Mongoose Traveller Stats Are Too Powerful

[Supplement Four]

Yup, this tallies with my experience too. A 15 Edu should give you lots of benefits over any area where education might be helpful. Similarly, so should a high Intelligence or Dexterity.

I agree that stats should influence task rolls. I agree that a character with a higher stat should have a better chance of succeeding than a character with a lower stat.

There is no issue there.

My complaint, as described in the OP and the topic of this thread, is that the Stat bonus is too high.



Let's look at this issue from a different angle....

Let's define what each level of skill means. From what I've seen of the V2 Playtest, Mongoose is keeping skill level low, which is a good thing when dealing with 2D6.

Medic is easy to analyze, so let's use that one.

Let's get all agree on what each skill level means, then move forward with the discussion from there.



Agree, or Disagree...

Skill-0 - Basic introduction to the skill. Medic-0 means the character knows more than the average Joe about medicine, but just a tad more.

Skill-1 - Employable experience. Medic-1 would be a paramedic.

Skill-2 - Experienced worker. Medic-2 would be a critical care nurse in a hospital.

Skill-3 - Professional. A practicing doctor would be Medic-3.

Skill-4 - Extreme Professional. A doctor noted in his field--maybe a specialist--would be a Medic-4.

Skill-5 - Expert Professional. One of the most experienced professionals most people ever get the opportunity to meet. Famous in his field. This would be Medic-5.

Skill-6 or better - Very rare. Each skill increase is exponentially greater than the last.



Now, here's what I'm asking you to do....

Look at those skill definitions. Make some changes, if you like. Let's all come to a consensus on what each Skill level denotes.

Then, we'll move forward with the discussion.

 

[TrippyHippy]

Agree, or Disagree...

Skill-0 - Basic introduction to the skill. Medic-0 means the character knows more than the average Joe about medicine, but just a tad more.

Skill-1 - Employable experience. Medic-1 would be a paramedic.

Skill-2 - Experienced worker. Medic-2 would be a critical care nurse in a hospital.

Skill-3 - Professional. A practicing doctor would be Medic-3.

Skill-4 - Extreme Professional. A doctor noted in his field--maybe a specialist--would be a Medic-4.

Skill-5 - Expert Professional. One of the most experienced professionals most people ever get the opportunity to meet. Famous in his field. This would be Medic-5.

Skill-6 or better - Very rare. Each skill increase is exponentially greater than the last.

Disagree, somewhat, actually.

Skill-0: Basic training. Medic-0 would be a trained first aider, in effect.
Skill-1: Semi-Professional. Agree - about Paramedic level.
Skill-2: Professional. Junior Doctor/Nurse.
Skill-3: Expert. Fully qualified doctor.
Skill-4: Leader of field - essentially as you describe it.
Skill-5: World Class.

Points of difference are that:

a) I'd actually regard the Skill:0 not as rudimentary as you suggest. In game terms it represents a leap from a less than 10% chance of success, to a 41% chance of success on basic tasks. I prefer to see this as basic training.

b) I think the medical skill is a loaded issue, insofar that you expect a high degree of competance before professional status is awarded. You might not have such a high expectation on your local garage mechanic, however, who might earn a good living on just a Mechanic-2 skill.

c) I don't see the point of having skill levels higher than 5. Level 6 effectively means no chance of failure for normal tasks. Not withstanding the game mechanic of allowing automatic successes for taking time, etc, I think all stressed Tasks should have a chance of failure. So no skill levels beyond 5 for me.

So what do you want to know?

 

[Klaus Kipling]

Level 0 is much more than that. I'd say level 0 is akin to the skill level of a recent graduate in whatever field they studied in, but before they gain any practical experience in their (new) job. Level 0 is qualified.

So the paramedic would be level 0, a nurse 1 or 2, and a doctor 2 or 3 or more.

The normal bonus would be +1, or perhaps +2. A +3 is suitably rare (in all the hundreds of Traveller characters I've produced using a variety of methods I can count the number of characters I've rolled with a 15 on one hand).

A 15 Edu would represent several degrees, quite a few masters, and more than one doctorate. I'd pretty much expect such a person to be at least the equal of a recent graduate in more or less any field.

