Mongoose Traveller Stats Are Too Powerful

[Supplement Four]

I came over from the CotI forums, looking for an official playtest thead. I don't see it.

Anyway, I see the Mongoose Task System is an approximation of my Universal Game Mechanic (that I wrote for Classic Traveller), so I take that as a good sign.

One thing, though...

The stats...I think they're weighted way too high.

Follow me on my line of thinking...

Stats represent natural ability. Skills represent trained ability.

Stats are broad, effecting a substantial range of task throws.

OTOH, Skills are narrow, only influencing task throws that involve that particular skill.

So...

When you increase the bonus derived from a stat, you're increasing his chance of success on a large number of expertise areas. And, that's how it should be.

The problem is when that stat-benefit is as influential as trained ability.

Let me give you a detailed example of what I'm talking about:



Fred takes a six month training course (using the training rules in V2 playtest) and becomes knowledgable with Medic-0.

Now, Fred has always been a good student. He's got a photogenic memory, and he's never had to study much. If he'd apply himself, he'd be a genius. EDU-15.

Fred has never studied medicine except for the recent six month training course. We know this because, during character generation, the player roll boxcars for Fred's EDU. This is pre-adult education. Then, through CharGen (Fred was a Marine), his EDU was increased by three points. Since Fred never received Medic skill, we can assume his exposure to medicine was minimal.

BUT...

BECAUSE Fred's EDU is so high, he gets a +3 DM on his Medic throws.



Now, compare Fred with Sam. Sam has an EDU-8. Not that shabby. And, Sam has struggled through medical school. He's not a professional. He's a doctor. He's got Medic-3.

Sam, when making Medic throws also gets a +3 DM to his throws.



See the problem here? It's a common one. I've seen this pop up in other task systems as well.

A good task system will consider where the benefit is coming from. Certainly, a trained doctor, who's gone to medical school, should have a much better chance at healing people than another person who's only had a six month class and no experience (even if that person is extremely well educated).



My suggestion to fix this, with the Mongoose Traveller Task System, is to tone down the influence of stats. This is the main reason why I, when developing the UGM, kept a tight lid on the effect of a character's attributes. With the UGM, stats provide a +0 or +1 DM most of the time, while only the very high stats provided a +2 DM (and that +2 DM is only useful to the easier tasks....One wouldn't get a +2 DM on a very hard task).

Also note that Classic Traveller, as well, respected the influence of stats, never allowing them to overpower what a skill would bring to the table (unless the GM decided to make it so).

Remember, we're dealing with a 2D6 system. Each +1 DM provides a HUGE benefit. I believe a stat, using this system, should never provide more than a +2 DM...and that should happen infrequently and only at the highest level of stat.

There are ways to fix this. One way is to do what I did with the UGM (where the task roll determines if the stat provided benefit...and the weight chance is that stat benefit only comes on easier tasks, not on the harder ones). But, there are other ways to approach the issue as well.

 

[SableWyvern]

You have noted that a +3 from a stat only kicks in at a value of 15, the human maximum?

If your natural ability is at the peak of human possibility, I have no issue with basic professional training (which, according to the general consensus on these forums, seems to be what 0-level skills represent) enabling you to perform at the level of a less naturally gifted master.

For +2 bonuses, an attribute of 12-14 still places you in the top few percentiles. Using the default stat rolling method, very few characters will get such a bonus, and I think 12 is a reasonable point to start providing an extra +1, even if an argument could be made that it's a little generous.

 

[Supplement Four]

You have noted that a +3 from a stat only kicks in at a value of 15, the human maximum?

I have. But, don't forget, the +3 DM from EDU applies to every skill governed by EDU.

Let me show you the problem from a slightly different angle. It's easy to concede that EDU-15 is so high, the peak of human learning and knowledge, that a prodigy is born to where a character with just a few months studying medicine (Medic-0) can operate (pardon the pun) as well as an experienced doctor who went to medical school (Medic-3).

I've got a little problem with that, but I can see how some gamers can "buy" it.

But, as I said above, EDU covers a vast number of skills.

So, are you OK with something like this happening in your game?



Fred, EDU-15, has these skills: Medic-0, Astrogation-0, Computers-0, Diplomat-0, Engineer-0, Pilot-0.

Does it seem "right" to you that Fred, although he has an incredible edcuational background, would be able to operate as a professional in such diverse fields as Medicine, Astrogation, Computers, Diplomacy, Engineerin, and Piloting?

Because that's what the rules say.

Fred gets a +3 DM in ALL of these fields (every type of throw governed by EDU--there are more).



So, in effect, we're saying that Fred, EDU-15, with Medic-0, Astrogation-0, Computers-0, Diplomat-0, Engineer-0, Pilot-0...

