Missing Stateroom space

[Jak Nazryth]

A strange thing happened on the way to High Guard 2

25% of the stateroom space has disappear under the new rules.

Normally a 4 ton stateroom allocates 75% of its space to the quarters itself and the other 25% to common spaces, like lounges, galleys, etc... (3 tons for the room itself and the extra ton goes into common spaces)

However, under the new rules, 21 and 22 under Common Areas and Living Spaces, you now have to purchase common areas as a separate tonnage. At first I thought this paragraph was simply reiterating the old rule, because it mentions the 25% rule, and then it mentions the price. This confused me a lot, because traditionally you already pay for common space as it is part of the cost of staterooms.

My second thought was that this was simply an addition to the "free space" you already get from the size of the state room. And that you could enlarge the areas for more comfort if you so choose, because traditionally common rooms were on the small side, 1 ton of common space for every state room was the rule of thumb.

Then I started review the ship write ups and verifying it with the deck plans. In every single case, it is true... Now you have to take more space out of cargo and spend money on what used to be already purchased as a portion of the stateroom.
In the new scout courier, where once there was a small common area... NOW THERE IS NOTHING! Because no "common space" was purchased in the new ship formulas.
And you thought a term on a scout courier sucked in the past? Well wait to you board the new designs... you'll be longing for the good old days within an hour... no freaking common space in a scout ship... are you kidding?
So here is the rub. Every stateroom is drawn as a 3 ton space. But we pay for all four tons in the price, and subtract all 4 tons from the ships hull.

Question: Where did the extra ton of space go for each Stateroom?

Because it's not in the common areas. Don't tell me corridors. Corridors have always been fluff or at least a portion of the "free" common spaces and lounges. Because Stateroom are really expensive, and the cost of life support for each Stateroom is really expensive... and I can tell you as an Architect, a hall way is the cheapest thing to build, maintain, and condition (as in conditioned space / heat and cooling). There is no way a corridor should be part of the 500,000 credits price of a Stateroom,or even a tiny portion of that! If this new rule is correct, and you consider the corridor as the "missing 25% of the stateroom, that's 125,000 fracking credits for a 10' long corridor!!! Sorry... 3 meter long corridor!!!! One hundred twenty five thousand credits... for 3 meters of carpet!

WTF guys...

I cannot believe this is true. It has to be a mistake.

So where did my full 4 tons of stateroom go?

If in fact we now have to pay cash and volume for common spaces, I think the stateroom size needs to be dropped to 3 tons, not 4.

OR... every single star ship design has to be redesigned with a 4 ton "box" instead of a 3 ton "box".

There are some good things that HG2 has done, but this is not one of them. IMHO this is one huge screw up.

 

[AndrewW]

There are some good things that HG2 has done, but this is not one of them. IMHO this is one huge screw up.

It really didn't change. Staterooms are still usually 3 tons as they where in the earlier edition as far as size on the deck plans goes. You're paying for the 3 tons of stateroom then included as part of that space is another ton that can be used for hallways and the like. Common Area is additional space beyond this.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I see the change as slight.

The old rule was: "You need a recommended 4 dT ≈ 56 m³ per person aboard (absolute minimum 2 dT ≈ 28 m³) for all human needs for extended accommodation".

The new rule is: "You need a recommended 5 dT ≈ 70 m³ per person aboard (absolute minimum 2 dT ≈ 28 m³) for all human needs for extended accommodation".

The 4 dT "stateroom" has always been the space needed for all human needs, not just a bedroom. It would perhaps have been better if it was called "Accommodation" instead of "Staterooms".


Note that Basic Passage, Brigs, and Stables allows us to pack in more people per dT, without over-taxing the life-support.

 

[Condottiere]

It's really only matters if you start mapping out your starship.

 

[Jak Nazryth]

I'm an Architect. I always map out my deck plans. And elevations, and cross sections. I even do section studies of the mulit-locks to make sure there's enough headroom when the ramp is fully extended. If I was younger and grew up with 3D modelling, every ship I designed would be completely modeled as well. (Still slowly learning how to use Revit)

The change is huge. Especially for small tramp freighters and other ships under 1000 tons, which is what I focus on, ships that players have a higher chance of adventuring on and/or owning. And AnotherDlebert... your statement (The 4 dT "stateroom" has always been the space needed for all human needs, not just a bedroom) is correct and has ALWAYS been the case. Because each stateroom you purchase assigns one of it's 4 tons as communal space like lounges, galleys, public freshers, laundry facilities, etc... that helps to make room for cargo, or a sick bay, and other important elements vital to the operation and profitability of the ship. That's how it's always been. Now that you are required to not only pay for communal space again, you have to remove that tonnage from the ships hull.... again.

But I ask the question again. Every single state room is drawn in every single ship is a 3 ton room. On the write up it lists 4 tons. Where is the missing space?
Because it is not in the communal areas. That has been purchased and assigned a value on a new column. A new rule for the very fist time. This will result in freighters with fewer state rooms or smaller cargo bays.