Whatever problem there is here (and I certainly don't see one), the fix is worse than any marginal problem in the first place.

 

[Supplement Four]

OK, Trippy, I think you and I are in agreement as to what the skill levels mean (Klaus, I'm thinking you're off base a bit in your interpretation of what the skill levels mean).

I agree with what Trippy and Klaus said about Skill-0. It's basic training. I probably expressed it as too-little experience earlier in the thread.

So, these are the definitions we're going with:

Skill-0: Basic training. Medic-0 would be a trained first aider, in effect.
Skill-1: Semi-Professional. Paramedic level.
Skill-2: Professional. Junior Doctor/Nurse.
Skill-3: Expert. Fully qualified doctor.
Skill-4: Leader of Field. Noted doctor/highly experienced/specialist
Skill-5: World Class. World Class Expert.



Let me address your points of difference, too:

a) I'd actually regard the Skill:0 not as rudimentary as you suggest. In game terms it represents a leap from a less than 10% chance of success, to a 41% chance of success on basic tasks. I prefer to see this as basic training.

Well put. Agreed. Changed the Skill Definitions above to reflect it.

b) I think the medical skill is a loaded issue, insofar that you expect a high degree of competance before professional status is awarded. You might not have such a high expectation on your local garage mechanic, however, who might earn a good living on just a Mechanic-2 skill.

The reason Medical is a good skill to use (and not a loaded issue) is because it's an area of expertise that people know and are comfortable with. The medical profession lends itself to "levels" in Basic Trained/Paramedic/Nurse/Doctor/Specialist/..etc.

Using Medical is good because it will keep the discussion from going off-topic with arguments on what a Mechanic-2 is or what a Pilot-4 is.

It's perfect for this discussion.

c) I don't see the point of having skill levels higher than 5. Level 6 effectively means no chance of failure for normal tasks. Not withstanding the game mechanic of allowing automatic successes for taking time, etc, I think all stressed Tasks should have a chance of failure. So no skill levels beyond 5 for me.

I'm with you. The system allows for higher skill levels, though, so I thought, to be complete, I'd mention them, however unlikely they may be in a real game.

So what do you want to know?

Simple.

If a character with EDU-12 who has never been exposed to any medical schooling or experience in the past takes a basic medicine course (or whatever the rules allow for in gaining Medic-0), should that character then be as competent as a critical care nurse in a hospital?

This is my problem. The rules, as they stand now, say "yes".

 

[TrippyHippy]

Simple.

If a character with EDU-12 who has never been exposed to any medical schooling or experience in the past takes a basic medicine course (or whatever the rules allow for in gaining Medic-0), should that character then be as competent as a critical care nurse in a hospital?

Yes. It shows the advantage of a powerful Education: that the character can glean nuances and insights that other characters might miss, from basic training, and establish mental procedures that would make him/her much more competant in the execution of the skill when learnt.

This is my problem. The rules, as they stand now, say "yes".

What's the problem?

 

[Supplement Four]

f a character with EDU-12 who has never been exposed to any medical schooling or experience in the past takes a basic medicine course (or whatever the rules allow for in gaining Medic-0), should that character then be as competent as a critical care nurse in a hospital?

This is my problem. The rules, as they stand now, say "yes".

Yet Another Idea For A Fix.

Here's a simle rule that I think might solve this issue. Easy to implement. Fixes the problem.

Let's say that Stat bonuses can never been higher than your skill level.

If you're Skill-0, then you use no bonus.

If you're Skill-1, then you can use a max +1 DM from your stat.

If you're Skill-2, then you can use a max +2 DM, if you have the stat for it.

If you're Skill-3 or higher, you can use the +3 DM if your Stat-15 is applicable.

How about that?

We're still faced with the problem of how to handle the penalty DMs for stat. Maybe they are used all the time, regardless of skill.

I think this would certainly solve my issue with the system. Needs some more thought, of course.

(I'm trying to find a solution...)

 

[Supplement Four]

What's the problem?

Isn't it obvioius?

EDU-12 is fairly common.

But, it's not realistic at all to say that a person with that type of educational background can take a Basic Medical Course and then be as successful treating patients as an experienced Critical Care Nurse who has been doing the job for years.

