Muster out with Battle Dress?
- Thread starter Chuckhazard
- Start date
alex_greene
Guest
And there's also something else.
Say a character musters out of the Impie Marines. Semper Fidelis, all of that. He gets to keep his Battle Dress, the mobile armour that has served him and his service with distinction these past five terms.
And then he goes and robs a bank wearing that Battle Dress.
See, Battle Dress is as much a part of the uniform of the service that makes it as it is a kind of mobile wearable mini tank. To wear it is to wear an emblem of the service which uses it, and to commit a criminal act while wearing that uniform is something which usually carries severe penalties.
So if a character musters out with "Battle Dress," and goes adventuring in it, committing crimes, destroying property, you can pretty much imagine that he'll end up getting a bad name and MPs after his hide, intent on getting their property back - the health of the wearer being only of secondary importance at the time.
Say a character musters out of the Impie Marines. Semper Fidelis, all of that. He gets to keep his Battle Dress, the mobile armour that has served him and his service with distinction these past five terms.
And then he goes and robs a bank wearing that Battle Dress.
See, Battle Dress is as much a part of the uniform of the service that makes it as it is a kind of mobile wearable mini tank. To wear it is to wear an emblem of the service which uses it, and to commit a criminal act while wearing that uniform is something which usually carries severe penalties.
So if a character musters out with "Battle Dress," and goes adventuring in it, committing crimes, destroying property, you can pretty much imagine that he'll end up getting a bad name and MPs after his hide, intent on getting their property back - the health of the wearer being only of secondary importance at the time.
justacaveman
Mongoose
Battle Dress is not a Light Vehicle, it's personal armour.
The vehicle combat rules make it much harder to take out a light vehicle (Even the poorly armoured ones in MGT.) than Battle Dress.
My point is that some people give Battle Dress way too much credit. The Strength enhancements are usually irrelevant, the Dexterity enhancements provide a maximum bonus of +2, and the cost is way beyond the benefits received by wearing it. Combat Armour can have eveything else at a fraction of the cost of Battle Dress.
Battle Dress is highly overrated.
The vehicle combat rules make it much harder to take out a light vehicle (Even the poorly armoured ones in MGT.) than Battle Dress.
My point is that some people give Battle Dress way too much credit. The Strength enhancements are usually irrelevant, the Dexterity enhancements provide a maximum bonus of +2, and the cost is way beyond the benefits received by wearing it. Combat Armour can have eveything else at a fraction of the cost of Battle Dress.
Battle Dress is highly overrated.
alex_greene
Guest
Combat is overrated as a means of scenario resolution. Yet the core rulebook devotes pages upon pages to it, and grognards while away their hours throwing dice and fiddling with DMs through conducting it.
Despite that it's less cost effective to use the money to buy a tank division than to equip a battalion with Battle Dress, some SF settings just seem to want to demand it, and player characters can't seem to live without it.
Even if when the characters are wearing it to go down the street, people stop and stare and kids ask where the Bubblegum Crisis cosplay event is.
Despite that it's less cost effective to use the money to buy a tank division than to equip a battalion with Battle Dress, some SF settings just seem to want to demand it, and player characters can't seem to live without it.
Even if when the characters are wearing it to go down the street, people stop and stare and kids ask where the Bubblegum Crisis cosplay event is.
Of course it is. One can get an Advanced Boarding Vacc Suit with almostjustacaveman said:
the same degree of protection for 40,000 Credits, which saves almost 2
million Credits compared to a Basic Battle Dress. Now think of the kind
and amount of support one could buy with those 1,960,000 Credits - for
example an Autodoc (always nice to have) and more than a dozen of well
armed Combat Drones ... 8)
justacaveman
Mongoose
The desire to restrict Battle Dress seems to be based on the belief that Battle Dress is so awesome. This is irrational and contrary to the facts as presented. The stuff is not much better than Combat Armour, and is even more restricted in the circumstances it is useful.
This is why I have no problem with someone who has Battle Dress skill trading in 3 Armour MO benefits for a suit of TL 13 Basic Battle Dress. It's not really the big deal some people make it out to be. Of course some of the same people seem outraged that the players want more than an Autopistol etc. for their characters. In an Imperium filled with pirates and hostile aliens etc., a little firepower is sometimes neccessary. This doesn't mean you should go completely psycho and allow everything without restrictions, but it should be based on a realistic assessment of the capabilities of the equipment desired. If the Battle Dress wearing character becomes a problem, a sniper with a TL 5 Anti-Tank Rifle and some DSAP ammo will easily take care of the "Problem" (An average of 17 points of damage through the armour without adding effect.).
