Military ships and crew

[Sigtrygg]

Funny the Whitestars which are higher tech than the standard Minbari ship use barracks for all the crew.

Whitestar barracks are mentioned here:

not exactly triple bunks stacked like sardines is it...

Submarines run a similar environmental requirements as a space ship which makes it a very realistic comparison.

In your opinion. In my opinion I don't think they equate at all, modern submarines are not 57th century starships.

Tech level doesn’t eliminate the fact that space on a warship is limited

This would only be true if the entire ship were built in cubic metres rather than displacement tons and every corridor and cupgoard accounted for. There is a certain amount of abstraction in the ship design system How much of the jump drive tonnage is machinery and how much is access?

or the fact that part of military discipline is rank has its advantages which you want to eliminate.

Why would you want to eliminate the privilege of rank. Higher ranks getting more room is partially to account for the meeting spaces they require, the abstraction again. A 4 ton stateroom for an admiral could be 2 tons living area and 2 tons conference. Unless you are going to account for everything separately we are left with the abstraction. This was perhaps best summed up all the way back in HG'79

"The following items are suggested uses for interior space aboard a starship. The actual masses and costs for such areas are left to the referee when actually designing such a ship. Many of these items are subsumed in the costs and tonnages of 4 ton staterooms. In most cases, such areas are required only when drawing up deck plans. Food Service Areas, including mess hall, galley, ward room. Scientific Areas, including laboratories and storerooms. Electronics Areas, including commo suites, avionics areas, electronics counter-measures installations, gunnery simulation trainers, computer operations areas and parts storage. Vehicle Decks, including garaging, maintenance bays, launching areas and parts storage. Recycling Stations. Medical Areas, including isolation wards, surgeries, pharmacies, and examination rooms. Recreational Facilities, including theatres, crafts shops, libraries, and pool rooms. Agricultural Areas, including fresh food gardens, hydroponics areas, and algae tanks. Troop Barracks, including squad areas, training rooms, armories, brigs, ammunition magazines, vacc suit storage, capsule launch areas and briefing rooms."

 

[swordtart]

"The following items are suggested uses for interior space aboard a starship. The actual masses and costs for such areas are left to the referee when actually designing such a ship. Many of these items are subsumed in the costs and tonnages of 4 ton staterooms. In most cases, such areas are required only when drawing up deck plans. Food Service Areas, including mess hall, galley, ward room. Scientific Areas, including laboratories and storerooms. Electronics Areas, including commo suites, avionics areas, electronics counter-measures installations, gunnery simulation trainers, computer operations areas and parts storage. Vehicle Decks, including garaging, maintenance bays, launching areas and parts storage. Recycling Stations. Medical Areas, including isolation wards, surgeries, pharmacies, and examination rooms. Recreational Facilities, including theatres, crafts shops, libraries, and pool rooms. Agricultural Areas, including fresh food gardens, hydroponics areas, and algae tanks. Troop Barracks, including squad areas, training rooms, armories, brigs, ammunition magazines, vacc suit storage, capsule launch areas and briefing rooms."

This is no longer true in MGT2. The majority of those spaces are now specifically called out in components with their own tonnage and cost. That is one of the reasons I don't think a 4 DTon stateroom is the same as an old school 4 Dton stateroom and why they can and should be smaller and why for the majority of crew a 1Dton spacer niche (i.e. barracks) is entirely appropriate.

If we are assuming that a crew stateroom includes all the stuff necessary to do their job (laboratory, electronics areas, commo suites, vehicle decks etc.) then we don't need to allocate space for that elsewhere and we can get ships smaller that way. We could get the Lab Ship down to 300 Dtons easily if we assume the labs are part of the 4 DTon stateroom allocation rather than a discrete component that needs to be installed.

That video you included seemed to be more alongside space ship accommodation being more compressed than Traveller indicates. Not triple stacked like that WW2 ship or a submarine, but those spaces looked nothing like 14 cubic metres per person either (the sub bunks and even the modern ship looked more like 4 cubic metres if that).

 

[Sigtrygg]

This is no longer true in MGT2.

Never claimed it was. And isn't the game all the richer for the contradictions and arguments.

The majority of those spaces are now specifically called out in components with their own tonnage and cost.

I think you missed the point. You buy a stateroom but designate it as a lab space for example. You don't get a free lab just because you have a scientist in a stateroom.

