Minbari Protectorate Fleet (1.0 download now added)

[locarno24]

I've been having a think on and off about a minbari protectorate fleet list - I got hold of a copy of the AOG ship sheets for some inspiration

[passes Silvereye a plate of cookies]

But am determined to ignore them or modify them where relevant.
I'm hoping to have a bit of a discussion about what to put in, and I'm hoping (ultimately) to try writing a signs and portents list (yeah, I know, unlikely - but I can always post up a pdf of the list if not)



Anyway - I've had a look around as best I can, and my best understanding is that the Protectorate is just that - a protectorate in the classic sense - where several minor races (I think I recall reading that were involved in the previous shadow war) have basically put themselves under the (impressive) protection of the Minbari Federation.

Unsurprisingly, this has meant that there has never been any serious threat to these territories by other major powers - none of the worlds of the protectorate are worth fighting the minbari warrior caste for (few things are!).

The only real threat comes from raider groups, for whom the possibility of stolen minbari equipment is a payoff worth the risk.

Normally the protectorate militias (who are equipped with limited amounts of older minbari hardware and a few indigenously-built warships) are able to see them off easily (if sight of what appears to be a minbari ship doesn't scare them off first!) but sometimes an intelligent raider leader will be unimpressed by appearances and the raiders will come in sufficient strength to almost qualify as an invasion.....especially if the Minbari fleet is know to be busy elsewhere (as it was during the Earth-Minbari war, for instance).




The thoughts I've had:

1) this is a 'second-line' fleet - apocalypse-priority ships are right out, and for that matter so are war-priority vessels. I was planning to add in a rule called 'treaty obligations' or similar, to let the protectorate field one or two points of proper minbari ships (or maybe ISA rangers too?). I'm also considering a CQ penalty as the protectorate militia is not supposed to be the best trained of fleets - at least one raider group ('the legion') really gave them the run-around....not least because initially they wouldn't admit to the minbari how badly they were getting owned and ask for support.

2) Most of the ships associated with the protectorate only carry flyers, not nials, and I wanted to continue this theme - Nials might be availible, but only in limited numbers, so should only feature in important engagements - they're too valuable to be used on patrol missions.

The ships listed that fit:

Patrol

Rogata combat tug:
Literally a construction tug refitted for light combat duties - a few popguns and a 'gravity net'. Supposedly unmanouvrable (lumbering?) - but a tug must have fairly good engines, so I'd suggest that when acting alone it should manage a decent turn of speed. The gravity net sounds suspiciously like a gravetic shifter - and the ability to field one at patrol level could be annoying (even if the ship can't do much else). If there's a CQ penalty to the fleet it wouldn't be that bad as few will win their opposed check.

Flyers:
Minbari flyers - you know the name, you know the number.

Skirmish

Shaveen patrol cutter:
The short-hand way to describe this is the 'white star mark -1'....an old patrol hull that the design was based off. Take a white star, strip off the sensors advanced enough to add scout, remove the vorlon adaptive armour, turn the improved neutron laser into a normal variety and weaken the pulsar battery, and you have a skirmish gunship....

Torotha combat frigate:
Definitely stated that the protectorate have these. Makes sense - it's the lightest minbari warship.

Raid:
Esharan Anti-fighter frigate:
It's an old (ISD) design that the minbari fleet no longer use in second edition. A flak escort was a bloody stupid idea for a fleet with Nial fighter screens, but I imagine that the protectorate would jump on them given a chance.

Letann combat scout:
A tinashi hull with a scout fit. This was apparently the predecessor to the leshath, used when the tinashi was the heaviest warship in the minbari fleet. These days they're mothballed in the regular fleet.

Tradana combat frigate:
A protectorate-specific design that they came up with to make up for their lack of a true capital ship when facing raider carriers. Essentially take a torotha, remove the troop space, remove the forward armament, de-power the engines and fit a shedload of neutron lasers on the prow. Think a minbari tech version of the olympus gunship and you're not far off.

Battle:

Nial:
This was a random idea that I'd like comments on. A Morshin fleet carrier seems definitely out - although a light carrier is a maybe further down the list. I wondered about having a shedload of nials beign a battle point - hence making them unavailible in patrol and a pain to access below a sizable raid game.....on the other hand the point would get you quite a lot of them (16 flights would be a direct scaling up, I think).



