Min movement and turning
- Thread starter Totenkopfer
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holden88 said:
Real world experience such as that is very hard to beat :wink: . However, since that is probably not your ship's very top speed then that evidence supports what I've read today that maximum speed will offset part of the rudder's output in a turn. If that is the top speed of the ship, then what you've volunteered might be an anomaly such as a very efficient hull design. Not to mention that your ship is modern and very likely might have an APU to assist in turning and something that a WW2 ship would be very jealous of :lol: .
You're right, 28 knots is not the top speed of my ship. But it is very close. The official top speed is rated at 32+ knots (the real top speed is secret). And you are also correct, my ship does have some modern advantages that the older vessels didn't have.
For example, the prop blades have variable geometry. Which means that the prop blades rotate by means of a hydraulic actuators inside the prop hub. This allows the prop pitch to be constantly adjusted as speed changes. You see, for any given speed, there is a most efficient propellor blade pitch angle. If you conduct a hard turn with a variable pitch system the prop blade pitches will be adjusted accordingly (full ahead on one shaft and full astern on the other for example). On older ships, the prop pitch angles were fixed. Which means that manueverability and responsiveness were not what we can achieve today.
Also, nowadays the ships engine outputs to each shaft are computer controlled. Which, one again means must faster and more accurate response to helm movements and speed changes.
Modern advantages aside, I still hold that WWII era vessels would achieve a tighter turning radius more towards their high end speeds rather than their low end ones.
Did we actually get an official answer to the original question? Can a ship in VAS move only 1" and then conduct a turn, or must a ship be moved a minimum of 3" (and at least 1/2 its base move score) before being allowed to turn?
For example, the prop blades have variable geometry. Which means that the prop blades rotate by means of a hydraulic actuators inside the prop hub. This allows the prop pitch to be constantly adjusted as speed changes. You see, for any given speed, there is a most efficient propellor blade pitch angle. If you conduct a hard turn with a variable pitch system the prop blade pitches will be adjusted accordingly (full ahead on one shaft and full astern on the other for example). On older ships, the prop pitch angles were fixed. Which means that manueverability and responsiveness were not what we can achieve today.
Also, nowadays the ships engine outputs to each shaft are computer controlled. Which, one again means must faster and more accurate response to helm movements and speed changes.
Modern advantages aside, I still hold that WWII era vessels would achieve a tighter turning radius more towards their high end speeds rather than their low end ones.
Did we actually get an official answer to the original question? Can a ship in VAS move only 1" and then conduct a turn, or must a ship be moved a minimum of 3" (and at least 1/2 its base move score) before being allowed to turn?
holden88 said:
Well, your opinion and mine are actually much closer to being similar. My only remaining point (and I think supported by your fine experience) was that your ship's best turning circle was below its best speed, although it was within the upper number range of its performance. If speed was the total arbiter of turning performance then it would be a consistant rising line. I'm ignoring such things that your ship has that WW2 ships didn't include. I'm just being nitpicky, of course. At the highest speeds I feel that momentum works against the ship's turn a bit. At least that's what I saw mentioned during my "googling". In the Rulesmasters section of the forum, (http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/p...8&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=) Mongoose Acolyte answered David S's question of: For a ship to be able to turn, must it move at least half its Speed stat or half its intended move for the turn before executing a turn? with: Half its Speed score. So you would have to move 3 inches in order to turn with a Speed 6 ship. With what I've researched today, I'd rather the answer have been the other position
because of the great argument that a damaged ship with a lowered speed score will be able to navigate right through a loophole in that directive. Being able to halve the desired speed does not cause this contradiction. A way to close the loophole with the current ruling would be to say that the limitation is based upon the original speed rating so that tricky players don't have damage repair crews turn off steam power temporarily :shock: . :lol:Not always. As I think was mentioned above (please bear with me - I've just spent 9 hours driving from Edinburgh to Bristol through the storms and I'm knackered, as well as badly behind on messages
), rudder effectiveness is the key. Here's some interesting notes:HMS York - tactical diameter of 750 yards with 35 degrees of rudder applied, 14 knots into the turn.
HMS Nelson - tactical diameter of 620yards with 35 degrees of rudder applied, 14 knots into the turn.
Nelson had very nicely designed rudders (as well as a good hydrodynamic form)
Was that the actual intent of the answer?BuShips said:Mongoose Acolyte answered David S's question of: For a ship to be able to turn, must it move at least half its Speed stat or half its intended move for the turn before executing a turn? with: Half its Speed score. So you would have to move 3 inches in order to turn with a Speed 6 ship. With what I've researched today, I'd rather the answer have been the other position
I interpreted the answer as the restriction on having to move half of the speed score before turning will remain constant during the game, even after sustaining engine damage.
So a ship with a starting Speed score of 6 would still have to move three inches even after sustaining engine hits slowing its maximum Speed to 4.