That is one of the reasons I don't think a 4 DTon stateroom is the same as an old school 4 Dton stateroom and why they can and should be smaller and why for the majority of crew a 1Dton spacer niche (i.e. barracks) is entirely appropriate.

Then scrap staterooms and account for life support and environmental control per person and then allocate berth space, while at it make sure you have enough food preparation areas, stores, spares etc and all the other components that are abstracted by ship design.

If we are assuming that a crew stateroom includes all the stuff necessary to do their job (laboratory, electronics areas, commo suites, vehicle decks etc.)

That is not the assumption.

then we don't need to allocate space for that elsewhere and we can get ships smaller that way.

Which is what everyone is intent on doing by reducing berthing volume...

We could get the Lab Ship down to 300 Dtons easily if we assume the labs are part of the 4 DTon stateroom allocation rather than a discrete component that needs to be installed.

Then there is no where for the scientists to sleep or eat.

That video you included seemed to be more alongside space ship accommodation being more compressed than Traveller indicates. Not triple stacked like that WW2 ship or a submarine, but those spaces looked nothing like 14 cubic metres per person either (the sub bunks and even the modern ship looked more like 4 cubic metres if that).

The stateroom is more than just the sleeping area. It is the only abstraction we have for all the stuff needed to cater for a person aboard a spaceship.

 

[phavoc]

The pic I showed was literally crew quarters on a submarine for enlisted E-4 and under. The whole ideal that crew gets the same living quarters no matter what the rank is just not true and the fact that not a one of you have addressed this just shows you don’t understand the military. You can say troops are passengers and get no space because they are on the ship temporarily but that doesn’t actually fit the game. Travel time makes this unrealistic if you can keep troops in a barracks for months even years at a time while moving them from one system to the next keeping crew in the same sort of environment for the same amount of time only makes sense.

Also apparently you not paying attention that what I’m saying, my point from the beginning has been that the rule that barracks are only for passengers should be changed in the case of military ships. On a military ship the rule should be that crew and troops can both be housed in barracks since that’s actually how it’s done in real life. Quoting the rules over and over again mean nothing when we are talking about rule changes.

Yeah, I can see the conversation between us is going nowhere. There's no point in continuing to discuss this topic as you are stating things I didn't say. If I'm misinterpreting that, please provide the specific quotes to where I said those things because I don't believe I did. Now, how you interpret them is all you, as it is with everyone.

My entire point is the interpretation of the rule - and I don't think I've quoted the rules myself anywhere. I've explained my view of the military and my experience in the military (and I've never claimed to be a swabbie, though I have been aboard a number of ships, especially older ones). Differentiating assigned crew based on their role is a cheat. Every crew member of the same rank should be treated the same. And I have differentiated my definition of that. 2 man cabins for crew have been the norm for many versions. Having barracks isn't the issue. (or not mine at least). It was differentiating putting ships troops in barracks and naval crew in cabins. So long as everyone of the same rank is treated equally for cubeage then you've got a reasonable standard.

Thanks for the discussion though. And thank you for not devolving it as well. Those are always tedious ones.

 

[swordtart]

Never claimed it was. And isn't the game all the richer for the contradictions and arguments.

Was CT any less contradictory or the player base any less argumentative. As you have mentioned before many of these arguments have been raging since the first editions (just less publicly as we didn't have such a player base or such public forums). It would have been nice if later editions settled them but there was always someone to argue it was better in the old edition and publishers didn't want to rock the boat.

I think you missed the point. You buy a stateroom but designate it as a lab space for example. You don't get a free lab just because you have a scientist in a stateroom.

Ah ok. I took the phrase "Many of these items are subsumed in the costs and tonnages of 4 ton staterooms" to mean those items were included in the cost and tonnages of 4 ton staterooms. That is the normal meaning of subsumed.

There are far less circuitous ways of saying "if you want to include things like labs, just treat them as staterooms with respect to cost and tonnage".

I am honestly unable to see how it could be interpreted any other way, but as it is from HG1979 and of only historic interest I am content to leave it. All of my other points are subordinate to my interpretation of the word subsumed. If you reject that then the others fall by default.

 

[Talon Greyfeather]

All I know is this is going to be a loooong week in jump ...

 

[MarcusIII]

Swap 3 & 7 in that Shinigami!

