Min movement and turning

[Totenkopfer]

This came up last night and I'd like a clarification. Do you have to move at least half your speed score as listed for the vessel, or half your current speed which could be as little as an inch before makin a turn?

I had the Schrnhorst tooling along at 1" to keep the distance from closing too fast and wanted to make a course adjustment. I move 1"forward, executed a one point turn and then moved 1". I was then told no, I must jump my speed to 6" and cant turn until after moving 3".

This doesnt make sense, what they are saying is you have to move full speed in order to make any course adjustment. That is ludicris. I look forward to hearing what you think or if there is a clarification.

 

[Soulmage]

I don't think either is correct.

We've been playing it that you must move half of the ship's total move score before you may execute a turn. There is NO requirement for any movement beyond that however. If you want to move three inches, turn and stop, you are perfectly free to do so!

When a ship has damage or is using Flank Speed, that affects the minimum distance needed to turn.

Is this how others play it/correct?

 

[Der Kommandant]

half your max move.

 

[Totenkopfer]

Ok it's a little less painfull once I re-read and like you said do not have to move after exectuting the turn.

 

[Court Jester]

I did wonder about this whilst reading my copy of the rules last night. Your minimum move is just 1", no matter what your maximum move is but to be able to turn you have to then speed up to at least half your max move.

At least that is how I read it.

 

[Totenkopfer]

That seems to be the concensus.

 

[Bullshot]

The way that we have interpreted it locally has been that you delcare your speed, with the minimum being 1", and you must move at least half that before you can turn. Let's take a look at how this thread is treating turning.

I have a ship with a Speed of 6". I can choose to move from 1" to 6" as my movement, so I can choose to move, say, 2". According to the concensus of this thread, I can't turn since I didn't move 3". Let's take that same ship and give it an engine hit for -2 Speed. Now, I have a speed of 4". I can choose to move 1" to 4". Again, I choose to move 2". Now, I can turn, since I have moved half my max speed. So, even though I can choose my speed in VaS to be less than my max, down to a minimum of 1", a damaged ship is still move manueverable than a one that is not broken. That doesn't even come close to making sense. It did for ACTA since you can't choose your speed, you are always going at max throttle. A ship in the ocean moving slower can turn tighter than one moving full throttle.

So, in short, is it 'official' from Mongoose that a ship has to move half its max speed before it can turn or is it that you can move half your declared speed? It makes Engine crits seem like they are more useful as you close in so you can cut in on the other guys turning.

BS

 

[Court Jester]

The way that we have interpreted it locally has been that you delcare your speed, with the minimum being 1", and you must move at least half that before you can turn. Let's take a look at how this thread is treating turning.

I have a ship with a Speed of 6". I can choose to move from 1" to 6" as my movement, so I can choose to move, say, 2". According to the concensus of this thread, I can't turn since I didn't move 3". Let's take that same ship and give it an engine hit for -2 Speed. Now, I have a speed of 4". I can choose to move 1" to 4". Again, I choose to move 2". Now, I can turn, since I have moved half my max speed. So, even though I can choose my speed in VaS to be less than my max, down to a minimum of 1", a damaged ship is still move manueverable than a one that is not broken. That doesn't even come close to making sense. It did for ACTA since you can't choose your speed, you are always going at max throttle. A ship in the ocean moving slower can turn tighter than one moving full throttle.

So, in short, is it 'official' from Mongoose that a ship has to move half its max speed before it can turn or is it that you can move half your declared speed? It makes Engine crits seem like they are more useful as you close in so you can cut in on the other guys turning.

BS

Hence why I was wondering about it when I read it. It would make sense that you had to move half the total distance you intend to move before you actually turn, instead of half you maximum move.

 

[holden88]

A ship in the ocean moving slower can turn tighter than one moving full throttle.

That's not true. In order to make really tight turns, warships go a fast as they can. And if a ship is going too slow it can't turn at all. That's why ships have things like bow thrusters and have tug boats assist them for docking.

We've always played that you need to move a minimum of 3" before you can conduct a turn. If engine damage reduces your top speed to below 3", then you can't turn.

 

[Soulmage]

In the Rulemasters forum, looks like an answer to this question was already posted. Maybe we should get a FAQ going here?

Can anybody tell me how you link to another specific thread on this forum when the address bar does not change? I've been typing it out by hand from the target URL in the lower left hand corner, but I'm getting too lazy to do that!!

 

[BuShips]

In the Rulemasters forum, looks like an answer to this question was already posted. Maybe we should get a FAQ going here?

Can anybody tell me how you link to another specific thread on this forum when the address bar does not change? I've been typing it out by hand from the target URL in the lower left hand corner, but I'm getting too lazy to do that!!

Soulmage, what I do is to "right-click" over the topic title and "copy shortcut", then paste it as a URL tag. I think that this may be the one you wanted:

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/p...8&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

I'm going to think for a few minutes before I answer with my opinion, but I liked Bullshot's example that indicates that a ship's damage control crew may want to turn the steam valves closed in a perfectly working ship to match the turning performance of a damaged ship :roll: .

 

[Court Jester]

Cool, glad that is sorted.

 

[Bullshot]

A ship in the ocean moving slower can turn tighter than one moving full throttle.

That's not true. In order to make really tight turns, warships go a fast as they can. And if a ship is going too slow it can't turn at all. That's why ships have things like bow thrusters and have tug boats assist them for docking.

