus" in the Improved Grab description as a typo (holdover from D&D). It should really say "retains Dodge and Parry", right?

I have been wondering that myself. Usually the denied dex in D&D translates to denied dodge or parry in Conan. Ironically, denied dex in Conan is harsh, because it implies your dex is 0 and you have a -5 dex modifier to your DV.

In an AE example of how to handle encounters with heavily armed opponents, it suggests grappling them, then I believe pinning them so that they are helpless. In which case their dex is denied, they have a -5 modifier to DV and a further -4 for being prone, giving them a DV of 1 and requiring only a 11 hit finesse through the plate armor.

The key is if they need to be pinned to be denied dex. I believe so, but my memory recall of rules has been a little off lately.

 

[Sutek]

In the description it says "Dexterity bonus" but even Flat Footed doesn't say that in AE. I'm sure they meant that though - with improved grab you draw your opponent into your space, but aren't considered to have a flank because of that.

 

[Trodax]

I have been wondering that myself. Usually the denied dex in D&D translates to denied dodge or parry in Conan. Ironically, denied dex in Conan is harsh, because it implies your dex is 0 and you have a -5 dex modifier to your DV.

In the instances where your Dex is 0 its not called "denied Dex" though. Its called "your effective Dex is 0". So they are not really the same. My thinking is that the term "denied Dex" (which is what is used in D&D) in Conan should be substituted with the term "denied Dodge and Parry".

And yeah, it is only when you are pinned that your "effective Dex is 0" (and you are also denied Dodge and Parry). If you are grappled normally, you are only ( )denied Dodge and Parry.

Actually, I'm 99,9% sure that the statement that you "retain your Dex bonus" when grappling with Improved Grab, really implies that you "retain Dodge and Parry".
Otherwise the only interpretation would be that you are denied Dodge and Parry (as is normal when grappling), but that you retain your Dex bonus. So what would that be? DV=10+Dex? No, that can't be true, that would just be silly....

 

[Trodax]

I am anxiously awaiting your post when the Rulesmaster responds.

OK, so I just got an answer from the Rulesmasters on this issue with Power Attack and Monster Slayer. It seems you were both right and wrong on this one Apeman (right on Monster Slayer, wrong on Power Attack). This was the answer I got (with a part of my question posed as three different scenarios):

1) It is only the attack penalty that is restricted by BAB. Therefore, if I for example have BAB +6, I could take a -6 attack penalty to get a +18 damage bonus (+12 from PA, +6 from MS).

2) It is the damage bonus that is restricted by BAB. With BAB +6, I could at a maximum go for a -2 attack penalty, giving me a +6 damage bonus (+4 from PA, +2 from MS).

3) The two feats (PA and MS) are different in regards to this. For PA, number 1 above is true (attack penalty is restricted), while for MS it is number 2 (damage bonus is restricted). This is actually the conclusion I would come to from a strict reading of the feat descriptions, but it seems very strange to me...

Option 2 is the correct option. Monster Slayer is not supposed to allow PCs to strike for mind-blowing amounts of damage against Large creatures - it is just supposed to increase a PCs effectiveness when using PA against these creatures.

For instance: A 6th-level soldier wielding a two-handed sword with PA and MS faces off against a Large ape. If he just uses a full PA, he can get a +12 damage bonus at the price of a -6 penalty to attack. Or, he can employ his MS feat and get only a +6 damage bonus - but suffer only a -2 penalty to attack.

Cheers,

Ian Belcher
RPG Manager

So, when using Power Attack alone, the rules of D&D3.5 apply; the BAB restriction is on your attack penalty only.
With Monster Slayer, however, the scenario is a bit different; by choosing to use Monster Slayer you also impose the restriction that the damage bonus can't exceed BAB. The bonus that you do get though, you get at a very nice discount.

I think I like this limitation on Monster Slayer; it keeps those otherwise horrendous damage-bonuses down at least a little bit.

And just to note; this ruling is actually exactly what the description of the feats say. Its just that I (and others with me I think) just assumed that the rules for Power Attack and Monster Slayer should be the same; that both or none should have a restriction on the damage bonus.

And that example in the FAQ really should be changed; its damned confusing.

 

[Sutek]

Well, I think the intent is that you can be Grappled and not Pinned, but when you are Pinned (and denied DEX) you are still also being Grappled. The conditions described under "Grappling Consequences" don't necessarily apply to only the initiator of the Grapple - both initiator and target are Grappling, soall those consequences apply to both parties.

Perhaps it's just a question of the writers covering thier bases.