My answer to hyperspace Travel

[Abraxus]

I've been considering the whole hyperspace travel thing and I think i've come up with a passable solution....so here goes...

Firstly, my theory is based on the thought that a faster ship should be able to go through hyperspace faster then a slower ship. Now, here is my thought..

There are 3 key factors in determining a ships speed modifier...first, it's acceleration speed, its deceleration speed, and lastly its sensors. The first two allow it to manage to strong hyperspace currents while the sensors allow a ship to better detect hyperspace currents and allow it to navigate dangerous areas more safely.

So here is my calculation...add the acceleration, deceleration, and sensor ratings of a ship together, and multiply this number by 5.

So, for a hyperion you would have 4+2+3=9x5=45 This is the amount of hours reduced from your trip.

Now, take the time of your trip in days and convert it into hours. Lets say that it takes 9 days to go from B5 to earth. 9x24=216 hours. Subtract the 45 hours from the 216 hours and you get 171 hours or 7.1 days it would take the Hyperion to get from Earth to B5.

Now, lets' assume you have a White Star. Acc is 14, Dec is 14, and sensors is 5 (I guess 5 because i'm not certain) for a total of 14+14+5x5=165 hours taken off trip. This means that the White Star could make the trip to Earth from B5 in 216-165=51 hours or 2.125 days.

I was also thinking that perhaps it could be tackled a different way. Take your acc+dec+sensors=Y times 2.5. Y could be a percentage of the maximum time it would take to travel through jumpgates.

Let's take the trip to B5 from earth in a Hyperion. 9 days. The Hyperions hyperspace modifier is 4+2+3x2=27. This means the hyperion could make the trip in 27% less time. IF you took the white star, you could do the trip in 14+14+5*x2.5=82.5% less time. So the 9 day trip to earth now takes only 1.62 days.

Either of these systems would allow for faster ships to go places in hyperspace faster.

Thoughts? Opinions?

Abraxus

 

[Sundog]

Mkaes a certain amount of sense. However, what sensor rating are you using, and how do you determine it?

Also, consider this: Multiply by 10 rather than 5 for ships using the special quality: Elint, and any craft travelling with them. Makes scouts VERY useful for fleets.

 

[frobisher]

Thoughts? Opinions?

You shouldn't add the Acc and Dec ratings, they are the same thing really (remember these ships can pivot!), so merely take the larger of the two (which is, let's face it, Acc), double it and plug it in to the equation.

 

[Abraxus]

Hmm.. I like the idea about using the best of the two speeds... I was trying to figure out a good way of figuring out a ships speed and maneuverability maximum.

My thought was that every ship has a safe maximum speed it can go before it becomes too dangerous..ie: A Corporate Freighter (acc 1 and dec 1) is moving at speed 25. How long will it take to slow down? or turn? A ship with acc 4 and dec 2 must be able to "cruise" faster through hyperspace....

Okie...let's play with these numbers then...

As suggested, take acc and multiply it by 2 and add the ships sensor score for the total, and multiply by 5. So the Hyperion would have the following score of 4+4+3=11*2.5=33%. So it decreases its time by 33%.

But do you think that the ships handling score should be incorporated? It makes a certain amount of sense...a ships ability to move fast, added to its ability to navigate using its sensors, and its ability to maneuver in response to speed and sensor data.

So to go back to the Hyperion, what if we add the ships acc to its handling score and its sensor score... That would be 4(acc)+2(hand)+3(sens)=9*2.5=23%. So its travel times would be reduced by 23%.

Now, if it were a Starfury traveling through hyperspace the scores would be 10(acc) +6(han) +2(sens)=18*2.5=45%

Take the Minbari flyer as well... Acc 10 + han 6 + sensor 10=26*2.5= 65% reduction in travel time.

The base time is, of course, the MAXIMUM time it takes to travel. a random variable for hyperspace currents could be applied...

Elint could give a bonus to the sensor score to determine "Cruising Speed"

Abraxus

 

[Dag'Nabbit]

I don't agree that you should just be able to use the acceleration score in this formula. What happens if your sensors pick up a dangerous gravity wave and you're not able to slow down in time. Critical Damage, lost ship, who knows.

I would say that you either add the acceleration and deceleration or you take acceleration times 1.5, whichever is higher. This, in my mind, gives the pilots a little leeway in order to safely navigate the dangers of hyperspace.

Now, you would probably be able to risk just using your acceleration, but I would then make the pilots roll their navigation skill for every 24 hours in hyperspace. A failed roll could mean many things based on the margin of error.

MoE=1-5: caught in gravity flux, and you lose 2d12 hours of time negotiating your way free
MoE=6-10: caught in gravity flux, lose 3d12 hours, suffer one critical hit
MoE=11-15: caught in gravity flud, lose 4d12 hours, lose contact with jumpgate beacon, suffer 2 critical hits
MoE=>15: lost in the perils of hyperspace; GM gets to figure out all that goes wrong and what the crew might be able to try in order to survive

As with all things RPG, if you wanna use this feel free to change it up as you see fit.