Something else:

For a 'new-ish' ship, I was thinking about a new indigenous ship; essentially a first attempt at a new hull from scratch rather than rebuilding surplus minbari hulls. Something of a gunship developed in response to the increasing number of battlewagons and salvaged capital ships popping up in raider fleets. Something clearly using minbari tech but not in the same way. Definitely no 'advanced' or 'improved' stuff. I had the idea of a couple of forward batteries of slow-loading neutron lasers - so allowing for firing the lot and living with the cycle time, or keeping up steady fire.

I thought of Shaitann as a possible name.




In eahc case I haven't tried to do statlines yet, I was after a bit of coherency with the ideas for the fleet first.
thoughts? comments? Insults?

 

[Silvereye]

[passes Silvereye a plate of cookies]

Woohoo! I got cookies.

 

[Delthos]

Instead of buying a crap load of Nials for a Battle point, that doesn't make them rare for the protectorate fleet. do like the Raiders. Charge a patrol point for up to say 4 flights of Nials to replace Flyers on board any other ship. This way you can't just buy them, the only way to get them is by buying them as replacements. This keeps their numbers down but allows them to be in the fleet.

Another option is to come up with a less effective version of the Nial and say it is an early design.

 

[Silvereye]

1) this is a 'second-line' fleet - apocalypse-priority ships are right out, and for that matter so are war-priority vessels. I was planning to add in a rule called 'treaty obligations' or similar, to let the protectorate field one or two points of proper minbari ships (or maybe ISA rangers too?). I'm also considering a CQ penalty as the protectorate militia is not supposed to be the best trained of fleets - at least one raider group ('the legion') really gave them the run-around....not least because initially they wouldn't admit to the minbari how badly they were getting owned and ask for support.

I'm not too sure of the CQ penalty, the Protectorate will no doubt have some professional crews. However, it is also likely to be muted most of the time behind Flight Computers. As to the Treaty Obligations, I'd stick that in like the PSI Corps rules (0-2), but only for Minbari vessels. The Rangers would no doubt support the Protectorate if asked, but they would no doubt go to the Federation first.

2) Most of the ships associated with the protectorate only carry flyers, not nials, and I wanted to continue this theme - Nials might be availible, but only in limited numbers, so should only feature in important engagements - they're too valuable to be used on patrol missions.

I'd stick with just having Flyers available. They really are 'not bad' fighters (unless you compare them to Nials).

The ships listed that fit:

Are you allowing the Protectorate access to Stealth? Fluff-wise, the Minbari never built them ships with access to this technology. If they do not have access to Stealth, then PLs may need to be jigged about.

Rogata combat tug:

A big hulk seems appropriate

Flyers:

If you drop the Stealth, then the numbers will have to change.

Shaveen patrol cutter

Interesting. I'd probably have played with this to make it a 2fer, just armed with a couple of AD of Fusion Cannons (reduced range, Fore mount, perhaps even adding Accurate - more like a cut down Blue Star then a cut down White Star).

Torotha combat frigate:

Does what it says on the tin, though tweaks for Stealth?

Esharan Anti-fighter frigate:

Probably a sound dumping ground for this vessel. Primarily it would be used against Raiders, which are known to be fighter heavy.

Letann combat scout:

I'd probably use the Delphi scout rules (Unlimited Range), add Stealth (via Scout trait not active jamming), maybe even make it a Battle level choice.

Tradana combat frigate:

I'm not sure you'd need to de-power the engines, but reduce the range of the Neutron lasers instead.

Nial:

I'd keep the Nials as an "available through Minbari Allies" option.

 

[Captain_Nemo]

Delthos wrote:

Another option is to come up with a less effective version of the Nial and say it is an early design.

I say just give them the old Tishat Fighters and be done with it.

 

[inq101]

A protectorate force would probably stick close to their homeworld or trade routes, so maybe less access to jump engines?

For fluff reasons I'd suggest giving them access to Delta V's (and V2's). There suppost to be fighters made commersially.