It's not that I don't believe you AnotherDilbert, but could you include the book and page number for the rules you quote so I can read them as well? I look at Building Codes every day. So I want to see it for myself.
Because on page 21, High Guard, it doesn't state that at all. It's a declarative rule. "Each State Room consumes 4 tons and cost .5 MCr"

And I will repeat my last point again, because it's important. If you are now going to separate out communal space, corridor space, vertical circulation like lifts, stairs, ladders, as a separate line item that you have to pay for separately and assign ship tonnage, you need to reduces the size of the stateroom. Because they no longer are required to "share" 1 of their 4 tons with the rest of the ship.
That, or they become a full 4 ton (8 squares) room.
Don't get me wrong, that extra 4.5 square meters of floor space can be put to good use in a stateroom now that it is no longer shared.
But that would mean every single Star Ship ever drawn by Mongoose has to be redesigned.

 

[Jak Nazryth]

There are some good things that HG2 has done, but this is not one of them. IMHO this is one huge screw up.

It really didn't change. Staterooms are still usually 3 tons as they where in the earlier edition as far as size on the deck plans goes. You're paying for the 3 tons of stateroom then included as part of that space is another ton that can be used for hallways and the like. Common Area is additional space beyond this.

Andrew I missed your reply when I woke up this morning. I didn't get to bed until around 2 am my time and only glanced at the longer comments. If there is anyone I have come to respect over the last 20+ years it's you, if at the very least for your artwork and designs.

So now we pay for that 3 meters of carpet! lol.... great.

I'm not apposed to change, it just shocked the crap out of me around mid-night last night when my 400 ton "new police cutter" wasn't jiving with the example in the book. So... this means fewer state rooms or less cargo. That's it. The 20% absolute minimum set aside for cargo space (my personal rule of thumb) will now have to compete for every last stateroom. State rooms will have to be sacrificed for common space.

But you changed my scout courier! The first ship I ever owned with my first character way back in 1980/81! That little ship has always been nostalgic for me. No common space? No place to have coffee... I mean syntha-coffee? No place to play cards? That crappy little common space was small already, but now nothing? Best of luck to future Scouts.

 

[AndrewW]

Andrew I missed your reply when I woke up this morning. I didn't get to bed until around 2 am my time and only glanced at the longer comments. If there is anyone I have come to respect over the last 20+ years it's you, if at the very least for your artwork and designs.

Ah, normal enough time for me to be heading to bed... Thanks.

So now we pay for that 3 meters of carpet! lol.... great.

I'm not apposed to change, it just shocked the crap out of me around mid-night last night when my 400 ton "new police cutter" wasn't jiving with the example in the book. So... this means fewer state rooms or less cargo. That's it. The 20% absolute minimum set aside for cargo space (my personal rule of thumb) will now have to compete for every last stateroom. State rooms will have to be sacrificed for common space.

But you changed my scout courier! The first ship I ever owned with my first character way back in 1980/81! That little ship has always been nostalgic for me. No common space? No place to have coffee... I mean syntha-coffee? No place to play cards? That crappy little common space was small already, but now nothing? Best of luck to future Scouts.

I don't see it as any real change, the Common Area is like the old Luxuries item (cost/space wise). You still have the same left over from the staterooms, just isn't specifically spelled out.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I'm an Architect.

I would love to see your deck-plans.

It's not that I don't believe you AnotherDilbert, but could you include the book and page number for the rules you quote so I can read them as well?

High Guard, Install Staterooms, p21:
Common Areas and Living Space
It is common practice to assign an additional amount of tonnage, perhaps equal to a quarter of that used for staterooms, as common areas or general living space.

High Guard, Creating Deck Plans, p81:
• Common areas will vary, depending on the ship and its role, but a ratio of perhaps one square for every two staterooms is a good start.
• Not all the tonnage allocated to a stateroom necessarily goes to the stateroom itself; some can be used for corridors and similar spaces.
• Staterooms contain freshers but you may want to locate some additional ones in different areas of the ship, included as part of common areas.

Common Areas are not all common areas, it's just extra common areas...

To me that sounds very similar to:

LBB2'81, Deck Plans, p21:
When allocating space within the ship for deck plans, assume that only a portion of stateroom tonnage must actually be in staterooms; the remainder should be used for common areas and other accomodations for the crew.

You have always been able to allocate extra space to living quarters, the regular 4 dT is just a minimum, e.g. the CT Safari Ship, or larger cabins, e.g. CT Yacht.

Note that the classical CT deck-plans generally had much larger living space on the deck-plans than the allocated stateroom space. E.g. the S7 Scout has more than twice the space against the specified 16 dT.

 

[Jak Nazryth]

I print them out on 24x36 sheets of paper, full scale ( for miniature use... 1" grid = 5' / 1.5 meters) for the ships my PC's use. (Sorry, not sure what the English/Rest of the World scale is for typical Architectural Drawings...24" x 36", or Architectural/ANSI Scale "D".

