Missiles in 2300

I wonder what the new builds would be once lessons had been learned from the Kafer War? Even if no new technologies were immediately forthcoming there would be a lot of effort put into optimising the new military warships in light of lessons leaned the hard way.

What technology did the Kafer have that would benefit human warships and vise versa? Could the Kafer/Ylii advance Kafer warship design and technology after studying human ships?

How about organic brain controls bought from the pentapod to give missiles and drone autonomy...
 
A small robot brain in every missile would improve the missile kill chance for a fraction of the missile cost.
Here’s a couple of reason that fit the setting. The shutter warp causes delays and confusion in computer systems which is not significant enough for systems under direct human control or when not in combat situations but is significant enough to cause problems in combat and to that the fact that while not the cause of WW III AI did contribute so the human military keeps a human element for direction and control. There drones make sense and it doesn’t break the lore of the game.
 
Kennedy was the only one I could remember. I know it was an American ship, and I don't remember any of the other nations ships names. :)

Without any sort of significant boost from a launcher, missile launchers can launch and engage targets at any angle. Projectile or energy weapons would be limited to their field of fire. This is where you'd have to think (or a naval architect would) about where you are mounting your weapons, as ships would not be able to maneuver to bring other weapons to bear. It sounds good on paper or for a game, but in reality if you were under thrust you'd introduce all kinds of problems, not to mention causing your navigator grief by constantly changing headings and vectors. Great if you are avoiding fire, but still problematic in other ways.

For 2300AD ships that have the rotating sections to generate G, you couldn't really mount weapons on the hamster cage or anywhere near the path of rotation without blocking your field of fire - unless you locked down the rotation during combat. Then you would just have your normal occluded fields of fire.
While I agree I think this is the reason most smaller military ship do not have grav decks, like most ships the goal is to get the majority of your weapon systems to bare while preventing your opponent from doing the same. It’s also one of the many reason why remote weapon systems are are the primary weapon.
 
There weren't, but you may be thinking of missiles with submunitions, or the odd missile armed fighters in SotFA, which can't actually control their missiles. Based on the art, submunition "bombs" are a better fit.

The Kennedy was a fusion frigate type with a couple of sensor drones and 20 missiles with semi-active control. The design philosophy was to use the drone as a spotter (37 million each), and vector long range missile strikes (8.4 million each in the design sequence, but discounted) onto a target probably using the drones active sensor as illuminator. The idea was the Kennedy should never receive return fire, hence the lack of investment in guns and defences.

It actually makes better sensor to place a small crew on the sensor drone and call it a spotter. It gives a lot more independence of action to the spotter.

Given the rules for defensive fire as written in Star Cruiser, each turret can have two bites of the cherry when defending - each can fire during the movement and fire phase, and then each can fire again during the detonation phase (assuming a same hex detonation). This means a ship of a reasonable size can slaughter missile strikes. Further, fleet tactics will have the main line stacked up in a single hex with coordinated defensive fire.

As the scale of combat goes down, missiles become a more dominant factor. They dominate in skirmishes of light forces, but are near useless at long range in large actions. See here.

The truly (cost) effective weapon system is a well armoured submuntions armed heavy fighter. Groups of fighters stand much more chance of surviving




The nature of the target matters. Terrestrial missiles and planes are traversing a different medium than the ships, and so are much faster but also more vulnerable if hit. In 2300AD space combat all vessels, including missiles, have basically the same characterisics. The weapons used to engage ships and missiles are the same.

Herein, the physics of lasers matters. Range is directly proportional to the diameter of the focal array (or individual element a multi-array). SC lasers are 6 m in diameter, and so the high-X laser can focus to 600,000 km. A smaller laser has less range. Range = engagement time. Further, although the physics say the effective range of a det-laser is only a few 100 km at best, the SC rules as written (and Mongoose rules) treat det-laser as focused lasers and allow them to attack by stand-off detonations. Any defensive weapon that doesn't outrange the detonation distance is useless.



The general question for navies in the gun period was always the maximum number of effective guns. In the 19th century, gun size increased with increasing armour, initially thicker wood (making 12 pdrs etc. ineffective resulting in 32 pdrs being standard), and then metal armour, resulting in smaller numbers of larger guns. The aim is to have your guns be effective against the enemy armour, and to maximise their number by not having them too large. Before predicted aim this equilibrium was found around the 12 inch gun. The later plunges into 13.5", 15" then 16" weapons was driven by increasing ranges at which hits could be achieved, and the need for those hits to be effective.

The fly-in-the-ointment was the development of an asymmetic weapon, the propelled torpedo. This meant a much smaller vessel could hit a battleship with a very powerful weapon (and remember, ca. 1880 battleships actually carried a couple of torpedo boats). The counter was a large number of effective guns against these smaller vessels. Then the small vessels started to get larger and more capable, necessitating larger guns to counter them etc. As these became too large for enough of them to be mounted on battleships, additional small ships were needed to ship them creating the destroyer.

The question here is whether smaller guns would be useful in 2k3. The x1 laser is the standard weapon, and is very multipurpose - it has good range, can penetrate most ships and can shoot down missiles. However, in the 2280's new armour materials have been developed which make ships which can't be penetrated by x1 lasers (armour-10, like the Martel or typo corrected Richelieu) viable. It may be that ships start carrying x2's or even x3 PBWS's to penetrate each others hull, and in that case a split to have a secondary battery would make sense. It just hasn't happened yet. Kafer ships have these same armour levels, and so the trend in naval architecture probably will soon generate a primary/secondary battery split...
I never played the star cruiser portion of 2300AD, so my knowledge of it is vague at best.

For any sort of combat missiles excel when swarming and overwhelm the enemies defenses unless you are counting on your missiles penetration accuracy to get past their defenses. Offensive changes have always followed defensive changes and technology. Along with bigger guns and more armor came different armor technologies, metallurgies and changes to ships structure to both support the armor and to channel the energy away from the impact without the armor plates buckling. So to did the experiments on how to armor and where to armor (all or nothing, how far to armor below the waterline, deck plating and torpedo bulges, things like that).

Conways Ships series is an excellent overview of the big gun era - check out Eclipse of the Big Gun if you like that sort of thing - it's a very informative and interesting read! It does talk about the changes to weapons designs with the launch of the HMS Dreadnought and the elimination of so many secondary and tertiary gun sizes on battleships that weren't really effective anyways.

For the laser question, I think it may get down to how they handled the main gun/secondary gun issue in modern battleships - secondary armaments still existed (the German Bismark carried a heavy secondary armament to fight off smaller craft, but I think the Kriegsmarine designers felt that fending off destroyers was more important than aircraft. Since their primary planned opponent was the Royal Navy rather than the Royal Air Force, their option made since. Plus the German navy was smaller than the Royal navy and fleet actions by them were rare post WW1.

I don't recall the escorts used for 2300, or if the designers envisioned task groups/forces built around escorts protecting their larger brethren. Modern warfare, or at least modern naval tactics, seems to lend itself more towards 2300 style than older WW2 style.

BTW... very enjoyable chat! :)
 
ha! The latest MGT kickstarter for AI consciousness and all that stuff... wasn't there a movie called Darkstar or something where the crew was trying to convince a warhead with AI to detonate itself? It was a bit of a dark comedy, but I could see having truly intelligent weapons deciding that death is not a good thing for them... :)
the opposite, they were desperately trying to get it to NOT detonate as it was stuck on the launch rails...
 
Here’s a couple of reason that fit the setting.
Do you have a quote or are they your house rules?
The shutter warp causes delays and confusion in computer systems which is not significant enough for systems under direct human control or when not in combat situations
this is implausible
but is significant enough to cause problems in combat and to that the fact that while not the cause of WW III AI did contribute so the human military keeps a human element for direction and control.
Odd they don't mind AI, robots, computers in every other military application.
There drones make sense and it doesn’t break the lore of the game.
No, they do not make sense to me. In a setting that has TL11 and 12 computer systems, computers that can become sentient, robot brains, cybernetics and neural interface I fail to see why their military electronics is worse than what we have current day.
 
Last edited:
There are no "fleet escorts" because there is no assymetric threat to defend against. 2300AD "escorts" are there to protect convoys against attack. The fleet ships typically do not travel with them. Missiles and fighters effectively act as the screen of a fleet.

Currently, naval vessels have three different media to contend with - subsurface, surface and air. Each of these needs different sensors, different weapons, and there are specialised vessels to attack and defend in each of these media. Task forces need all of them working as a team.

In 2300AD space combat there is a single media - space. For weapons we only have three:

1. X-ray lasers. Long ranged (2 light-seconds) and accurate, capable of engaging all targets. The lighter ones are starting to struggle against very heavy armour, which may long term lead to heavier lasers whose major drawback is simply increased mass (mostly from increased power plant size).
2. Particle beams. No range difference in the rules, but the physics say they should have shorter ranges. Hard hitting and capable of penetrating armour, but inaccurate with a large to hit penalty.
3. Nuclear bomb pumped "lasers." No range difference in the rules, but the physics say these should have much shorter ranges. Very, very hard hitting but are expended in the attack. A small ship hit with a nuke is likely out-of-action.