Kevin
We have, at least here, pretty much house ruled that before moving your ship or measuring distance, declare a speed between 1 and your max. Use that number as your speed score for turning. You can do that and cut your turn arc down for tighter turns, but you sacrifice displacement for it. That will also put you opponent at the advantage that he can open up the distance between you if he so desires. Is it the most accurate way to turn, probably not, but at the same VaS is a fast paced, easy to play game that sacrifices some of the realism and simulation for ease of play.
BS
BS
DM said:
Not always. As I think was mentioned above (please bear with me - I've just spent 9 hours driving from Edinburgh to Bristol through the storms and I'm knackered, as well as badly behind on messages
HMS York - tactical diameter of 750 yards with 35 degrees of rudder applied, 14 knots into the turn.
HMS Nelson - tactical diameter of 620yards with 35 degrees of rudder applied, 14 knots into the turn.
Nelson had very nicely designed rudders (as well as a good hydrodynamic form)
Point accepted. I guess I was thinking of that in terms of momentum and enertia of large ships versus small ones. I was aware that there are quite a few variables to throw into the mix, such as number and placement of propellers, number of rudders and placement of those rudders, hull shape (length-to-beam ratio) and rudder angles at various speeds and even water depth (deep versus shallow). Here are some additional interesting turning circles to add to your fine examples:
Yamato/Musashi @ 700 yards
Iowa class @ 814 yards
KGV @ 930 yards
Vangaurd @ 1025 yards
My favorite battleship-
USS Washington @ 575 at 14.5 kts. 8)
underling said:Was that the actual intent of the answer?BuShips said:Mongoose Acolyte answered David S's question of: For a ship to be able to turn, must it move at least half its Speed stat or half its intended move for the turn before executing a turn? with: Half its Speed score. So you would have to move 3 inches in order to turn with a Speed 6 ship. With what I've researched today, I'd rather the answer have been the other position
I interpreted the answer as the restriction on having to move half of the speed score before turning will remain constant during the game, even after sustaining engine damage.
So a ship with a starting Speed score of 6 would still have to move three inches even after sustaining engine hits slowing its maximum Speed to 4.
Kevin
It was not discussed there what would happen in the case of a damaged ship, but as I brought up earlier a real ship can still turn doing under 1" of movement (Bare steerageway). Jammed rudders happened, but that was usually caused by direct damage. Even if power was lost, rudder control could still be done manually in some cases.
Soulmage said:
Yeah, and that's why I'm not liking the ruling as such as it would not even get close to reality, even accepting VaS being a fast-play rules design. I'd give the ship the ability to turn even at those slower speeds, with the knowledge that the ship's limited speed would take a number of consecutive turns to turn around.
I'm fairly certain that none of critical hit special effects are cumulative.
From the VAS book:
"The special effects of critical hits are not cumulative but players should note each critical hit scored, as each must be repaired seperately using damage control.
For example, if a ship suffers both the Turbine Damaged and the Props Damaged critical hits, then its speed will drop by -2 (the effect of the props being damaged being more severe than that of the turbines). However, once the proprs are repaired, the ship will still suffer a -1 penalty to speed, as the turbines will still be damaged and thus still be in effect."
I think that's pretty clear.
So, aside from "Engines Disabled" (which drops speed to 0 thus preventing any turning), "Fuel Systems Ruptured" is the most severe engine damage critical. This will drop a ships speed down by a maximum of 3".
Note that the rules don't prevent a ship from using the "Flank Speed!" special action to temporarily boost your speed which may enable a ship to turn despite reduced speed due to damage.
Even a ship with a base of 5" that looses 3" of movement from "Fuel Systems Ruptured" will still be able to turn by invoking the "Flank Speed" special action. That would be base speed of 5", -3" from damage, +1" from Flank Speed (1/2 of new base speed of 2" ), for a grand total of 3" of movement. The ship is required to move at least 2.5" before turning (1/2 of original base speed of 5").
As far as I can tell, only ships with a base speed of 4" or less are able to be damaged to the point where they can't turn (excepting rudder damage of course).
From the VAS book:
"The special effects of critical hits are not cumulative but players should note each critical hit scored, as each must be repaired seperately using damage control.
For example, if a ship suffers both the Turbine Damaged and the Props Damaged critical hits, then its speed will drop by -2 (the effect of the props being damaged being more severe than that of the turbines). However, once the proprs are repaired, the ship will still suffer a -1 penalty to speed, as the turbines will still be damaged and thus still be in effect."
I think that's pretty clear.
So, aside from "Engines Disabled" (which drops speed to 0 thus preventing any turning), "Fuel Systems Ruptured" is the most severe engine damage critical. This will drop a ships speed down by a maximum of 3".
Note that the rules don't prevent a ship from using the "Flank Speed!" special action to temporarily boost your speed which may enable a ship to turn despite reduced speed due to damage.
Even a ship with a base of 5" that looses 3" of movement from "Fuel Systems Ruptured" will still be able to turn by invoking the "Flank Speed" special action. That would be base speed of 5", -3" from damage, +1" from Flank Speed (1/2 of new base speed of 2" ), for a grand total of 3" of movement. The ship is required to move at least 2.5" before turning (1/2 of original base speed of 5").