 

[Sigtrygg]

Ah ok. I took the phrase "Many of these items are subsumed in the costs and tonnages of 4 ton staterooms" to mean those items were included in the cost and tonnages of 4 ton staterooms. That is the normal meaning of subsumed.

No, it means you use the cost and tonnage of the stateroom in lieu of having a separate cost and space for a lab, armory, barracks etc.

There are far less circuitous ways of saying "if you want to include things like labs, just treat them as staterooms with respect to cost and tonnage".

If only the Traveller authors had clarity of language as a prime directive, sadly they were wargamers and wargame designers.

I am honestly unable to see how it could be interpreted any other way, but as it is from HG1979 and of only historic interest I am content to leave it. All of my other points are subordinate to my interpretation of the word subsumed. If you reject that then the others fall by default.

I just showed you how it can be interpreted another way, you choose not to.

Didn't you earlier in the thread use previous editions to justify your re-interpretation of the very clear Mongoose rules or was that someone else?

Post #53

 

[tytalan]

not exactly triple bunks stacked like sardines is it...

Bunk beds are not stacked like sardines this is just a misrepresentation your using to push your argument

This would only be true if the entire ship were built in cubic metres rather than displacement tons and every corridor and cupgoard accounted for. There is a certain amount of abstraction in the ship design system How much of the jump drive tonnage is machinery and how much is access?

.
1dt is a measure of volume just like cubic meters so here you’re again misrepresenting the actual case. A dt is no different that a liter, a is the volume of one Kg of water at 0 degrees C that’s no different that a dt being the volume of liquid H at a certain temperature (I don’t that the temp every been defined in the game). A dt is not a measure of mass never has been never will be.

Why would you want to eliminate the privilege of rank. Higher ranks getting more room is partially to account for the meeting spaces they require, the abstraction again. A 4 ton stateroom for an admiral could be 2 tons living area and 2 tons conference. Unless you are going to account for everything separately we are left with the abstraction. This was perhaps best summed up all the way back in HG'79

No the 4dt would be the admiral quarters conferences are held in briefing rooms. The admiral would get more personal room and luxury that’s one of the perks of having higher rank. You don’t seem to understand what privilege of rank means.

 

[tytalan]

The stateroom is more than just the sleeping area. It is the only abstraction we have for all the stuff needed to cater for a person aboard a spaceship.

You got this wrong at least partially while a stateroom is more than a sleeping area it’s not much more. A stateroom is closer to a cruise ships stateroom “ Staterooms represent the living space for both crew and passengers on ships. A single stateroom contains living and sleepinfacilities, including a bed, fresher and a very basic kitchen. “ which while has more than just sleeping it’s not much more that’s what COMMON AREAS ARE FOR “ It is common practice to assign an additional amount of tonnage, perhaps equal to a quarter of that used for staterooms, as common areas or general living space.” The stateroom gives you a private area to relax and personal refresher and possibly a hot plate. Barracks don’t have this because they rely on common areas and privacy is not an expectation when you’re in the military.

 

[tytalan]

All I know is this is going to be a loooong week in jump ...

View attachment 7274

Love this you have according to Sigtrygg 10 people in 3 staterooms that’s if the captain have his own. I’d like to see the tonnage breakdown since I’m willing to bet that gunners at the minimum are in the barracks and the common areas are way under sized. It should have 14dt not 4dt that’s one thing that I think also need to be changed you must have on a military ship common areas equal to 1/5 of the quarters and barracks at the minimum. What book is this from?

 

[Sigtrygg]

Bunk beds are not stacked like sardines this is just a misrepresentation your using to push your argument

I do not think that word means what you think it means. I am providing arguments to represent my point, you object, that is not misrepresentation it is misunderstanding or malfeasance take your pick

.
1dt is a measure of volume just like cubic meters so here your again misrepresenting the actual case

And one agin you are using the term erroneously. My point is represented - in order to have the detail you crave then we need a more granular construction system, at least down to tenths of a cubic metre, and all components, machinery, and access ways accounted for. Until then we have a displacement ton abstraction that represents all three.

No the 4dt would be the admiral quarters conferences are held in briefing rooms.

No, the deck plan could use 4 squares for his quarters and 4 squares for the conference area, total 8 squares or four "displacement tons" by area.

The admiral would get more personal room and luxury that’s one of the perks of having higher rank. You don’t seem to understand what privilege of rank means.

You were the one arguing to get rid of it, make up your mind.