This is why I have no problem with someone who has Battle Dress skill trading in 3 Armour MO benefits for a suit of TL 13 Basic Battle Dress. It's not really the big deal some people make it out to be. Of course some of the same people seem outraged that the players want more than an Autopistol etc. for their characters. In an Imperium filled with pirates and hostile aliens etc., a little firepower is sometimes neccessary. This doesn't mean you should go completely psycho and allow everything without restrictions, but it should be based on a realistic assessment of the capabilities of the equipment desired. If the Battle Dress wearing character becomes a problem, a sniper with a TL 5 Anti-Tank Rifle and some DSAP ammo will easily take care of the "Problem" (An average of 17 points of damage through the armour without adding effect.).
justacaveman
Mongoose
The criminals that are using Combat Armour and Battle Dress on low tech planets are called pirates, and they already have the equipment. PC's usually are not running around pirating low tech planets.
On this low tech planet we're on now, I (I'm in America.) can go to a local gun store and buy a Barrett Light-Fifty with few restrictions (The AP ammo is a little harder to get, but not impossible.). Low tech planets that have commerce with the Imperium would have SWAT teams with weapons capable of taking heavy armour out of action. They have them in this country, and we don't have such armour to worry about.
On this low tech planet we're on now, I (I'm in America.) can go to a local gun store and buy a Barrett Light-Fifty with few restrictions (The AP ammo is a little harder to get, but not impossible.). Low tech planets that have commerce with the Imperium would have SWAT teams with weapons capable of taking heavy armour out of action. They have them in this country, and we don't have such armour to worry about.
Egil Skallagrimsson
Mongoose
I think that the sum total of this is very few of us allow BD as a benefit, and a few more allow CA, but not that many, unless we are running a specifically Merc or military campaign.
The trouble with all the posts that point out how weak/overpriced BD is, is that BD is still better than any other armour available and so increases your odds of survival while killing the enemy. All the points about some weapons able to overcome BD miss the point, a man in CA or flak jacket has even less chance.
Egil
The trouble with all the posts that point out how weak/overpriced BD is, is that BD is still better than any other armour available and so increases your odds of survival while killing the enemy. All the points about some weapons able to overcome BD miss the point, a man in CA or flak jacket has even less chance.
Egil
justacaveman
Mongoose
An Autorifle in CSC is 3d6+3 (Average 13). Using DSAP ammo you will only get about 3 points through TL 13 Battle Dress unless you are very good shot.
alex_greene
Guest
The only guy outside of Battle Dress who ever got away with being able to fire a minigun from the hip was Jesse Ventura.DFW said:Somebody said:
And, a police officer can be in a battle cruiser. LOL! If you want to move the goal posts to Mars next, let me know.
justacaveman
Mongoose
I did forget the +4 damage for firing a burst. At TL 6 there aren't many sighting aids available, so you need to be a good shot and spend some time aiming.
If you have to use low tech weapons to fight someone in BD, it's best to ambush them.
If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.
If you have to use low tech weapons to fight someone in BD, it's best to ambush them.
If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.
DFW said:
Of course not everybody uses those overpowered ammunitions making armour of any kind pretty much useless...
With just plain autorifle it's pretty darned to take out one quickly. Especially since BD has huge mobility advantage. Can't really be aiming all that much against target that keeps moving fast behind cover all the time.
So you shoot, maybe hurt him slightly and then he fires back with PGMP/FGMP. You toast
justacaveman
Mongoose
If you want a nice TL 8 civilian rifle to take out Battle Dress, use a Poni Gun (CSC page 75). Load it with DSAP ammo, and you'll get 11 points through the armour with an average shot. It only holds 2 shots, so it would be best not to miss. You could add a laser sight, and spend a minor action to aim, giving you a +2 to hit. If you just had Gun Combat (slug rifle) 2, you only need to roll a 3 to hit the target. If you rolled a 7, you would have effect 4 on the shot, and do 15 points through the armour. Hit with both shots, and the guy in BD is just wearing an expensive coffin.
justacaveman
Mongoose
Battle Dress has no mobility advantage over anyone else, they do have an endurance advantage.
If you successfully ambush someone, you'll most likely get 2 shots before they can react at all. If you're sniping them with an Antitank Rifle that's loaded with DSAP ammo, this will probably mean that they will get NO actions, since dead people usually quit moving.
And yes this kind of ammo is available now, and has been for decades . In the US military, DSAP ammo is called SLAP (Saboted Light Armor Piercing). More commonly used is API. (Armor Piercing Incendiary), which penetrates armour and sets it on fire internally. Let's see how the guy in BD reacts to that. That'll surely ruin your day.