We've always played that you need to move a minimum of 3" before you can conduct a turn. If engine damage reduces your top speed to below 3", then you can't turn.

Remember, Warships, or any large ship in general, is not a speed boat. They are large and massive. Yes, you must have some speed in order to turn, but if you go fast and try to turn, the momentum of your movement will carry you along in your original direction for a bit, making a wide turn. Your momentum will be based on mass and velocity. Think of a car on a loose gravel road. If you are not moving, you can't turn, obviously. If you are moving slow, you won't slip on the rocks as much and can turn tighter. The faster you go, the more you will slide and slip the wider your turn arc will be. The items on the bow and such help make tight quarters manuevering. Modern submarines have a small propulsion motor that drops out the bottom to help move around in ports at the pier and to manuever the boat around some.

BS

 

[Chernobyl]

 

[Wulf Corbett]

Remember, Warships, or any large ship in general, is not a speed boat. They are large and massive. Yes, you must have some speed in order to turn, but if you go fast and try to turn, the momentum of your movement will carry you along in your original direction for a bit, making a wide turn.

A ship with a decent keel won't sideslip. It WILL heel over alarmingly...

Wulf

 

[E Nicely]

half your max move.

And at least 1" forward movement no matter what (does add towards the half max speed before turning).

 

[BuShips]

Like Bullshot said, large warships will have their forward momentum resist a turn thus forcing a wider turning circle. There are several terms that I'm learning today after doing some research.

Advance- The distance gained in the original direction until a ship steadies on its final course. I might call this "sideslip".
Transfer- The distance gained at a right angle to the direction of the original course until the ship steadies onto its final course.
Tactical Diameter- The transfer involved in the execution of a single turn of 180 degrees.

From what I've been reading, there are many things that contribute to a particular ship's Tactical Diameter. Ship size, length, beam, number of propellers and even whether it has a single or dual rudder can all alter its turning ability. Shallow water for example will increase the tactical diameter by as much as 70% over deep water but we'll ignore this for VaS. For the purposes of VaS I'm sure about all that is important is whether the ship is small, medium or large I'd guess. Now what is being discussed is how a ship's speed affects its turning arc. I've been reading (and this makes sense) that a ship will have an increased TD when moving slowly (as others have mentioned) due to not enough water moving over the rudder. Thus, rudders are inefficient at very slow speeds. Also, at high speeds (as noted above) the ship's mass will increase the TD. I also found out that in real ships the pivot point is about one third back from the bow, but is at the very stern when going backwards. Here is a great page for definitions-

http://tpub.com/content/administration/14220/css/14220_339.htm

From what I've learned, a ship moving very slow or very fast will have a larger turning circle than at say a more moderate speed. The "sweet spot" for any ship is the tradeoff between having enough water movement over the rudder(s) to lallow the ship to turn well and not so high a speed as to have this good rudder efficiency countered by the ship's forward movement (inertia).

How does this translate for VaS? If a battleship has a speed rating of 6 and the real ship might be able to do 30 kts. then desiring to move 15 kts. would translate to a speed rating of 3 and if anything should allow it to turn tighter than while at full speed. I'd ignore this for VaS and keep it the same (which it is). I can't see why a BB moving at a speed of 2 (ten knots) would not still be able to make a normal turn as water is moving well over the rudder. Maybe moving at 5 kts. (speed one) would inpair the rudders in turning the ship, but it would still turn the ship. One solution might be that when a ship is moving at less than half of its rated speed a player could be directed to alternate between straight and turning movement. As this adds something more to remember between game turns, I'm not really liking this though. I'd like rather to force a ship moving under half of its rated speed to maybe use the next lower turning class. With a battleship at 1, I'd maybe have it use the longest side of the template that DM posted, and mark that as "1/2" turn rating. :?: Would this work, and be a simple (I know, house) rule?

 

[BuShips]

I just found some good info on rudder effectiveness. Even if a ship is at 2-3 kts. the rudders can still be effective-

Rudder effectiveness is dependent on flow velocity over the rudder surface.
“Bare steerageway” is the minimum speed at which a rudder is still effective. This is generally 2 to 3 knots for most ships.

I'll add that "effective" does not mean "efficient". :wink:

 

[Chernobyl]

the pivot point will vary from ship to ship of course

ships generally have multiple speed rating, and one rating that is determined to be most fuel efficient.

speed orders are generally: ahead 1/3, ahead 2/3, ahead standard, ahead full, ahead flank. (negelcting backwards movement)
standard is generally the most fuel efficient speed, but I'm not sure how that would pertain to most effective speed tor turning.
Additionally, orders for speed during combat are not the same as orders for speed during normal maneuvering operations.

Also, something else to consider is the effect of having multiple screws (props) some ships can maintain nearly the same speed with less than the maximum number of screws, but might not be able to accelerate as quickly.

Chernobyl

 

[holden88]

Yes, a ships forward momentum is going to resist a turning action, however a ship that is going very fast will keel over on it's side considerably as it turns. This has the effect of redirecting the momentum. A slow moving ship won't do this.

If I delve into my Hydrodynamics notes and engineering manuals I can probably deliver a more accurate and scientific explanation here. Suffice it to say that the fact is most large navy vessels can usually make tighter turns at higher speeds.

For example, the navy Frigate I serve on performs tighter turns at 28 knots than at any other speed. When the ship is conducting a high speed turn like this, you are literally walking on the bulkheads.