That's the issue. Stats provide too much of a benefit. Stats are overweighted. Hard expertience in a field is devalued.

The system is not doing a good job of mirroring real life experience.

 

[TrippyHippy]

1 in 36 isn't fairly common!

And you are forgetting that the Critical Care Nurse could have bonuses/penalties of her own too.

A Critical Care Nurse without a decent level of Education, even with experience, could be a liability. Victorian era Nurses, for example, weren't educated in the necessity for basic hygiene - hence patients were as likely to die because of their care, as they were to get better! Basic Education is critically important here.

Try not to think of having a high Education as a substitute for skill - think of it as supplemental to the skill - and that the quality of the skill delivered is enhanced or detracted by a basic knowledge of the world.

 

[Supplement Four]

1 in 36 isn't fairly common!

Before CharGen, no, of course not.

After CharGen, yes.

And you are forgetting that the Critical Care Nurse could have bonuses/penalties of her own too.

The example would have been EDU-12, Medic-0 vs. EDU-8, Medic-2.

Try not to think of having a high Education as a substitute for skill - think of it as supplemental to the skill - and that the quality of the skill delivered is enhanced or detracted by a basic knowledge of the world.

See, that's the problem. The bonuses high Stat gives is just as solid and contributes to the success of a roll just as much as a skill level.

When a +1 DM is a +1 DM, no matter where it comes from, why wouldn't one think of the DM as a substitute for skill?

If you're a professional doctor with EDU-8 and Medic-3, you roll the same dice (of 2D +3) as the EDU-15 and Medic-0 character.

I'd think about stats not being a substitute for skill if thats the way the game mechanics treated them.

But, as it is, the DMs are interchangeable.

They are substitutes for each other.

 

[Supplement Four]

Try not to think of having a high Education as a substitute for skill - think of it as supplemental to the skill - and that the quality of the skill delivered is enhanced or detracted by a basic knowledge of the world.

BTW, this would support my idea of a fix above where Stat bonuses are only applied at the level of skill.

If you've got EDU-12 and Medic-1, you'd only get a +1 DM for skill and a +1 DM for Stat, for a total of 2D +2.

Using that fix I proposed above would, indeed, make stats supplemental to skill.

 

[Supplement Four]

And...ANOTHER idea for a Fix...


Here's another thing that could be done to fix the problem (although this idea is more "game changing" than my previous one).

What about if every task were not only rated for difficulty (a target number), but also for a competency level?

Stat bonuses stay the same. Each task is described with a minimum skill needed to attempt the task.

If the character doesn't have the skill, the task might be still attempted with a penalty.

We could use the "No Skill" penalty of -3 DM.

To go back to the example a couple of posts above, where we compared the EDU-8, Medical-2 nurse to the EDU-12, Medical-0 basic first aider...

A typical task for a critical care nurse would be done with a competency level-2. If the character has Medical-2 or greater, he throws the task normally. If the character has Medical-1 or less, he throws the task normally with a -3 DM.

The task could be written something like this: Medical-2, EDU, 8+

That tells you that an 8+ roll is needed. Medical-2 is required or a -3 DM is used. And EDU governs the task.

How about that?

All Stat bonuses and penalties stay the same under this idea of a fix.






EDIT...

The more I think about it, the more I like this idea. It's a simple little change. The Mongoose Task System remains intact.

For many tasks, the competency will be Stat-0. That's exactly how it is already.

But, the GM can raise the competency if needed. You should see this in "Professionl" tasks, like Piloting, Engineering, or Medicine.

Character must have the indicated skill at the indicated level, or a -3 DM is used.

Folks! I think this IDEA is the fix we're looking for!

 

[TrippyHippy]

Before CharGen, no, of course not.

After CharGen, yes.

It's still going to require several favourable rolls to get it to that level - you may choose lots of rolls to try and boost EDU, but you'll still only have a 1 in 6 chance of getting a +1 bonus each time you try. A Characteristic score of 12 is a good, high score and not common. It's a reasonable point to make.

The example would have been EDU-12, Medic-0 vs. EDU-8, Medic-2.

So, for example, the EDU score could denote the technological level of the society that the nurse was trained in. A nurse who has been trained to a professional level for several years in a Tech-8 society could be matched by a basically trained amateur individual who was strongly educated in a Tech-12 society, instead.