If you successfully ambush someone, you'll most likely get 2 shots before they can react at all. If you're sniping them with an Antitank Rifle that's loaded with DSAP ammo, this will probably mean that they will get NO actions, since dead people usually quit moving.
And yes this kind of ammo is available now, and has been for decades . In the US military, DSAP ammo is called SLAP (Saboted Light Armor Piercing). More commonly used is API. (Armor Piercing Incendiary), which penetrates armour and sets it on fire internally. Let's see how the guy in BD reacts to that. That'll surely ruin your day.
justacaveman said:
One would say if BD troopers get ambushed they have done something wrong. One would think noticing ambushers in suspiciously ambushing spot by scanners(you don't think BD troopers would be smart enough to *gasp* use scanners? Plenty of scanners out there) would kinda alert them...
So you are basically banking on theory of BD troopers being total idiots...Kinda unrealistic assumption if you ask me.
That's if GM allows use of such overpowered ammo's or hasn't fixed the issue by making sure armour is uparmoured accordingly. Any ammunition that makes all armour moot point without costing arm and teeth shouldn't exists.
So in my games either no such ammo allowed or all armours have bigger armour values. LOT bigger. Especially high end of armour(combat and BD in particular).
CSC was big mistake in that it suddenly invalidates basic equipment & all armour became useless. Why pay for even flak jacket when it's 100% useless.
Not sure about Central Supply Catalogue, but if we're moving beyond the main rulebook, Mercenary has a few useful bits of kit for the Mobile Infantry Wannabee (IFF HUD and Gyro-stabilizer Rig) and you're always able to up the ante to Artillery Battle Dress. Armour 20 and a twin Shuriken Ca....sorry, Mag-Rail Minigun....makes for something a lot scarier than conventional BD. Especially if you start adding in subdermal armour and/or the augmetics in the new Signs & Portents, like the IMA Grunt Exoskeleton or Frontier Armoured Skin replacement.
No, battle dress isn't the death of worlds and the drinker of suns. But it is quite nice. Sadly, it is a lot more than 'quite' expensive.
Is it worth the cost? In the abstract of equipping a mercenary regiment, no. Give 'em poly carapace and the god-given sense to use cover and you'll do fine. In the specific and much less cost-sensitive sense of me being the PC inside it and being shot at? Hell yes.
Is it overpriced? Probably. Not so much that it is an unrealistic price, but that the strength bonus is only really ever relevant when toting heavy weapons that PCs should be even less likely to have than the Battle Dress, and the benefit of the armour plate being made 'weightless' doesnt really affect the rules - but I can assure you that being after forced to tab a few miles in combat armour you'd damn well know about it.
Vaguely on topic:
Can you get Battle Dress as a Mustering Out gift in the core rules? No.
Would it be devastatingly broken if you could? No, it just doesn't seem like the sort of thing you're likely to be allowed out of the door with, in the same way you might be allowed to keep your service sidearm but not the heavy machine gun you spent your career manning.
Is it possible to get Battle Dress for a new PC? Yes. The last six pages of waffle represent people's opinions. If there is a disagreement between the GM's opinion and the rulebook, on any subject, then as far as that game is concerned the rulebook is wrong, end of.
justacaveman
Mongoose
So you're saying that some types of present day, real ammo, don't exist in your world because you don't like it?
These are current and actual ammunition types that are used now BECAUSE they penetrate armour much better than ball ammunition. And, yes they do make armour much less effective. And we weren't really talking about a large group of soldiers in BD, just 1 or 2 PC's with limited resources. Not having certain weapons penetrate armour better, is just plain silly. The whole point I was making is that it's easy to deal with a heavily armoured character if you know what you're doing and make a decent plan of action.
This does not mean you should allow PC 's to run all over the galaxy in Combat Armour and Battle Dress. In most places this would not be allowed, and would be inappropriate to the situation. This also doesn't mean that such equipment isn't useful either. It means that you use the right equipment for the circumstances that you find yourself in.
These are current and actual ammunition types that are used now BECAUSE they penetrate armour much better than ball ammunition. And, yes they do make armour much less effective. And we weren't really talking about a large group of soldiers in BD, just 1 or 2 PC's with limited resources. Not having certain weapons penetrate armour better, is just plain silly. The whole point I was making is that it's easy to deal with a heavily armoured character if you know what you're doing and make a decent plan of action.
This does not mean you should allow PC 's to run all over the galaxy in Combat Armour and Battle Dress. In most places this would not be allowed, and would be inappropriate to the situation. This also doesn't mean that such equipment isn't useful either. It means that you use the right equipment for the circumstances that you find yourself in.