CAN ACTUALLY DO A BETTER JOB THAN ALL OF THE FOLLOWING PROFESSIONAL NPC's.

Peter, EDU-8, Medic-2

Tom, EDU-7, Astrogation-2.

Ernest, EDU-6, Computers-2.

Lilly, EDU-8, Diplomat-2.

Jake, EDU-7, Engineer-2.

Harold, EDU-6, Pilot-2.



Does Fred's EDU-15 make him a prodigy in ALL OF THOSE DIVERSE FIELDS?


In a game, do you really want Fred, EDU-15, Engineer-0 to have a higher chance of fixing the Jump Drive than the ship's Chief Engineer, Jake (EDU-7, Engineer-2)?

Fred's limited "beginner" experience with Pilot-0 makes him A BETTER pilot than a professional, Harold, who's been doing it for years? (EDU-6, Pilot-2).

You want Fred, with Diplomat-0 and EDU-15 to negotiate the treaty with the Zhodani rather than the actual experienced diplomat, Lilly, who has EDU-8 and Diplomat-2?

See what I'm getting at?



Stats are too powerful as the task system stands now.

Fred's EDU-15 gives him, in effect, professional level experience, when, in reality, he has nothing under his belt but the bear basics (all Skill-0 skills).

It's an extreme example, I know, but I think it highlights the problem.

 

[SableWyvern]

In the highly unlikely event that someone manages to reach EDU-15 in one of my games, yeah, I'm pretty sure that I could live with it.

As a side note, I wouldn't use EDU as the stat for actually carring out a negotiation (that would be SOC, or maybe INT). For high-stress (ie, combat) piloting checks, I'd probably also use INT (quickness of mind) rather than EDU.

You certainly have a point, I'm just not sure fixing the problem is going to create a net benefit. Limiting the application of stat bonuses to easy tasks isn't, to my mind, any more realistic than applying them to all tasks (wait, what, my Dex helps me shoot at Optimum range, but not at Close???). It adds a layer of complexity to create a situation that doesn't make any more sense than what we already have.

Upping the value for stat bonuses by one point across the board goes a long way towards a fairer spread, but then you get to the point where attribute bonuses are so rare you might as well drop them altogether.

 

[Supplement Four]

In the highly unlikely event that someone manages to reach EDU-15 in one of my games, yeah, I'm pretty sure that I could live with it.

But, why "live" with it? Why not fix it and have a GREAT task system?

As a side note, I wouldn't use EDU as the stat for actually carring out a negotiation (that would be SOC, or maybe INT). For high-stress (ie, combat) piloting checks, I'd probably also use INT (quickness of mind) rather than EDU.

Arguments on what EDU governs and what it doesn't is moot. Insert any stat and any skills for which you think that stat governs, and the problem arises.

You certainly have a point, I'm just not sure fixing the problem is going to create a net benefit.

I'm just pointing out the most gross effect of the problem. The problem is harder to see when the stat benefits are lower, but they're still there.

I was trying to show examples that throw as much light on the problem as possible.

The unskilled penalty helps a lot, but the problem rears its head when highly stated characters have Skill-0 skills.

And, the problem is harder to see, but it's still there when you compare a EDU-15, Skill-1 character to a EDU-8, Skill-4 character, and so on.

Stats are overweighted under the current task system.

Limiting the application of stat bonuses to easy tasks isn't, to my mind, any more realistic than applying them to all tasks (wait, what, my Dex helps me shoot at Optimum range, but not at Close???).

That's not quite what I was talking about...but, that's the UGM. It works nicely.

With the UGM, low stats hardly ever help a throw, but the chance is there where they will help.

Middle level stats help on most of your every-day throws, but don't give you any benefit when the tasks are real hard.

And, high level stats give you benefit all the time--more benefit when the task is easy.

Like I said, though, that's the UGM. I wrote that task system a couple of years ago. It's strikingly similar to what Mongoose is now using for their task system.

Upping the value for stat bonuses by one point across the board goes a long way towards a fairer spread, but then you get to the point where attribute bonuses are so rare you might as well drop them altogether.

I believe this can be fixed. I know it can. I fixed it with the UGM, and there are other ways than what I did to fix the problem.

The first step, though, is to recognize the problem. Once that's done, and Mongoose is committed to fixing it, ideas can be put forth to fix it.

 

[AKAramis]

Because it isn't broken, WJP/Supplement Four.

 

[Supplement Four]

Because it isn't broken, WJP/Supplement Four.

Wil, so you're OK with what Fred can do in the above example? You think that an EDU-15 score is so powerful, so all-knowing in all areas of knowledge, that Fred is a prodigy in EVERY area of expertise governed by the stat?