Is there ship board combat??? If I print them out, you bet you're ass there will be ship board combat!

I'll try to load something later, but it won't be correct.. not per the new rules...

 

[Condottiere]

It would be easier if accommodations and life support could be split into it's components, and applied discretely.

 

[Jak Nazryth]

Well crud...
I drove home for lunch (I live 5 minutes from the office) but all my drawings are in pdf format. Couldn't upload anything.
I'll have to convert them to jpg later...

 

[steve98052]

I'm an Architect. I always map out my deck plans. And elevations, and cross sections. I even do section studies of the mulit-locks to make sure there's enough headroom when the ramp is fully extended. If I was younger and grew up with 3D modelling, every ship I designed would be completely modeled as well. (Still slowly learning how to use Revit)

Just out of curiosity, is Revit something that ordinary humans can reasonably figure out, and not just 3D design professionals? I read about it and wondered whether it might be more accessible than Blender (which is free and powerful, but has a very eccentric user interface). Also, is there a low cost light version, or better, a free down level version?

 

[Jak Nazryth]

Revit is an Autodesk product, same company that produces autocadd. Technically, it is no meant SPECIFICALLY for rendering, although it can render life like buildings, vehicles, and even terrain rather well. Revit is a fully integrated 3D construction software. As you "build" wall types, for instance, as you create a structure, it will automatically calculate how many metal studs are inside the wall. How many square feet (meters) of drywall, sheathing, brick, stucco, or what ever your constitutions technique is... The biggest advantage is that when you cut a wall section or an enlarged details, you simply place the "cut tag" where you want, and Revit automatically creates the detail for you, including notes and dimensions. Also, it fully integrates structural drawings and MEP drawings (Mechanical Electrical and Plumbing) into the same model, so that you can in advance tell if you'll have any conflicts... the software automatically highlights possible problem areas (Like if you have a W16x32 steel beam, with a duct having to move 120 CFM in a 9' ceiling space... the software will tell you the duct will not fit under the beam unless you lower the ceiling another 6" or so. I've been on large projects where we had to make changes in the field because of this very reason.

So Revit isn't just for fun. It is quickly becoming the work horse of Architectural and Engineering firms alike. In fact, this is from recent experience, most every new Architectural firm opening up, only uses Revit, while many older and establish firms are quickly switching to revit. My guess is within 5-10 years, every design firm will be fully coordinated with "real" 3D drawings. There are rumors that Revit can also be used in a factory setting, where automated assembly lines can shape, cut, and assemble unitized housing elements just by downloading the computerized models, but that is still probably a decade away.

That's why it so expensive. That's why it's not "just for fun" rendering. But since my industry is moving that direction, I am learning it. So not only can I create homes and commercial properties, I'll also be able to build and render Traveller ships when I'm proficient.

 

[steve98052]

Thanks for the description. The point you mention about lowering the ceiling gave an idea for a feature that might show up here and there in science fiction constructions: holographic warning signs, such as a "low ceiling" caution, or even an "exit" sign that would be a head-bumping hazard if it were solid, but hangs in a corridor where it needs to be visible without actually obstructing access.

Those warnings would be particularly useful in two-floor modular cutter modules, because the channel in the ceiling of the module that accommodates the spine of the ship introduces a stretch of low ceiling through the length of the module's upper deck.

 

[DivineWrath]

There are some good things that HG2 has done, but this is not one of them. IMHO this is one huge screw up.

It really didn't change. Staterooms are still usually 3 tons as they where in the earlier edition as far as size on the deck plans goes. You're paying for the 3 tons of stateroom then included as part of that space is another ton that can be used for hallways and the like. Common Area is additional space beyond this.

This might explain why I had trouble figuring out layouts for some ships. The staterooms didn't seem big enough. I thought there might be something wrong with my math. Then there were often times hallways that seemed to simply exist without there being common areas mentioned on the stats sheet.

I would much prefer it that if staterooms consume 4 tons, that it actually consume 4 tons. It creates confusion if it says one thing but then does another. I've been designing my ships where staterooms actually used up all 4 tons.

What about high and luxury staterooms (6 and 10 tons respectively)? Do they use up all of their tonnage, or is some of it's space set aside for common areas.

 

[AndrewW]

What about high and luxury staterooms (6 and 10 tons respectively)? Do they use up all of their tonnage, or is some of it's space set aside for common areas.

The original bit that didn't make it into the deck plans chapter:

Common areas will vary, though a ratio of around 1 square per two staterooms can be used.

Not all the tonnage allocated to a stateroom goes to the stateroom, some is used for corridor space and common areas.

Generally this would be:

Type Squares used Other area squares
Barracks 3 1
High Staterooms 10 2
Luxury Staterooms 16 4
Staterooms 6 2

 

[Condottiere]

It would all be resolved if we knew how life support actually works, than everything can be corridors and the crew can use hammocks.