Again, I'd say this was a reasonable interpretation.

The bonuses high Stat gives is just as solid and contributes to the success of a roll just as much as a skill level.

When a +1 DM is a +1 DM, no matter where it comes from, why wouldn't one think of the DM as a substitute for skill?

If you're a professional doctor with EDU-8 and Medic-3, you roll the same dice (of 2D +3) as the EDU-15 and Medic-0 character.

I'd think about stats not being a substitute for skill if thats the way the game mechanics treated them.

But, as it is, the DMs are interchangeable.

They are substitutes for each other.

The bonuses you collect are ultimately going to be an abstraction one way or the other. Ultimately, the problem is how you interpret them currently - rather than the application of the mechanic itself.

As has been argued before, the extent of your problem with this interpretation is not enough to outweigh the added mechanical complexity of the suggestions you have made to rectify them. And for many players, it isn't enough of a problem to worry about much at all.

 

[Supplement Four]

As has been argued before, the extent of your problem with this interpretation is not enough to outweigh the added mechanical complexity of the suggestions you have made to rectify them.

Not so...when you consider the clean and easy fix I just presented above. We're not talking about added mechanical complexity with my latest idea.

I think it's what the Mongoose System needs.

It fixes all problems, cleanly, easily.

 

[TrippyHippy]

It's an interesting idea, but it's not as simple as saying 'make a standard Medical test' (8+ is standard as it stands).

Maybe a sidebar option, is what you can hope for, or a house rule, obviously if you like it. But email it in anyway.

 

[weasel_fierce]

A very simple solution is to apply either stat OR skill to a roll, but never both.

 

[Emryys]

For many tasks, the competency will be Stat-0. That's exactly how it is already.

But, the GM can raise the competency if needed. You should see this in "Professionl" tasks, like Piloting, Engineering, or Medicine.

Character must have the indicated skill at the indicated level, or a -3 DM is used.

This seems the simplist and most straight forward for the perceived problem. Raise the bar for the minimum skill required is a standard GM tool in CT... FWIR

 

[Klaus Kipling]

Isn't this skill training vs high stat issue already accounted for by the fact that skill applies to effect dice but stat doesn't.

In the very few cases where this may be an issue, effect dice would probably be used.

And, a 15 Edu geezer with no training in a skill might succeed as many times as a skill 0 geezer, but he'd still suffer a -3 to his effect dice, so never get more than an average success.

And a high education gifted amateur (skill 0) will never be able to equal a master (skill 4) at his work, though may reach professional standard, and has a lot less chance of being exceptional (the master gets +4 to his effect die).

....

Um, I can't seem to find the bit that made me understand mods to the effect die like that..

I think I felt it was implied by the combat example. But maybe this is the kind of minor fix to sort this out?

 

[Mongoose Gar]

The stat-not-adding-to-effect rule was in V1, isn't in V2. I'm flip-flopping on it.

 

[AKAramis]

The stat-not-adding-to-effect rule was in V1, isn't in V2. I'm flip-flopping on it.

Stat definitely should be dropped out of the effect and time calcs. Works much better that way. It makes a clear difference between capable of succeeding and capable of succeeding well.

 

[TrippyHippy]

I think the bottom line for me, is that if you create too many stipulations in the core mechanic of the game, then lots of people are just going to end up ignoring them anyway.

I like the notation of the Effect being increased by only the skill level. Personally, I'd leave it at that. As I say, when dealing with abstractions, you have to draw the line somewhere - and leave the rest to interpretation.

My interpretation of the bonus for high Education scores is simply that broad education creates an organised, knowledgeable mind that can be effectively focused to different 'proceduralised' tasks, quickly. I also hold the analogy that high skilled characters with low Education scores tend to equate with dedicated professionals trained in backwards technological societies, while characters with high Education ratings have been brought up in more technologically advanced societies.

As illustrated before with the example of historical changes in medical hygiene, it's not just your dedication to training that makes your task resolution favourable, it's also the quality of your general background knowledge too. I have a better grasp of chemistry, for example, than John Dee (the Rennaissence Alchemist), but I bet his skill in the field was much more learned than mine. The quality of one's education has an impact on these things.