 

[locarno24]

Instead of buying a crap load of Nials for a Battle point, that doesn't make them rare for the protectorate fleet. do like the Raiders. Charge a patrol point for up to say 4 flights of Nials to replace Flyers on board any other ship. This way you can't just buy them, the only way to get them is by buying them as replacements. This keeps their numbers down but allows them to be in the fleet.

It makes them rare if not playing at battle priority; you have to spend two or more points soley on fighters....which most people wouldn't do. I didn't wan't them to be rare so much as not readily accessible in small games; if it's just a 'replace' type then you can expect to see a load of nials even in raid games.

Another option is to come up with a less effective version of the Nial and say it is an early design.

I say just give them the old Tishat Fighters and be done with it.

The problem is that the tishat is even more lethal in a dogfight....hmm..

I'd keep the Nials as an "available through Minbari Allies" option.

That might be the most sensible. I don't know...depends how they actually work on playtesting. There's nothing really to compare "a crap load for a Battle point" to (part of the reason I wanted to suggest it as it's a bit unique - the aim was to show how valuable the genuine front-line fighters are to the militia).

I'm not too sure of the CQ penalty, the Protectorate will no doubt have some professional crews. However, it is also likely to be muted most of the time behind Flight Computers.

Oh, swearwords. Brain glitch - I forgot about the other effect of flight computers. More to the point, even an irregular force seems able to get basic military-grade crews (see the raider fleet) with sufficient practice.

It's probably not worth adding a special rule that will only come into effect on rare occasions.

Are you allowing the Protectorate access to Stealth? Fluff-wise, the Minbari never built them ships with access to this technology. If they do not have access to Stealth, then PLs may need to be jigged about.

That I'm not sure about. Stripping stealth systems off minbari hulls opens up a whole can of worms - the flyer, for instance, includes the effects of its stealth capabilities in its dogfight stat (as do other minbari fighters).

Certainly a lot of the hulls wouldn't have stealth - the Rogata is modified to be 'combat-capable' but making a tug stealth-capable seems unlikely.

The shaveen definitely wouldn't - I know jammers were left off a white star deliberately (as they were naff all use against the shadows) - but it also makes sense as an 'older' hull and one that protectorate shipyards build themselves. Besides, having dodge and stealth on anything that's not a fighter seems harsh.

That's kind of how I was thinking of doing it - hulls built by or specifically for the protectorate (Rogata, Shaveen, Shaitann) don't get stealth systems.

Hulls which are reactivated or surplus modern minbari fleet do (Torotha, Flyer, Nial - if used)

Hulls which represent obsolete minbari designs get stealth, but it's naff by comparison to modern versions (Esharan, Letann - it'd be a bit bizarre if a minbari tech scout wasn't stealthy given that even the narns and early EA could manage it)

A modern minbari hull refitted by the protectorate would also have its stealth system but it is likely to be less efficient post refit (Tradana)




Rogata:

A big hulk seems appropriate

Not so sure - it's a tug, not a dredger. Tugs are almost invariably smaller than the ships they are used to tow. I was mentally seeing something torotha-sized (but unstealthed, so they'll burst like soap bubbles if heavy weapons get turned on them....that's what happens if you take up-gunned civilian ships into a fight)

Shaveen:

Interesting. I'd probably have played with this to make it a 2fer, just armed with a couple of AD of Fusion Cannons (reduced range, Fore mount, perhaps even adding Accurate - more like a cut down Blue Star then a cut down White Star).

Hmm.. I just like the idea, as mentioned in the description, of a proto-whitestar. Slower and less well armed, but similar in the layout of weapons.

A neutron laser - even unimproved - seems to be rather loaded for bear for a police craft, but the central gun ought to be a beam-type weapon, so I was thinking of a fusion cannon, whilst the wings pack pulsars as they do in a white star. As with the white star I was going to give them accurate, but less dice.

Torotha:
The more I look at this, the more I think I intend to keep it as it. It has quite a lot of forward guns, but less agility than a Shaveen. Dropping it to patrol would leave it a lot less capable.

Tradana Combat Frigate:
It wasn't really a case of depowering the engines so much as changing the weight balance in the hull. Range should definitely be short-ish; small and agile hulls (white star, olympus gunship, hyperion) invariable pack about a 18-20" range.

The refitting would probably compromise the stealth somewhat (so 4+ or even 3+), and the massive amount of metalwork at the front might rob it of agile. The tradana is meant to hunt bigger ships (a gunboat in the classic sense of a very big gun on a very small boat), so that wouldn't be a major concern.

Esharan:

Probably a sound dumping ground for this vessel. Primarily it would be used against Raiders, which are known to be fighter heavy.

More or less what I thought. Especially since (advanced anti-fighter or not)
the other older ships wont be that well supplied with flak. As an older minbari ship it gets lower stealth and reduced speed, which allows for it to stay raid despite having a tinashi hull like the letann. That leaves plenty of room in the priority bracket for a rather nasty flak battery and the escort trait.

Letann:

I'd probably use the Delphi scout rules (Unlimited Range), add Stealth (via Scout trait not active jamming), maybe even make it a Battle level choice.

Going from a leshath hull to a tinashi hull ups the hit points from 24/28 to 38/42 (or thereabouts) which is bloody tough for a scout. Even dropping its neutron lasers for scout gear, it's going to be imposing on the field.

Stealthwise I figure it should be a 5+ or 4+ - probably 5+ as it should be at least equivalent to the tinashi units it was designed to accompany (5+).

Leaving it at battle level might work rather nicely; it allows it to keep its rather tasty secondary armament and, being the highest priority vessel, act as a squadron-level flagship (it might not be a bad idea - being the only battle level scout - to give it a minor command bonus). As with nials, battle priority makes it a rare unit to field - it's a combat ELINT ship, not a 'scout' in the 'go out on patrol' sense of the word.

Any balancing of value can be done by adding an odd flyer wing if needed.



Shaitann:
If the Letann is battle, and the tradana might work at skirmish, the same as its 'parent' ship, then this might be worth dropping to raid - that gives a sort of logical progression of ships:

Patrol - flyer wings and armed tugs drafted in an emergency
Skirmish - Proper patrol cutters and frigatesvadding some punch to a patrol
Raid - Flak frigate designed to repel large scale fighter waves and the militia's primary fighting ship
Battle - command/elint ship seen in charge of sizable fighting fleets.
War and above - ok.....at this point, kids, we dial 0845-WARRIORCASTE....

A protectorate force would probably stick close to their homeworld or trade routes, so maybe less access to jump engines?

A fair point. I definitely can't see any reason for the Rogata to be jump capable, and if the minbari were rather chuffed with themselves that loaned vorlon technology allowed the white star to be jump-capable, then the Shaveen shouldn't be.

Shaitann I'm not sure. I still haven't quite decided what I want to do with the ship; I'm hedging towards a bit of a broadside-armed brawling ship as a counterpart to the forward arc Tradanas and Torothas it would follow up.
If I end up making the Shaitann have a flyer group on board I would but otherwise I might well not (there's not going to be a 'carrier' - fleet carriers are about projecting force which militia's don't do - but I thought either it or the Esharan - as the fighter defence ship - might have a couple of wings of flyers to allow you to carry fighters around sans jumpgate in an emergency)

For fluff reasons I'd suggest giving them access to Delta V's (and V2's). There suppost to be fighters made commersially.

The Delta V2 is a bit too similar to the flyer to take....I'm not sure about the Delta V. Unless I'm going to start adding league or raider hulls it just stand out a bit too much.


Actually, that was one other thought I had was (as an older ship): the Nolo'Tar. The problem is that it's a bit too similar to what I want the Esharan to do, so I'll probably bypass it.

 

[katadder]

could allow them veshetans at battle level. these are old hulls and would be the biggest available to them anyway (no neshetans just the degunned veshetan) or maybe something based off this hull anyway.

 

[Da Boss]

Just to say - it all seems very interesting which it is to read - thanks

 

[inq101]

I'm not sure about the Delta V. Unless I'm going to start adding league or raider hulls it just stand out a bit too much.

It's just an alternative to giving them Nials and giving them a dedicated dogfighter. They could still get access to the advanced Mimbari fighters via the allies ('treaty obligation') but would have their own squadrons of more primative craft to fly escort for convoyes, etc.

 

[David Anla Shok']

An interesting idea. I do like the Delta V idea as opposed to giving them front line Minbari fighters. Also, how about a random element, at least for a campaign venue... designate points for Minbari intervention and then dice for what shows up?.... the "aw shucks" factor, the Minbari fleet sends a ship or ships on a good will tour and they just happen to be nearby when someone decides to have a go at the Protectorate. Could be overwhelming or underwhelming. Still, an idea...
Regards,

 

[angelus2000]

If you wanted to go with a older hull and tech flavor for Protectorate fleets, giving them Antimatter weaponry would be appropriate for some of the ships in a basic form. IIRC the Vree scavenged the basics from the antimatter weapons tech from adrift Minbari ships, so some form of basic pulse and beam antimatter weaponry would be appropriate; even thousand year old Minbari hulls and weapons would still be on par with most of the other races current tech.

I rather like the idea of giving them access to Delta V's and other raider fighters, except probably in even larger numbers than Raiders can access (legitimate goverment pruchase over black maket and smuggling would make them cheaper, plus even a dinky planetary gov most likely has more resources available to purchase large qauntities of these fighters)

 

[Silvereye]

That's kind of the reason I dislike the idea of Delta fighters being available to the protectorate. They have their own civilian (militia) shipyards for producing tugs and police vessels (as well as frighters, liners and the like). So they can either use the plans to build their own Minbari Flyers, or import a shed load of inferior tech foreign fighters (No grav drives) and have to dedicate a lot of support and resources for them. Remember flyers dogfight at +1. Meaning they are capable of going up against most of the other fighters in the game on equal terms. That Nials and Tishats are exceptional fighters hides how good the Flyer actually is.

I like the idea of anti-matter weaponry though. Some venerable Tinashi variants that have been in service with the protectorate for many hundreds of years. And fits in well with the Totothas mode of operation.

For the Rogata, I was thinking of a larger vessel lots of superstructure taken up with power generation and powerful engines. Potentially it needs to manoeuvre a Sharlin sized vessel around. A slow and cumbersome vessel capable of towing a Tinashi sized vessel on it's own and only 2 or 3 needed to pull a Sharlin.

The Tradana might be a simple "upgrade" remove the for weaponry and replace with a 2AD Neutron laser at about 20" range. Reduce the troops to 1 and keep all the other stats/traits. This may bump the PL up to Raid. Making it kind of like a poor mans White Star.

The Shaitan. How about looking at it as either a reduced size Tigara or as a dedicated merchant convoy escort - slow speed, a flyer complement, and some reasonable all round firepower and a bit of heft to survive a strike by "raiders" while protecting civilian vessels?

 

[David Anla Shok']

I'm not sure I like the idea of a stripped down Minbari fleet. Being a protectorate gives a wide variance as to what form support is. The Minbari don't appear to be big on getting rid of anything "old", cities and ship designs that are centuries old are the earmark of Minbari culture. I am not sanguine about the concept of their bringing these neighbors up to speed technologically as simply guarenteeing their autonomy and safety. The fourth season episode where Delenn takes White Stars to stop Drakh raiders is an example.
Regards,

 

[crucible_orc]

in B5 wars, ther was teh Tishat Medium fighter. it was esentially a very old version of a Nial. same basic chassis with less armor and less advanced sensor suite.

you could say that the protectorate gets Tishat fighters instead of nials.

 

[David Anla Shok']

in B5 wars, ther was teh Tishat Medium fighter. it was esentially a very old version of a Nial. same basic chassis with less armor and less advanced sensor suite.

you could say that the protectorate gets Tishat fighters instead of nials.

In this version of B5 it is a dogfighter, not necessarily an older model. I don't get the feeling that the Minbari are big on passing out equipment, even old stuff.
Regards,

 

[inq101]

You could create an upgraded version of another fighter with old Minbari tech

 

[Silvereye]

I don't get the feeling that the Minbari are big on passing out equipment, even old stuff.

I kind of agree. However the protectorate was set up after the previous shadow war, so the Minbari were responsible for setting it up and providing security for them.

This no doubt involved giving them ships and fighters to use, and these ships could potentially still be in service 1,000 years later. Additionally, the background seems to say that there are no large military shipyards in Protectorate space, but they can, and do, produce things like Torothas. The Tradana was a Protectorate variant that was really useful, so the Minbari built a new shipyard in Protectorate space to produce that model.

So the Minbari must have been supplying them with additional ships at various points in their history, probably mainly through Worker Caste donations.

 

[locarno24]

Also, how about a random element, at least for a campaign venue... designate points for Minbari intervention and then dice for what shows up?.... the "aw shucks" factor, the Minbari fleet sends a ship or ships on a good will tour and they just happen to be nearby when someone decides to have a go at the Protectorate. Could be overwhelming or underwhelming. Still, an idea...

"Treaty Obligations" definitely ought to feature in a campaign list as well as a one off game - exactly how would require a bit of thinking as there's a biiiig difference between a 'duties' roll pulling in a support from a sunhawk and support from a Sharkaan advanced warcruiser......

For the Rogata, I was thinking of a larger vessel lots of superstructure taken up with power generation and powerful engines. Potentially it needs to manoeuvre a Sharlin sized vessel around. A slow and cumbersome vessel capable of towing a Tinashi sized vessel on it's own and only 2 or 3 needed to pull a Sharlin.

I kind of need to figure out a model for it - I had the old troglian mini in mind for the Shaitann (i.e. visibly minbari but bloody ugly!) and hadn't really had any thoughts for the rogata.

As I've said, tugboats are usually pretty small relative to what they're tugging - compare the size of a 2-3 man harbour tug to a supertanker or container ship. The things it's lifting around aren't normally fighting back.

The Shaitan. How about looking at it as either a reduced size Tigara or as a dedicated merchant convoy escort - slow speed, a flyer complement, and some reasonable all round firepower and a bit of heft to survive a strike by "raiders" while protecting civilian vessels?

That last kind of makes sense. All the other ships are largely gunships - designed with forward guns and agility. All well and good, but naff all use when protecting a flock of merchantmen from a half-dozen raider carriers.
I'm thinking pulsars batteried to port and starboard with a (minimal) amount for and aft, and a couple of flyer wings. That, combined with decent bulk (making up for stealth that only protects effectively from long range fire) and you have something moderately nasty. It's also something that the minbari don't have - not needing to bother about merchant shipping much - so it helps distinghuish the fleet.

The fourth season episode where Delenn takes White Stars to stop Drakh raiders is an example.

They're not stated as attacking protectorate territories though, are they?
Besides which, Delenn does that with her Anla Shok hat on, not as a representative of the Minbari Military (which she's not), or the traditional supporters of the protectorate, the worker caste (which she's not either).

To be honest, I'd see minbari hulls as more likely than other ships equipped with minbari hardware. Being trained up on some ships offered as a gift is a damn sight easier than designing them from scratch, and is a better way of maintaining the control and oversight. Minbari do use centuries-old designs, but bear in mind that the protectorate is close to a millenium old - as noted, there are designs that even the Minbari regard as antiquated.

could allow them veshetans at battle level. these are old hulls and would be the biggest available to them anyway (no neshetans just the degunned veshetan) or maybe something based off this hull anyway.

Hmm.....I'm just worried about power creep in the fleet...the Letann is battle priority due to its command potential - I'm not so sure about a pure battle-level fighting ship; it seems a bit potent for a force without access to major resources. It's certainly one to bear in mind, though.

Antimatter weapons....hmmm....well, minbari-style antimatter is the shord range but beefy antimatter converter on the tigara. Possibly an antimatter pulsar might replace the white star's more sophisticated molecular pulsars on the shaveen (hence a slight range drop), and a similar weapon might be the pulse weapons on the flanks of the Shaitann..

I think this has reached the point where I'm going to go away and attempt to write some stats and background......

 

[David Anla Shok']

"Treaty Obligations" definitely ought to feature in a campaign list as well as a one off game - exactly how would require a bit of thinking as there's a biiiig difference between a 'duties' roll pulling in a support from a sunhawk and support from a Sharkaan advanced warcruiser......

This is only a real issue in one off games or tourneys. In a campaign, at least a map campaign, there should be no balance issues. I'm still not all that comfortable with the idea of Minbari ships in non Minbari hands. Let's face it. They didn't even share much of their technology until the coming of the Alliance.
Regards,