Therego my two cents.

 

[frobisher]

I don't agree that you should just be able to use the acceleration score in this formula. What happens if your sensors pick up a dangerous gravity wave and you're not able to slow down in time. Critical Damage, lost ship, who knows.

If you've not got time to pivot the ship 180 degrees and apply full thrust to slow yourself down, your deceleration wouldn't help you either.

And you don't have to slow down to take avoiding action, you just need to be not heading towards the threat (turning works wonders...).

Given this is an abstract, and most travel is along beacon routes which are safe, I don't think there's a particular issue here. The Acceleration should be the predominant factor, with some influence from sensors for emergencies.

 

[Dag'Nabbit]

I think this is where are idea of hyperspace seperates. I operate under the understanding that even well travelled routes are still hazardous. Though the chances of something happing under normal conditions are very small.

Besides, I have heard mention of some sort of 'storms' that occur in hyperspace (though I can't remember where right now) and it may be possible that these, or other dangers, are simply to big to avoid at high rates of speed without the ability to slow yourself immensely and still maneuver. For ships like the White Star this is not a big issue as it has impressive sensors, as well as amazing acceleration/deceration ratings.

I am not saying it is impossible, just difficult, to go through hyperspace at excessive speeds. Thus, the margin of error in the navigation rolls.

 

[El Cid]

Are you thinking that only the points on the map are what we need to consider for any trip?

While your math will give a "rational" speed difference which makes sense, I keep wondering how raiders could possibly be a threat to shipping.

Sidney

 

[frobisher]

While your math will give a "rational" speed difference which makes sense, I keep wondering how raiders could possibly be a threat to shipping.

If all the jump gates and the space between the primary and secondary (and maybe even tertiary) gates in a system were well policed, they they wouldn't be a threat. As it is, there are plenty of systems which aren't well policed due to any manner of reasons (cost being the greatest of them). The very fact that B5 is providing security for probably quite a few of the surrounding jump gates is quite telling.

 

[Anonymous]

Are you thinking that only the points on the map are what we need to consider for any trip?

While your math will give a "rational" speed difference which makes sense, I keep wondering how raiders could possibly be a threat to shipping.

Sidney

A couple of thought here for you.

First, Jump gates are pre-positioned objects in space with well known locations. As such, it seems as if it would be easy to guard them. This it not true. As mentioned earlier, there are quite a few jump gates that do not fall under the direct control of any one government. This creates weak points in the chain of easily guarded points.

Second, space is BIG. The problem here lies in the fact that large vessels don't need a jump gate if they have their own jump drive. Thus the militaries of the galaxy are forced to place elements of their fleet directly on station at vital locations on their planets. If they just guarded the jump gate it would be child's play to jump in on top of your target and leave them behind you. Mind you this only works if you are going to be in system for a short time, otherwise you could still be fighting local defenses while the Jumpgate force hits you in the rear.

Basically, military forces are finite and space is infinite. If a raider knows where a merchant vessel is going to be he can choose when and where to attack it. Whereas the military is forced to provide escort the entire time in order to provide any sort of protection. This is not feasible because that requires a boatload of money to support. It's just not economical. That's one reason the Earth Alliance has the Belter's Alliance. Someone came up with a conglomerate of private concerns that could be hired to provide these types of escorts.

 

[Dag'Nabbit]

Logging in...who knew it was so difficult.

 

[El Cid]

Are you thinking that only the points on the map are what we need to consider for any trip?

While your math will give a "rational" speed difference which makes sense, I keep wondering how raiders could possibly be a threat to shipping.

Sidney

A couple of thought here for you.

<SNIP>

Basically, military forces are finite and space is infinite. If a raider knows where a merchant vessel is going to be he can choose when and where to attack it. Whereas the military is forced to provide escort the entire time in order to provide any sort of protection. This is not feasible because that requires a boatload of money to support. It's just not economical. That's one reason the Earth Alliance has the Belter's Alliance. Someone came up with a conglomerate of private concerns that could be hired to provide these types of escorts.

While space may be exceptionally large and military forces finite, I'd argue that the forces talked about (hundreds of Omegas, a thousand White Stars, etc) and the jump points shown on the map (less than 100 for all races?) would lead me to the conclusion that the shipping lanes could be very well covered.

The only conclusion I can draw from that is that the map we have does not cover all the jump gates that freighters travel.

Sidney

 

[hassanisabbah]

A ships vulnerability is probably not actually the jump gate area, but the journeys too and from such a location. Whilst its easy to provide protection at a jump gate near Pluto (say), its a much harder to protect the shipping that is on route to mars and Earth, simply because theres so much space for raiders to wait in.