These can all be mounted on ships, fighters or missiles, if large enough (nukes being launched from ships and fighters on chemical rockets to clear the launchers blast radius before detonating). The Ritage-1 mounts a particle beam (explicitly stated in the canon writeup) and has some sensors, whereas the Ritage-2 has a big nuke but no sensors. The small sensors are best explained as a form of semi-active homing, wherein the mothership is illuminating the target, and the missile can generate a target solution based off that data. The Ritage-1 is basically used as a skirmisher for fleet units, whereas the Ritage-2 is there to strike at medium to close ranges, probably as the "first volley" going into a gun action.

The real problem is that a fully-independent missile needs to have all the stuff a fighter does on the hull, such as sensor arrays. For the same cost you can have a much more capable manned fighter. Indeed, manned fighters are incredibly effective, as long as they are designed well.

Let me note - IRL passive sensors give no range data. To range a target requires an active sensor (i.e. a radar or laser rangefinder). For solving a target solution, range data is so crucial that attacking with only passive data is likely impossible. For a laser the attacker is firing several seconds ahead of the target (i.e. 10,000's of km). With a missile the lag can be huge.

The reason why any shooting is possible is the "pseudo-momentum" and "pseudo-inertia" generated by the gyroscopic effect of the stutterwarp. Warping ships resist turning, and resist changes in stutterwarp rate. If you can project a course and lead the target, then the enemy will likely be roughly there. For the same reason missiles should struggle to adjust their courses.
 
The BC-7 is a civilian robot cargo carrier, not a state of the art military missile. I don't think the GDW writers quite realised just how capable computer/robot controlled weapon system accuracy would become, or the degree of autonomy AI F16s would display.

The idea that a human gunner is more accurate than a computer controlled weapon system is dubious to say the least these days.

I guess I just don't like the concept that a sci fi setting in the 24th century with fusion power plants, stutterwarp, and x-ray lasers has 20th century electronics and computer capability. At the time I accepted it, because I knew no better, today, nearly forty years on, I do.
 
Last edited:
The player still makes the decisions...
the sensors sense, the computer interprets for the meat bag
the sensors and computer establish targeting solution
the "gunner" presses the big red button to fire and the machines do the rest, the player still rolls the dice.
 
The BC-7 is a civilian robot cargo carrier, not a state of the art military missile. I don't think the GDW writers quite realised just how capable computer/robot controlled weapon system accuracy would become, or the degree of autonomy AI F16s would display.

The idea that a human gunner is more accurate than a computer controlled weapon system is dubious to say the least these days.

I guess I just don't like the concept that a sci fi setting in the 24th century with fusion power plants, stutterwarp, and x-ray lasers has 20th century electronics and computer capability. At the time I accepted it, because I knew no better, today, nearly forty years on, I do.

The "Waterdog"type Sentinel station is a modern Kafer (read Ylii electronics, which are better than Human) weapon, and has the -3 penalty. Remember the Kafers use robot weapons much more freely than Terrans. Sentinel missiles also exist, and where used by Terran forces. These are fully autonomous missiles.

As a note, one of the great debates 3 decades ago (!) was whether gravity sensors were "all seeing eyes" (c.f. the scenario "Lone Wolf") or had very little effect. In Invasion (and the scenario "Three Blind Mice") it is the latter - ships may traverse starships without detection as long as they don't get close to sensor platforms. The point of Sentinels was to watch a planet.

--- Extracts from Invasion ---

Sentinels are essentially little more than oversized shipboard missiles, but with exceptionally powerful sensor and communications arrays. Sown in planetary or solar orbits, Sentinels are deployed in a powered-down condition, with passive sensors activated but otherwise inert and virtually undetectable themselves. If a ship enters a Sentinel's sphere of operations and is detected by the sensors, the Sentinel's on-board computer checks to see if the target's IFF transponder is giving a readable code signal. If it is, the station sends a tight-beam transmission to a central
base of operations elsewhere in the system reporting the arrival. If a transponder code is not received, or is improperly transmitted, the Sentinel sends an urgent call for help and then switches over to full operation—powering up its on-board targeting computer and locking on to attack
the target immediately. Though no harder to kill than an ordinary missile, the Sentinel by itself is often enough to cripple, or even eliminate, a threat. But if not, the alert it sounds will summon defensive ships into the area.