You don't think that's broken?!

 

[AKAramis]

Nope. Not at all. Especially since it's bloody hard to get a 15 stat, and said stat represents the peak of human potential.

As I've said before, your UGM undervalues innate ability (IE, Attributes) from my point of view.

For example, I've been playing the violin for 30 years or so. Assuming that I should have gained about 2 levels in it over the years, I'm still no concert violinist. Why? because a concert violinist is probably dex 12+ AND skill 3, and should be doing far better than I can with my probable dex 5 or 6 and skill 2. (Oh, and I've taught students to play better than myself in terms of practical performance, teaching them what I know how to do, which, BTW, is a larger set than what I can do.)

On the other hand, I've seen 2nd year students who play as well as I do, who have probably got just level 0, maybe level 1... and a rare few better than me.

The Draft task system works quite well in play. I like the -2 to +3 range (it's a 6 point scale; 7 if you count -3 for no score), a little nicer than the 5 point scale I've been using for years.

 

[Supplement Four]

Nope. Not at all. Especially since it's bloody hard to get a 15 stat, and said stat represents the peak of human potential.

That's what I thought you'd say, especially since you're so fond of the UTP. Stats are overweighted a bit in that task system too.

I've got a problem when I've got a crew of professionals that have a lower chance of success on tasks than individuals with bare-minimum introductory experience but high aptitude.

You've got a crew of three:

Piter the Pilot, DEX-8, Pilot-1
Neddor the Navigator, EDU-7, Astrogation-2
Erneri the Engineer, INT-6, Engineer-1

And, they have a single passenger: A young kid in his early 20's named Young. He's got DEX-9, EDU-12, INT-10, and Pilot-0, Astrogation-0, Engineer-0.

This young kid can do the exact same job as the professionals on the crew, in each instance.

There's a real problem there. I'm sorry you don't acknowledge it.

I've got a different way of expressing the problem. Let me put that in another post.

 

[Supplement Four]

Here's a third angle on this. Let's see if the problem is any clearer.

In real life, I graduated Summa Cum Laude from college. I went into medical sales immediately after school. I learned CPR and a few other things (my company specialized in wound care, so I learned a lot about bandages and stuff).

I knew enough to get myself a Medic-0 skill, but no more. My EDU stat is probably fairly high in Traveller terms. Just to be modest, let's say my EDU is 9.

Under the Mongoose system, I could throw a Medic task using a +1 DM.

Now, do you think I could do the same job as the paramedic who finished high school ( EDU-8 ) but has been riding in the back of an ambulance for a couple of years (Medic-1)?

Do you really think I have ANY hope of helping people who are hurt JUST because my EDU is higher than the paramedic?

I've got: EDU-9, Medic-0

Paramedic's got: EDU-8, Medic-1

Under the Mongoose rules, as they exist in V2, BOTH of us could do the same job.

I could be a paramedic!

See...in real life, that's about as far from the truth as you can get.

Thus, the problem rears its head again.

Is that any clearer?

 

[SableWyvern]

But, why "live" with it? Why not fix it and have a GREAT task system?

I'd live with it because I don't believe it would cause any problems, but it would help ensure that the player in question is happy with his character. That's a win in my books. Honestly, I think it's incredibly unlikely I'll see a natural 15 stat in a game I run; if one does crop up, kudos to the player that had the luck and took the risks to achieve it.

In short, I really don't see what your seeing as a problem that needs fixing.

Additionally, I'm not convinced a first aid course counts as Level-0 under the current system. It might reduce the unskilled penalty by a point, maybe two; the system doesn't bother distinguishing. As I mentioned previously, the general consensus around here is that Level-0 is an employable skill level. It doesn't sound like you could be employed primarily in a medical field, so your first aid training would not be Level-0. That renders the rest of your example false.

 

[AKAramis]

If you can't, then you aren't really Edu 9, or don't actually have level 0 skill.

 

[Supplement Four]

Why? because a concert violinist is probably dex 12+ AND skill 3, and should be doing far better than I can with my probable dex 5 or 6 and skill 2.

And...you've kinda highlighted the problem yourself without knowing it.

Let's take your DEX-12, Music (Violin)-3 concert violinist. He knows which end of a gun is the dangerous end. He knows how to brace himself, clean the weapon, and squeeze the trigger, but not much else. He never practices firing the weapon. Gun Combat (Slug Rifle)-0.

Why is it your concert violinist can shoot as well as a Marine who's just returned from a hot zone in Iraq? DEX-8, Gun Combat (Slug Rifle)-2?

Your concert violinist, who's barely been indoctrinated with firearms, can naturally shoot as well as a Combat Marine?

I don't buy it.

That's where the Mongoose system is broken.