 

[Sigtrygg]

You got this wrong at least partially

A stateroom is an abstraction for all the environmental machinery needed to keep one crew member alive. or can you point me to some other system that abstracts life support etc. On the deck plan the stateroom is the accomodation, any corridors used to access it, and all the machinery hidden in the roof space and under the floor.

while a stateroom is more than a sleeping area it’s not much more. A stateroom is closer to a cruise ships stateroom

That is just the accommodation component. Elsewhere in the ship are the kitchens, stores, water treatment, air conditioning, heating and so much more. Mongoose Travelle does not supply this detail, it abstract it to stateroom and other accommodation units. Plus the environmental systems for a space ship have to include atmosphere recyling that a cruise liner doesn't.

Analogies with sea going vessels can only go so far and then you have to start looking at the real practicalities. NASA has lots of articles and papers about keeping people alive in space craft and stations.

which while has more than just sleeping it’s not much more that’s what COMMON AREAS ARE FOR “ It is common practice to assign an additional amount of tonnage, perhaps equal to a quarter of that used for staterooms, as common areas or general living space.”

Lol, it is not mandatory, just common practice. Try continuing to read...
"This is not strictly necessary and ships can and will vary in this allocation, either increasing it to give crews and passengers a more luxurious and comfortable journey or cutting back to give more space to useful components, at a cost to crew comfort"

The stateroom gives you a private area to relax and personal refresher and possibly a hot plate. Barracks don’t have this because they rely on common areas and privacy is not an expectation when you’re in the military.

So where in the ship construction sections are the environment control machines? The staterooms you allocate to the crew are the only abstraction that has ever made sense. More granular Traveller ship construction systems go into this detail - Mongoose chooses not to.

 

[tytalan]

And one agin you are using the term erroneously. My point is represented - in order to have the detail you crave then we need a more granular construction system, at least down to tenths of a cubic metre, and all components, machinery, and access ways accounted for. Until then we have a displacement ton abstraction that represents all three.

Wrong a dt is 14 cubic meters that’s literally the game definition. Since the scale is generally 1.5 meters per square and two squares are a dt than the hight is roughly 3.11 meters per square now the actual room and hallway hight is listed as about 2.5 meters per square which means you have roughly 1.5*3*.61 meters above/below for life support and other services. The whole idea of accounting for every little detail is ludicrous this is a game not an engineering seminar. 14 cubic meters of volume gives us all the details we need.

If a barrack area is 1dt that means every person has 1.5*3 meters square floor area or roughly 4.5 foot by 9 foot since a twin size bed is standardly about 3 foot by 6.25 foot and since common areas cover dining, refreshers, and other common area needs your comments about stack like sardines is BS. If your using bunk beds than every pair of crewmen have 4.5 Foot by 9 foot in the barracks beyond the bed area. I’ve been in college rooms with less room and people all over the world live in tighter spaces. Or to give a clearer picture every two crewmen have 9 cubic meters of floor space (or 318 cubic feet) hight does really matter in this case. This apartment is literally 318 cubic foot and your telling me it’s being packed like sardines

 

[MarcusIII]

Analogies with sea going vessels can only go so far and then you have to start looking at the real practicalities. NASA has lots of articles and papers about keeping people alive in space craft and stations.

This is why I use subs as an example. Except for O2 from the sea they are like spaceships as far as basic crew survival. And we can substitute cracking of CO2 using high tech in place of sea water for extra O2. And water reclamation of course. The ship building system I use also abstracts L.S. machinery and at least 2 week food supply & other people facilities like kitchen/mess/lounge as part of the "4 ton" stateroom.

 

[tytalan]

Lol, it is not mandatory, just common practice. Try continuing to read...
"This is not strictly necessary and ships can and will vary in this allocation, either increasing it to give crews and passengers a more luxurious and comfortable journey or cutting back to give more space to useful components, at a cost to crew comfort"

Read elsewhere without this space you have extreme moral and poor living conditions, while it says it’s not required in high guard elsewhere it most certainly says it’s required.

 

[swordtart]

No, it means you use the cost and tonnage of the stateroom in lieu of having a separate cost and space for a lab, armory, barracks etc.
If only the Traveller authors had clarity of language as a prime directive, sadly they were wargamers and wargame designers.
I just showed you how it can be interpreted another way, you choose not to.

That isn't any normal interpretation of subsumed, but I take your point on clarity.