---
SENTINEL STATIONS

The Kafer version of the Sentinel station, designated "Watchdog" in Terran military circles [the ASF have a similar system also called Watchdog], is an immobile, self-activating detonation laser featuring impressive passive sensors, on-board targeting computers, and extensive tight-beam communications arrays.

It is placed in orbit around bodies that cannot be patrolled regularly by Kafer warships, where it is virtually undetectable against the background
of the body it orbits. The station automatically senses any stutterwarp drives within its sensor range and checks the vessel's communication
broadcast bands for a proper recognition code. If no code (or an incorrect one) is given and the passing vessel enters an orbit of the same body as the Watchdog (such as to discharge its stutterwarp into the gravity well), the station beams a message back to preset coordinates, targets
the vessel, and detonates.

Combat Performance Data:
Movement: 0
Radiated Signature: 0/1*
Radial Reflected Signature: 7
Lateral Reflected Signature: 7
Radial Target Profile: -4
Lateral Target Profile: -3
Hull Hits: 1/1/1
Power Plant Hits: 2/1
Armament: One 7x2 detonation laser
Active Sensors: 0
Passive Sensors: 12
Targeting Computer: -3 (to simulate the lack of a trained operator)
*First number is for powered-down status; second is for attack mode.

---
 
Let me note - IRL passive sensors give no range data. To range a target requires an active sensor (i.e. a radar or laser rangefinder). For solving a target solution, range data is so crucial that attacking with only passive data is likely impossible. For a laser the attacker is firing several seconds ahead of the target (i.e. 10,000's of km). With a missile the lag can be huge.
Ummm, no. IRL, you can totally get range without active sensors. What do you think passive sonar is? What do you think radio triangulation is? Both of those give you range data without any active sensors. Your eyeballs allow you to determine range, you just have to have a minimum of two of them.

Did you never do a Navigation class with a map and a compass? You determine how far away things are using only your eyes, a map, and a compass. Tell Me which of those are an "active sensor". Just as an FYI, when you determine how far away something is, that is called it's "range".
 
The "Waterdog"type Sentinel station is a modern Kafer (read Ylii electronics, which are better than Human) weapon, and has the -3 penalty. Remember the Kafers use robot weapons much more freely than Terrans. Sentinel missiles also exist, and where used by Terran forces. These are fully autonomous missiles.
I do not agree with GDW that computer controlled weapons should be at -3, especially when we now have (Mongoose Traveller) rules for expert software and robot brains, not to mention in the real world computer control is needed to hit anything at range.
As a note, one of the great debates 3 decades ago (!) was whether gravity sensors were "all seeing eyes" (c.f. the scenario "Lone Wolf") or had very little effect. In Invasion (and the scenario "Three Blind Mice") it is the latter - ships may traverse starships without detection as long as they don't get close to sensor platforms. The point of Sentinels was to watch a planet.
I love the way they just invent a gravity sensor without a clue as to how it works. More magitech.
 
Ummm, no. IRL, you can totally get range without active sensors. What do you think passive sonar is? What do you think radio triangulation is? Both of those give you range data without any active sensors. Your eyeballs allow you to determine range, you just have to have a minimum of two of them.

Did you never do a Navigation class with a map and a compass? You determine how far away things are using only your eyes, a map, and a compass. Tell Me which of those are an "active sensor". Just as an FYI, when you determine how far away something is, that is called it's "range".

Rapid rangefinding with triangulation with optical rangefinders is entirely based on the base line vs the range. Beyond a certain point, the measured angles dissolve into noise, and no reading is possible.* Hence, if I ask you, a human with a ca. 10 cm base line to estimate range, at 10 m you'd likely have reasonable accuracy, but at 1 km you'd likely be > 100 m out, and at 10 km (from a tower) the range would be impossible to estimate - there is no detectable difference in the signals in the two eyes.

Optical rangefinders work by increasing the base line length. With, say, a 10 m base line, reasonable accuracy is possible at 10 km. This is a good rule of thumb, you need a base line of 1/1,000th of the distance for an estimate within 1% of the range.

One SC hex is 600,000 km. This would suggest a base line of 600 km for an uncertainty of +/- 6,000 km. Obviously impossible on a ship, and nit that useful for a gunnery solution.

The arguments usually head into multiple ships, but then we have a whole bunch of additional variables requiring resolution, mostly being the absolute positions of the two ships etc. However, all this is totally impracticle in combat.

