Maximun Attack Bonus Penalty

Voltumna

Mongoose
When you use two feats that require to take an attack penalty that should not exceed your BAB, can the combined penalties of both feats exceed your BAB?

Say your BAB is 12, and your total attack bonus is 18 with different modifiers. You are using Combat Expertise and Power attack in the same round. Could you take take -5 for CE and -8 for PA even if the combined penalties exceed your BAB, although they don't exceed yout total attack bonus?

I would say that they could, the penalties from the two feats are independent.

I'm not sure in what situations doing that would be advantageous, though; you'd be looking at a rather stiff penalty to your attack roll.

I would say that they could, the penalties from the two feats are independent.

I'm not sure in what situations doing that would be advantageous, though; you'd be looking at a rather stiff penalty to your attack roll.

If you had surprise, your opponent was flatfooted, and you had a number of feats that raised your attack bonus anyway and/or a high ability modifier to attack. You might not do it everytime, but let's say for argument that you successfully feinted someone who didn't have uncanny dodge or relexive parry. The follow up attack could then, conceivably, be used combining the two feats.

Voltumna said:
When you use two feats that require to take an attack penalty that should not exceed your BAB, can the combined penalties of both feats exceed your BAB?

I would read the ruels as saying that you can as there is nothing about 'combined penelties' However I don't think the extra modifiers matter either
You can take CE because the penelty (5) does not exceed your BAB of 12
You can take PA for the same reason the penelty (8) does not exceed your BAB of 12

This however is an Errata question : In calculating these (and simillar) things should all modifiers be taken into account on a cumulative basis at the time the skill is used or are these requirments pre-requists ?

AS ever it's G.M.s call lets do a little example (without dice rolls)
Two borderers are having a fight,one knocks the other to the ground and he fails to get up, The guy n the ground is much easier to hitsince he has penelties to parry and cannot dodge so it makes sense to give him a mighty whack.

In dice rolling terms you may only need to get a ten-twelve to hit so you should gamble reducing your attack bonuses to get most damage...

Yes there is a chance he will manage to parry but it's low and you could get upto 3 chances without any second attacks as in ---

He uses his 'move' action to try to get up provoking an AoO if you hit he doesn't get up

He goes first an tries again to get up provoking a second AoO and again if you hit he fails to get up

Then you get your attack

A sesoned player might not reduce his BAB to low on the first two rolls so as to maintain the advantagous situation an AoO against a DC of 12 (say) with a +8mod means you need to roll 4 or more to hand out plenty of damage and keep the guy down.

Also I would feel it is fair to allow this because while you are going to do a Massive amount of damage the downside is that you suffer a huge penelty on your attack roll.

Furie said:
I'm not sure in what situations doing that would be advantageous, though; you'd be looking at a rather stiff penalty to your attack roll.
If you had surprise, your opponent was flatfooted, and you had a number of feats that raised your attack bonus anyway and/or a high ability modifier to attack. You might not do it everytime, but let's say for argument that you successfully feinted someone who didn't have uncanny dodge or relexive parry. The follow up attack could then, conceivably, be used combining the two feats.
Hmmm, yeah maybe you're right. Power Attack is definitely extremely useful in those situations, and I'd probably use it for as many points as I could afford. If I felt sure of hitting even with maxed out Power Attack, putting points into Combat Expertise could be a good idea.

Evil_Trevor said:
He uses his 'move' action to try to get up provoking an AoO if you hit he doesn't get up

He goes first an tries again to get up provoking a second AoO and again if you hit he fails to get up
I don't think getting hit by an AoO prevents you from completing your standing-up action. IOW, you get hit but your action isn't wasted, you'll end up on your feet.

Trodax said:
I'm not sure in what situations doing that would be advantageous, though; you'd be looking at a rather stiff penalty to your attack roll.

If your target was flat-footed, you could attack vs a DV10, then the penalty wouldn't be so harsh. You would also benefit from increased DV if you don't fall that opponent. You could use it with a feint as well.

You could also combine it with “reckless attack” sacrificing DV for a to hit bonus

Voltumna said:
When you use two feats that require to take an attack penalty that should not exceed your BAB, can the combined penalties of both feats exceed your BAB?
Yes, each feat is tracked independently so as long as neither one exceedes your BAB you are good. In fact the combined total could even exceed your total attack bonus if you wanted (and thus you would be attacking with a negative modifier)

Trodax said:
I'm not sure in what situations doing that would be advantageous, though; you'd be looking at a rather stiff penalty to your attack roll.
The strategy is called "All Power Attack All the Time", it hinges on the fact that a natural 20 is always a hit (a normal hit without the confirmation roll).

For the example from the first post, if the character were to PA for 12 and use CE for 12 then he would be adding +12 to dmg (+24 for a two handed weapon) and jacking up his DV by +12 (and while he's at it he may as well use Fighting Defensevly for another +2 DV). With any luck that would make him nearly imposible to hit. Now all he has to do is stand around and wait for that inevitible Nat 20 (a 5% chance every attack roll) and BAM! Massive damage. The plan is to outlast your opponent and put him down with one big hit.

Hope that helps.

Trodax said:
I'm not sure in what situations doing that would be advantageous, though; you'd be looking at a rather stiff penalty to your attack roll.
The strategy is called "All Power Attack All the Time", it hinges on the fact that a natural 20 is always a hit (a normal hit without the confirmation roll).

For the example from the first post, if the character were to PA for 12 and use CE for 12 then he would be adding +12 to dmg (+24 for a two handed weapon) and jacking up his DV by +12 (and while he's at it he may as well use Fighting Defensevly for another +2 DV). With any luck that would make him nearly imposible to hit. Now all he has to do is stand around and wait for that inevitible Nat 20 (a 5% chance every attack roll) and BAM! Massive damage. The plan is to outlast your opponent and put him down with one big hit.

Hope that helps.

argo said:
The strategy is called "All Power Attack All the Time", it hinges on the fact that a natural 20 is always a hit (a normal hit without the confirmation roll).
Oh, I see! What a sneaky way of fighting!

argo said:
For the example from the first post, if the character were to PA for 12 and use CE for 12 then he would be adding +12 to dmg (+24 for a two handed weapon) and jacking up his DV by +12
CE is restricted with a 5 point maximum, though. This is a very good restriction IMO, or it could potentially, as you say, make you almost impossible to hit.

Trodax said:
argo said:
For the example from the first post, if the character were to PA for 12 and use CE for 12 then he would be adding +12 to dmg (+24 for a two handed weapon) and jacking up his DV by +12
CE is restricted with a 5 point maximum, though. This is a very good restriction IMO, or it could potentially, as you say, make you almost impossible to hit.

Yeah you're right, I slaped that post out too fast.

... I also double-posted apparently. Not my day :roll:

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