Didn't you earlier in the thread use previous editions to justify your re-interpretation of the very clear Mongoose rules or was that someone else?
Post #53

Yep, but clearly stating I was referring from CT (but recognising that wording has been in place in multiple editions since). I have always referred back to earlier versions to see if they have additional context. Often newer rules are shorthand for established rules that originally had much more detailed explanations. Sometimes the modern wording loses the context and creates ambiguity. I am playing MGT2 for good or ill and HG2022 has specific rules for labs so how HG1979 fudged them is not pertinent.

There is a difference between proposing an alternative approach to accommodations using elements of the current rule set in way that is not intended (discussing abuse of the rules if you will) vs. misinterpreting or misquoting the rules and arguing that is the way they should be interpreted. I try to do the former, I will call out where I see the latter. I don't care how other people play their game. I do care how they represent the rules to others.

I am suggesting that barracks for crew could be implemented but it surely needs to impose some additional common room requirement. I am not suggesting that is RAW or even RAI, I am discussing whether the space allowed for barracks is plausible for other crew than Marines and what the distinction in duty is and therefore whether it is credible to allow it for all crew, a subset of the crew (just marines or maybe others) or whether it should be reserved purely for transported troops and basic passengers (and not marines or ships troops). I also want to know what the impact is on the people so accommodated.

I am going to do what I want regardless of what the rules or anyone else says. I am not looking for validation, I am looking for alternative arguments to come up with the best solution for my game. I'll use RAW when I can as I don't like doing unnecessary work and any change risks breaking something else. Sometimes I'll accept a sub-optimal solution or chose to deliberately mis-interpret a few words to make the whole thing hang together better.

 

[tytalan]

So where in the ship construction sections are the environment control machines? The staterooms you allocate to the crew are the only abstraction that has ever made sense. More granular Traveller ship construction systems go into this detail - Mongoose chooses not to.

It’s literally been stated time and again that those systems are literally in the floors and ceiling as well are the walls. You keep going on about the tech difference yet you ignore it to support your argument. Ever look above a drop ceiling? That’s a lot of space and it’s not just the cabins it’s the whole ship.

 

[tytalan]

I am suggesting that barracks for crew could be implemented but it surely needs to impose some additional common room requirement. I am not suggesting that is RAW or even RAI, I am discussing whether the space allowed for barracks is plausible for other crew than Marines and what the distinction in duty is and therefore whether it is credible to allow it for all crew, a subset of the crew (just marines or maybe others) or whether it should be reserved purely for transported troops and basic passengers (and not marines or ships troops). I also want to know what the impact is on the people so accommodated.

I standardly use a minimum of 1/5 the volume of all housing and normal around 1/4 for common areas this seems more than reasonable. most large warships already have that so it’s not normally an issue.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Wrong a dt is 14 cubic meters that’s literally the game definition.

What has that got to do with anything I represented? I am well aware that the dt is 14 m³.

The point I am making is that the tonnage abstracts what is actually in it; do you do a deck plan with access space to the jump drive or a solid block of machinery?

Since the scale is generally 1.5 meters per square and two squares are a dt than the hight is roughly 3.11 meters per square now the actual room and hallway hight is listed as about 2.5 meters per square which means you have roughly 1.5*3*.61 meters above/below for life support and other services. The whole idea of accounting for every little detail is ludicrous this is a game not an engineering seminar. 14 cubic meters of volume gives us all the details we need.

Umm, you do know that is the very point I am making. The machinery is hidden in the losft and floor space but is accounted for by the stateroom tonnage?

If a barrack area is 1dt that means every person has 1.5*3 meters square floor area or roughly 4.5 foot by 9 foot since a twin size bed is standardly about 3 foot by 6.25 foot and since common areas cover dining, refreshers, and other common area needs your comments about stack like sardines is BS.

If your using bunk beds than every pair of crewmen have 4.5 Foot by 9 foot in the barracks beyond the bed area. I’ve been in college rooms with less room and people all over the world live in tighter spaces.

Not relevant.

Or to give a clearer picture every two crewmen have 9 cubic meters of floor space (or 318 cubic feet) hight does really matter in this case.

Again not relevant.

This apartment is literally 318 cubic foot and your telling me it’s being packed like sardines

You don't appear to be able to follow the topic being discussed.

I ask again, where is the environmental machinery accounted for in the ship construction system?