As far as I can tell, only ships with a base speed of 4" or less are able to be damaged to the point where they can't turn (excepting rudder damage of course).
Fitzwalrus
Mongoose
Any ship that has been Crippled has it's Turn reduced to 1 and it's Speed permanently reduced by half [pg. 8]. Add in speed reductions from Criticals and it's very possible to get a ship down below half it's normal speed, and we're saying a ship that cannot make at least half it's normal speed cannot turn at all? :shock:
Doesn't work, guys: it's factual and historic nonsense, as the posts here about ships turning at various speed have shown.
Make it so a ship that cannot do half it's original speed can only turn at the end of it's movement and you've got something: say it can't turn at all and you'll have folks throwing the rules in the air and walking away again.
Doesn't work, guys: it's factual and historic nonsense, as the posts here about ships turning at various speed have shown.
Make it so a ship that cannot do half it's original speed can only turn at the end of it's movement and you've got something: say it can't turn at all and you'll have folks throwing the rules in the air and walking away again.
Chernobyl said:
That is what we want to know. If turning is related to 1/2 of a ship's speed rating, does this turning requirement stay fixed at the original speed rating or does it drop due to damage. If it does drop due to damage, then a damaged ship could turn inside of the turning circle of its identical sistership. So the question then becomes why can't a ship that desires to lower its speed just use 1/2 of that movement as the turning requirement? I know we're beating this to death but really it's just friendly discussion and some random trivia enjoyed along the way to an answer. I won't take the lead on this with Mongoose as I'm sitting here without even a rulebook yet, but someone could jump over to the Rulesmasters thread and pose the additional question to the one already there maybe.
Fitzwalrus said:
Just to put this in perspective then. A ship has had it's superstructure crippled. It has engine, props and turbines damage. And your saying that people will have a big problem with this ship not being able to turn!? Are people even trying to emulate WWII naval warfare? It doesn't sound too unreasonable to me that this ship will be unable to maneuver. Most of the weapons have generous firing arcs, so even ship that can't turn will still be a threat. And eventually the damage control parties will fix those crits and get the ship turning again.
And as far as factual and historical nonsense, unless I missed something the above posts support the idea that real life ships need to be going fast to make tight turns (Note I said fast not their maximum speed). Certainly ships that are moving slowly are going to be limited in their turning ability.
Of course the rules are not entirely clear and may well may work exactly as you describe. Then the question I'd have to ask is - why can a ship that has been damaged and had it's speed reduced perform tighter turns than an undamaged ship?
I do like the idea that ships with their speed reduced to below 1/2 their starting speed must make their entire move before being allowed to turn though.
Fitzwalrus
Mongoose
holden88 said:
A ship in the first instance above can still move, albeit slowly, and still has use of it's rudders (unless it has also taken the "Rudders" crit.)
In other words, it is now in the circumstance described in the second instance: a slow-moving vessel whose turning ability is limited, but not lost entirely.
As BuShips mentioned earlier, "bare steerageway" will allow a vessel to still turn (so long as her rudders are operable) at a bare minimum of speed, so long as she can move enough water past her rudders to effect the position of the hull. I'm not saying a damaged ship shouldn't be limited: that's why I suggested the idea of only turning at the end of movement if you no longer can move half of your original Speed. I'm saying a game mechanic that says a ship that drops below a certain speed cannot turn at all runs counter to reality, "bare steerageway", and common sense.
As to the fact that a slow moving ship in this situation is making a tighter turn than it could if it weren't damaged, that is offset (IMHO) by the fact that it is moving very little distance in the process, and has nowhere near the tactical flexibility it does when undamaged.
The problem is really caused by the differences in game mechanics between an angle-turn system (like VAS) and one that uses a set turning radius guide to move ships: in the latter case a ship in this situation would be making a verrrrry slow turn, and the perceived difference in turning ability at the two speeds wouldn't come up.
I can deal with the problem in VAS: a ship that badly damaged has better things to worry about than the relative angle it's making a turn at. What I don't want to deal with is a mechanic that says a ship that can make headway and has functioning rudders suddenly cannot turn at all because her speed has dropped below some mythical number at which point her rudders somehow don't work any more. That simply makes no sense.
Fitzwalrus said:
Well said, Fitzwalrus. I think you stated your case well. You're keeping within the "spirit" of the game's complexity, or rather lack thereof, while trying to steer clear (can I say this here?, lol) of a possible oversimplification of a simple set of rules. Stated maybe differently, ships without a rudder critical or DIW (does the game include this???) should always have some small ability to turn. Something new just occurred to me as I write this (oh no...!!!) but does a rudder critical break down into "rudder jammed to starboard", "Rudder jammed to port" or "rudder jammed to center"? This would be "fun" as to then force a ship to make uncontrolled movement (ala Bismarck in its final battle). :idea:
