Min movement and turning

[holden88]

I agree with most of your points Fitzwalrus. It is certainly not my intention to apply non-sensical or arbitrary rules to the game. I was merely bringing in some real world experience to the discussion.

As far as what's written in the VAS rulebook, how you inteperet the movement rules all depend on what your defeniftion of a ships "speed score" is. It could mean...

1) The ships original unmodified speed score.
2) The ships current speed score after being adjusted by damage.
3) The distance that a player decided to move the ship this turn.

The book isn't clear and each definition alters the gameplay.

For what its worth here's how we are going to play out the movement phase in our games.

1) Nominate a ship to move.
2) Decide if that ship is going to attempt to execute a special action this turn and roll for it (if required).
3) Decide how fast the ship will move this turn. The minimum speed is 1" and the maximum is the current (ie:adjusted by damage) speed score of the ship. This becomes the ships set speed for the turn.
4) Move the ship 1/2 of its set speed in a straight line.
5) Conduct any turns if desired.
6) Move the ship its remaining distance in a straight line.

This will allow undamaged ship to slow down and turn just as tightly as damaged ones. I believe this is the intention of the rules. I don't think it's the most realistic treatment possible, but it is simple, clean and consistant. After all, VAS is not trying to be a hyper-realistic naval simulation (there are plenty of other games out there for that).

 

[BuShips]

holden88, that seems very functional and I could play that way without complaint. Let's see what the Rulemasters say about how they want it to be played (such as during a tournament or at a convention) so that we can do it that way, but I do like what you've offered. In a perfect world with sufficient time I wish this could have been beaten to death with endless salvoes of playtesting, but Mongoose would never get a decent chance to publish anything, heh. At least even if these are not what was intended by Mongoose these suggestions might be considered in a reprint edition of VaS.

 

[BuShips]

I'll add here that we need to get some of the playtesters to toss in their comments on how they worked these issues out. I think Soulmage contributed, but maybe wasn't "in" as an official playtester. Is that correct?

 

[DM]

I have always played it based on "speed = distance moved in the turn", so if your ship is moving 6" you make the turn after 3", but if that ship is moving 4" it turns after 2". This fits my real world experience with warship manoeuvring better than what seems to be the current understanding (although its not perfect either )

 

[Der Kommandant]

holden88, how can you play it that way? its already been clarified that you need to move half of the ships move stat before turning. the only thing left to clarify is how damage effects the score.

 

[holden88]

holden88, how can you play it that way? its already been clarified that you need to move half of the ships move stat before turning. the only thing left to clarify is how damage effects the score.

How can we play i this way? We just house rule it. I don't play in tournaments or with anyone else beside my close group of friends. That's the beauty of buying a set of game rules, you own them and can do what ever you want with them.

Back to the RAW. Eairlier in the thread (on pg1) it was clarified that a ship must move 1/2 of its max move in a straight line before being able to turn.

We still have the same unanswered questions however, can a ship that has sustained damage and had its speed reduced to below 1/2 its orginal speed score still turn? And if it can, why can't an undamaged vessel slow down and turn the same as a damaged vessel?

 

[Der Kommandant]

We just house rule it.

cool, sorry if my question came out wierd.
i posted the damage question to the rulemasters forum so hopefully we'll see an answer soon.

So far VAS is great, its just to bad that there seem to be so many vague rules.

 

[Der Kommandant]

I have always played it based on "speed = distance moved in the turn", so if your ship is moving 6" you make the turn after 3", but if that ship is moving 4" it turns after 2". This fits my real world experience with warship manoeuvring better than what seems to be the current understanding (although its not perfect either )

isnt this contrary to what you just answered in the rulesmaster forum?
is this a house rule and the other "official"?

 

[DM]

I'm attempting to clarify this with Mongoose right now. The rule as interpreted based on maximum speed flies in the face of reality (or at least my perception of it after 20 years of working in the field of naval architecture, hydromechanics and warship operations).

I don't recall this coming up as an issue during playtesting (perhaps we all "knew" what the rule meant and didn't think it was soemthing to discuss)

 

[E Nicely]

A ship must move 1/2 its speed score before it can turn. Thats the rule.

If a ship has its speed decreased due to crits the modified speed score counts as its new speed. Ship reduced to 4" speed=2" movement before turning.

 

[Larac]

My father served on the USS Lexington the 2nd one, when I was playing a sub game, based in WWII, I had damaged a US carrier groups ships then turned to catch the carrier, it left me in the dust.

I asked him about it, he said that the ship, could do close to 38knots if it had to, but it was a bear to turn if not in the mid teens.

Wish I could call him but he's gone now.

But I do not think any large ship of WWII era turned best at full power.

Hope it all gets cleared up.

And thanks for reminding me of one of those good father passes to son moments.


Lee

 

[Soulmage]

I'll add here that we need to get some of the playtesters to toss in their comments on how they worked these issues out. I think Soulmage contributed, but maybe wasn't "in" as an official playtester. Is that correct?

Sadly no. I was included late as part of the BF:E playtest. But it was already to late to get in on VaS at that point.

. . . had I been part of the playtest, every rule would have been 100% clear! LOL!!

I did a lot of "clarity rewrites" for the BF:E book since I wound up not being able to do much actual playtesting. Hopefully they will use them!

So far VAS is great, its just to bad that there seem to be so many vague rules.

Every new game system will have some issues with this. I am actually very impressed with the lack of huge rules issues so far!

 

[Fitzwalrus]

A ship must move 1/2 its speed score before it can turn. Thats the rule.

If a ship has its speed decreased due to crits the modified speed score counts as its new speed. Ship reduced to 4" speed=2" movement before turning.

I believe this is the way most folks (myself included) think the rule should work, and actually is the way we played it at our "Guadalcanal" game a week ago.

The problem is that Mongoose's earlier post seems to say that you have to move half of your undamaged Speed, and that is what's causing all the hubbub.
Personally, I'm just going to go on playing it the way you suggest and not worry about it..... 8)

 

[Daddy Dragon]

I think this alternative has already been posted, but in case I missed it:

As my son and I have been playing it, you must move half of your ships top speed (before any damage) in order to turn and still be able to move afterward doing so. Otherwise, you move as far as you can, turn, and that concludes that ships movement.

YMMV,
Larry

 

[Oly]

A ship must move 1/2 its speed score before it can turn. Thats the rule.

If a ship has its speed decreased due to crits the modified speed score counts as its new speed. Ship reduced to 4" speed=2" movement before turning.

That's how I read the rule too.

When moving you can move up to your "speed" and can turn after half your "speed". When a ship is damaged it's "speed" is reduced.

The movement rule doesn't say you can move your current maximum speed, it just says "speed". It clearly means your speed as reduced by any damage though. Likewise the turn paragraph just says speed again so I'm thinking that once again it means what the ships current maximum speed is.

However I do agree with those who are are saying that this makes a damaged ship have a tighter turning circle.

Hopefully I'll get some games in soon and will play with the rule that people are suggesting where you say how fast your ship is going (with a maximum of half your speed) and can turn after half that distance.

In the end I'm going to fall on the side of keeping the game slick and easy to play. If that proves to be too much of a headache to keep track off then I'll ditch it and go with the less realistic, though simpler, rule of half the current speed statistic.

 

[holden88]

The movement rule doesn't say you can move your current maximum speed, it just says "speed". It clearly means your speed as reduced by any damage though. Likewise the turn paragraph just says speed again so I'm thinking that once again it means what the ships current maximum speed is.

How do you know "speed" doesn't mean how fast the ship is going THIS turn? You're just assuming it means the ships current maximum speed (as reduced by damage). Ships don't really have a fixed "speed". They can speed up or slow down as long as the don't exceed their maximum speed value. A ships "speed" for a given turn may only be 1", even though it could go faster if it wanted to.

All the rules say is that a ship must move 1/2 of its speed before turning. Once again, it all comes down to what they mean by "speed".

 

[Bede]

How do you know "speed" doesn't mean how fast the ship is going THIS turn? You're just assuming it means the ships current maximum speed (as reduced by damage). .

Because the rules text says a ship can only turn when "it has moved at least half its Speed in a straight line." (Page 5)

The capitilzation is significant as it signifies a proper noun which must refer to the "Speed" rating (Page 3).

If the intent was to require movement of one half of the distance the ship moves in a turn, the word "speed", not capitalized, would have been used.

 

[Chernobyl]

I still say if the mechanic was that much different from ACTA there would be better explanation.

Chern