 

[donm61873]

Several of us who disagree with you on COTI understand your point fully. We just disagree with your perception of its impact, or how best to fix the problem you are pointing at.

Let's just agree that while UGM seems nice, some of us prefer UTP; that doesn't make one wrong or the other wrong, it just means we disagree about what is the problem and what fixes it.

I actually like the current playtest mod implementation over UTP, as it penalizes for poor stats where MT really did not.

 

[SableWyvern]

Let's take your DEX-12, Music (Violin)-3 concert violinist. He knows which end of a gun is the dangerous end. He knows how to brace himself, clean the weapon, and squeeze the trigger, but not much else. He never practices firing the weapon. Gun Combat (Slug Rifle)-0.

Why is it your concert violinist can shoot as well as a Marine who's just returned from a hot zone in Iraq? DEX-8, Gun Combat (Slug Rifle)-2?

Your concert violinist, who's barely been indoctrinated with firearms, can naturally shoot as well as a Combat Marine?

Because the level-0 Gun Combat skill that gives him this ability represents professional, military-level training? Untrained, or with nothing more than a weapon-familiarisation briefing, he'd be at -3 relative to your combat vet, a huge disparity in a 2d6 system, as you yourself have pointed out.

 

[Supplement Four]

I think it's incredibly unlikely I'll see a natural 15 stat in a game I run;

What about the Iraq Combat Marine vs. the Concert Violinist example?

I was using Stat-15 to show the problem in the biggest light. The problem remains when the stats are lower.

Additionally, I'm not convinced a first aid course counts as Level-0 under the current system.

The current system says that, in order to gain a new skill, a character must train for a number of months equal to his total skill levels plus the new skill level. A character with 6 total skill levels would train (take a class) for 6 mos. in order to get Medic-0.

 

[Supplement Four]

Because the level-0 Gun Combat skill that gives him this ability represents professional, military-level training?

If a character goes into the Merchants and gets Gun Combat (Slug Rifle)-1, is that skill any different from the Gun Combat (Slug Rilfe)-1 skill that a soldier in the Imperial Army gets?

If that's true, why would you say that Gun Combat-0 for the character described above is different from the skill used by the professional military character?

 

[SableWyvern]

What about the Iraq Combat Marine vs. the Concert Violinist example?

I was using Stat-15 to show the problem in the biggest light. The problem remains when the stats are lower.

I've already answered that, with respect to what skill levels represent.

The current system says that, in order to gain a new skill, a character must train for a number of months equal to his total skill levels plus the new skill level. A character with 6 total skill levels would train (take a class) for 6 mos. in order to get Medic-0.

That is because players want to be able to develop skills in a reasonable time frame. It's a by-product of meta-game decisions designed to maximise enjoyment.

We can either look at the ability a skill level actually provides, and rate it's utility that way, or we can look at the training time required. The former constantly impacts on play and indicates what the character can actually do, which is much more reasonable basis, IMO, for forming such an opinion than to look at the training time involved -- especially when you consider that experience and character advancement is, across the wide spectrum of RPGs, almost always accelerated beyond human norms.

 

[AKAramis]

Because the level-0 Gun Combat skill that gives him this ability represents professional, military-level training?

If a character goes into the Merchants and gets Gun Combat (Slug Rifle)-1, is that skill any different from the Gun Combat (Slug Rilfe)-1 skill that a soldier in the Imperial Army gets?

If that's true, why would you say that Gun Combat-0 for the character described above is different from the skill used by the professional military character?

Because the concert violinist is unlikely to have Gun Combat 0 in MoTrav unless he's either multi-career with prior military service (and that's unlikely for a real Concert Violinist) or has had some serious adventures, or comes from a low law world.

I'm with Don. I DO understand your position. I just find it not credible.

And to be honest, you've complained (Recently, as in last 72 hours) that there really shouldn't be a formal task system. Kind of shoots your credibility on the "Perfectness" of the UGM in the foot, from where I sit.

 

[Deniable]

How about this. I've gone through school and worked with people who just have natural talent. They could do more than me with less training. This annoyed me, but I learned to deal with it. The game mechanic that represents this ability is the attribute. Some people are just naturally talented.

A handwave for EDU is that to get that high, someone must have done some serious learning. An attribute is not just raw ability, but the ability to use it. This means that the application of Medic-0 with EDU 15 is probably backed by a lot of general knowledge including anatomy, biology and so on. These aren't enough to rate skills in their own right, but they're enough to give the EDU bonus.

If you take two characters and give them both Medic-0, which is more likely to succeed? The guy from a modern society who has been taught 'how things work' from a young age or the primitive who's still learning the basics of anatomy or germ theory. They have the same skill, so they should have equal chances of success. If not, how do you represent this?