The best option is not to have preset shipping routes, so the raiders would require inside information, or risk following from the jump gate (and being picked up by the Fuzz - or have another ship come to their aid).

Ideally the bandits would probably have an attack force, a reserve (to board and fly the ship), some roundevous points - and times, and possibly a base (not that everyone would know where this was). The loot is split at the roundervous point.

 

[frobisher]

While space may be exceptionally large and military forces finite, I'd argue that the forces talked about (hundreds of Omegas, a thousand White Stars, etc) and the jump points shown on the map (less than 100 for all races?) would lead me to the conclusion that the shipping lanes could be very well covered.

There's certainly not that many Whitestars - jms is quoted as saying that come season 5 there are only 90 or so left.

I'd also disagree on the number of Omegas - the often quoted casualty figures from "Crusade" about destroyer losses does not refer to Omegas, but to losses of the IA of "destroyer" class vessels.

The other thing to bear in mind, is that map is not the entirety of the galaxy - far from it. The jump routes extend well beyond that shown, in pretty much all directions.

The map is an adapatation of the AoG map which is a development of the Babylon Project RPG map. AoG had some historical variants of said map...

Try looking here...

http://marshallpower.co.uk/b5w/repository/

And particularly here...

http://marshallpower.co.uk/mikes_server.php?file=maps/wcrmaps.zip

Which isn't working at the moment (22/03/04) Poo...

I've dropped my copy (1.165Mb) of the zip file here, though this is the one map in question (not zipped).

Again, not the whole galaxy and there are still bits coming off of that...

 

[Graknor Stev]

Raiders are mostly found near the frontiers. Earth gov stil has problems patrolling the Jovian system (within a few AU's of it's homeworld) so there is plenty of room for raiders to attack.

There are a few ways to avoid raiders attacking you:

1 - Keep your course secret.

2 - Hire some muscle.

3 - Get a faster ship.

4 - Pay some tax to a local raider for safe passage.

5 - Go the Drazi way by punishing any one raider gang that attacks your convoys (ie droping a few nukes on their hideout usually does the trick as well as tossing them into vacuum or dropping their diabled ships into hyperspace) the more graphic and cruel the death the better.

 

[El Cid]

I'd think that speed in hyperspace would be dependant on the following:

Acceleration => directly proportional

Sensors => Once you have adequate sensors, better sensors wouldn't allow a greater speed. Think of it as a maximum speed allowed based on sensor rating. After all, a ship without thrusters ain't gonna go anywhere even if it's got the best available sensors.

Sidney

 

[frobisher]

I'd think that speed in hyperspace would be dependant on the following:

Acceleration => directly proportional

Sensors => Once you have adequate sensors, better sensors wouldn't allow a greater speed. Think of it as a maximum speed allowed based on sensor rating. After all, a ship without thrusters ain't gonna go anywhere even if it's got the best available sensors.

So basically, the acceleration should be multiplied by the sensors, no?

Obviously a suitable scaling is then needed

 

[Tegman]

This is an interresting discussion to follow, I have long wondered about the travelspeed in hyperspace. I think I'll use the ideas given here, with the acc/dec and sensor solution. Unless someone else has an even better idea?

Hyperspace isn't explained so good, I would like a lot of info about it since it's a big part in the game, especially if you're running a space exploration game (not that I do that now, but it would be fun to do). I would like to know what happens when you fail a hyperspace navigational roll, things that can happen while you're in hyperspace etc.

Keep the ideas coming

 

[El Cid]

I'd think that speed in hyperspace would be dependant on the following:

Acceleration => directly proportional

Sensors => Once you have adequate sensors, better sensors wouldn't allow a greater speed. Think of it as a maximum speed allowed based on sensor rating. After all, a ship without thrusters ain't gonna go anywhere even if it's got the best available sensors.

So basically, the acceleration should be multiplied by the sensors, no?

Obviously a suitable scaling is then needed

No. Speed would be X times Acceleration but that number would be limited by having adequate sensors.

For example

Sensor Max Speed
1 2
2 3
3 5
4 8
5+ 11

Think of driving on the highway (speed) and your visibility is limited (sensor). Just because you can "see" farther doesn't mean that you can control your car better on a winding road but you can anticipate obsticals ahead better.

Multiplying or adding sensors to acceleration doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Sidney

 

[Agamemnon_B5]

While we're on the topic of hyperspace, I was wondering about a few things.

Larger ships can create their own jumpoints in and out of hyperspace. It would be feasible that they travel along a beacon so they have a general idea of where they are going. But how do they know where to jump out of hyperspace using a self made jump point without running into anything? Also, if a ship with jump point capability gets lost, couldn't they just jump out of hyperspace, find the nearest jump gate and try again?