Multiclassing BTB

[Leo]

Hi All

I have a question about multiclassing in the Conan RPG 2nd edition. With multiclass characters I have been treating things such as base parry/dodge bonuses and saves the way the "F" series seems to: additive. So, for example, a 3rd level Soldier/2nd level Borderer would have a Fort save class bonus of 6: 3 for Borderer plus 3 for Soldier. (e.g. see the Savage Scout on pg 111 of Fiercest) But this would be better than a 5th level Soldier's +4, and the Soldier is better at Fort than a Borderer!

So by 'diluting' Soldier's mighty fortitude with the Borderer's lesser fortitude, we end up with a better fortitude. Seems odd. Am I way off? In the Conan RPG 2nd edition rules, I can't find any clear description of what happens to such bonuses with multiclasses. Does such a description exist?

Cheers, Leo

 

[kintire]

No, you are correct. There are bonuses to getting a lot of first level classes, balanced by the lack of access to the higher level abilities.

 

[treeplanter]

No, you are correct. There are bonuses to getting a lot of first level classes, balanced by the lack of access to the higher level abilities.

In my game i want to remove the +2 from save at first level when you multilcass if you already got it from another class. Otherwise it is too advantageous to multiclass in a save perspective.

Look at it: a 9th level barbarian have 6/6/3. A 3 barb/3 bord/3 nomad would have 9/9/3. That sum to 21 vs 15. That SIX point difference. Take a 10 barb/10 pirate. He'll have 14/14/6 vs 12/12/6 for a 20th level of either class. A first grade student could have done the math correctly.

Balanced by the lack of access to the higher level? What are the high level ability worth a +4 to +6 in save difference? Greater mobility, and maybe ferocious attack from pirate are the only high level ability I would really want. Also, the save benefit is immediate, while the high level ability, well, how much game session are you really gonna use them?

 

[kintire]

In my game i want to remove the +2 from save at first level when you multilcass if you already got it from another class. Otherwise it is too advantageous to multiclass in a save perspective.

Bear in mind that Conan d20 is overtly attempting to encourage people to multiclass. That said...

Balanced by the lack of access to the higher level? What are the high level ability worth a +4 to +6 in save difference?

Depends on the save to a degree but mostly yes. With sorcerers in Conan reduced to major end of scenario bad guys in numbers, I have found saves MUCH less important in Conan. You just don't get the magic thrown at you. Fortitude us still pretty important, but Will is a pretty rare roll and Reflex is downright endangered. i can't remember my last one. There just aren't any fireballs to dodge. Apart from the occasional Very Big Falling Thing, they aren't used, and we mostly use Dodge Defence for that.

 

[treeplanter]

Well reflexe is not used much as a save, but it is used every combat for initiative. So your multiclass Barb/thief will always have +2 to + 3 init with the same level barb, nomad, borderer pirate. Same logic apply with fortitude.

I agree multiclassing is cool, but you already get lot of benefit from it, And single class can be cool too. Aslo, Lot of good class power are early level. 2 level of soldier is 2 bonus feat, sneak attack, ferocious attack, uncanny dodge, and so on. Greater mobility chain with 3 class, and powerful effect can be took with chain of feat.

I don't think this huge difference in save for single class vs multiclass is justified.

 

[kintire]

I'm sceptical about the value of initiative too. I'd prefer the class features every time.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Initiative is much more important in Conan than in standard D20, mainly due to the massive damage rules. If you tweak/nerf the MD rule, you also change the importance of initiative.

Concerning Saves, yes, they add up just as per the tables in the F books. And yes, a Sol-3 Bor-2 gets higher Fort than any single-cassed character. But that's okay and intentional. Think of breeding a hybrid whose parent's perks add up instead of averaging. It's been like this ever since D&D 3rd ed came out in 2000 (and this discussion has been done over and over ever since).

ALSO and more importantly, in Conan the increased Save is balanced right from the start, not only in endgame. A Sol/Bor develops his Defense more slowly. At level 5 he is 1 Parry point short (compared to Soldier); at level 10 it's 2 points. In the end he loses 3 Parry but never gains more than those 2 Fort.

So long story short, it is UNNECESSARY and UNFAIR to shaft a multiclassing player out of these extra +2 Fort points. It's a double punishment for a behaviour that the game explicitly encourages. Nuff said.

 

[Leo]

I can see what you mean in the context of the Conan RPG encouraging multiclassing, especially as the title character is a perfect example. I wouldn't equate the robustness that comes to a species from genetic diversity with the benefits an adult might get from pursuing multiple career paths, but since terms like 'fortitude' and 'will' are open to interpretation, I agree that rehashing a 10-year old argument about the multiclassing rule would be a waste of time.

Speaking of the rules for multiclassing, I cannot seem to find them in the Conan RPG 2e. I have been extrapolating from examples in the various books, but I haven't found a place where the rules are laid out. In the Base Attack Bonus section of the Corebook (pg. 39) we are told to see the Multiclass Characters section. I can find no such section except the brief entry on pg. 41 which doesn't mention saves. I don't own the 1st or Atlantean editions, so I haven't seen whether the rules are there. Is it a carryover from the d20 SRD?

Thanks for your assistance.

 

[kintire]

I suspect it is. The rules for multiclassing in Conan are that you get what it says on the table!

 

[treeplanter]

it's the way d20 is done. you just stack everything.

@Cloven: He have 3 less parry than a straight soldier, but 2 more than a straight borderer. The thing is, look at everything else (bab, defense, skills point, hit point, MAB). It stack correctly. So you're 10/10 you between +15 to +20 bab, so equivalent to a single class. Defense, you can get somewhat delayed on double-odd level (a 5/5 bord/nomad will have only +4 vs +5 for single class), but overall it is the same thing.

But not save. because you get a free +2 at level 1 that does not follow normal progression. It is exactly like let say, every time you take a new class, you gain max HP at level one. How fair is that?

The save rule are just badly written. I don't see how exactly it is unfair to change it. On the opposite, it look more fair too me, as it balance single and multiclass character.