Meanwhile, a radar return can likely immediately give you range, at least the range a number of seconds ago (about 3x the range in ls, due to the pulse frequency having to be kept very low).**

If a target is 10 ls away (5 SC hexes), passive scanners will give you polar coordinates to where it was about 10 seconds ago but no ranging data, and the active will give you the range of where it was about 30 seconds ago, and the polar coordinates for the same. The computer must extrapolate a course and a point of aim.

* A subtended angle of about 50 microradians is reasonable.

** Due to the distances, if the pulse frequency is too high the different pulses blend into each other, and you cannot be sure a received pulse is a reflection of the last transmitted one.
 
The active sensor receiver is a passive receiver...

you could put the active radar EM transmitter onto a missile or drone, and the active radar receiver on the ship, works in passive mode only on the ship.

A drone or missile could paint a target with a targeting laser and the ship then uses passives...
 
Rapid rangefinding with triangulation with optical rangefinders is entirely based on the base line vs the range. Beyond a certain point, the measured angles dissolve into noise, and no reading is possible.* Hence, if I ask you, a human with a ca. 10 cm base line to estimate range, at 10 m you'd likely have reasonable accuracy, but at 1 km you'd likely be > 100 m out, and at 10 km (from a tower) the range would be impossible to estimate - there is no detectable difference in the signals in the two eyes.

Optical rangefinders work by increasing the base line length. With, say, a 10 m base line, reasonable accuracy is possible at 10 km. This is a good rule of thumb, you need a base line of 1/1,000th of the distance for an estimate within 1% of the range.

One SC hex is 600,000 km. This would suggest a base line of 600 km for an uncertainty of +/- 6,000 km. Obviously impossible on a ship, and nit that useful for a gunnery solution.
Wouldn't this be the reason that probe drones would exist? To give multiple datapoints and baseline that could be hundreds of kilometers. So, say 1,000km apart (laser communications to stay coordinated, not give away their positions, and constantly knowing the exact range between your ship and your probe drones), that would give you accuracy at (by your math) about 1,000,000km. The computing power to calculate range from that data is available today, so in 2300 it should be even easier.
The arguments usually head into multiple ships, but then we have a whole bunch of additional variables requiring resolution, mostly being the absolute positions of the two ships etc. However, all this is totally impracticle in combat.

Meanwhile, a radar return can likely immediately give you range, at least the range a number of seconds ago (about 3x the range in ls, due to the pulse frequency having to be kept very low).**

If a target is 10 ls away (5 SC hexes), passive scanners will give you polar coordinates to where it was about 10 seconds ago but no ranging data, and the active will give you the range of where it was about 30 seconds ago, and the polar coordinates for the same. The computer must extrapolate a course and a point of aim.
Active sensors or passive sensors, the computer must still extrapolate a course and a point of aim, but by your own argument, passive sensors receive data 3 times faster than active sensors, so the data from the passive sensors is more up-to-date and therefore more accurate. Might need to rethink that. Passive sensors should be accurate, but making them more accurate than active sensors seems kind of off.
 
Do you have a quote or are they your house rules?
It was a suggestion to fix YOUR ISSUE
this is implausible
According to what?
Odd they don't mind AI, robots, computers in every other military application.
These AI are under human supervision
No, they do not make sense to me. In a setting that has TL11 and 12 computer systems, computers that can become sentient, robot brains, cybernetics and neural interface I fail to see why their military electronics is worse than what we have current day.
Where do you get the rule that they are Sentient your adding your house rule now and in no way do we have Sentient computers give me an actual example?
 
The BC-7 is a civilian robot cargo carrier, not a state of the art military missile. I don't think the GDW writers quite realised just how capable computer/robot controlled weapon system accuracy would become, or the degree of autonomy AI F16s would display.

The idea that a human gunner is more accurate than a computer controlled weapon system is dubious to say the least these days.

I guess I just don't like the concept that a sci fi setting in the 24th century with fusion power plants, stutterwarp, and x-ray lasers has 20th century electronics and computer capability. At the time I accepted it, because I knew no better, today, nearly forty years on, I do.
Then if you don’t like 2300 anymore quit playing. This is a game nothing more nothing else even those who claim it’s hard sci-fi are wrong.
 
The active sensor receiver is a passive receiver...

you could put the active radar EM transmitter onto a missile or drone, and the active radar receiver on the ship, works in passive mode only on the ship.

A drone or missile could paint a target with a targeting laser and the ship then uses passives...
Create your own game and setting all I’ve every seen you do complain about the games
 
Back
Top