MASSIVE DAMAGE & creatures.....

[LucaCherstich]

The Massive Damage rules are always been among the best improvements of d20 which Mongoose ever did.
However, the 2e Manual does not clearly state whether the rules apply also to the damage dealt to enemies other than humans.
I know that humans are 80% of the enemies in Conan, but if your barbarian just hits a mummy dealing 20 points of damage, you want to know whether the rules apply or not!

My doubts regard:

1) Undead. They are immune to critical damage and to sneak attaks. NO MENTION of Massive damage. DO they suffer it or not?

2) Demons. Similar considerations.

3) Large (and bigger) and Small (and smaller) creatures. You need 20 points of damage to do a massive wound to that Pictish warrior...what's the effect of the same wound to a Stegosaurus??? I think in that case one should think about Massive Damages of at least 30-50 points.... On the otehr hand killing a small viper should need 10-15 wounds...

4) I apply the massive Damage rules to ANY KIND of damage, not just combat wounds but also the damage done by Fire, Falling, Magic Spells, etc..... Do you do the same?

 

[Spongly]

I would argue anything immune to critical hits is also going to be immune to massive damage, since it cannot really "go into shock and die" since it isn't alive in the first place.

 

[Hervé]

I tend to agree with Spongly, though you can imagine that MD would represent smashing that freaking zombie to a pulp...

 

[flatscan]

1. This one is tough. Although NPCs generally can't go into negative HP anyhow the SRD specifically states undead are destroyed when they reach 0 HP. So even though you can't crit an undead I would think you could still deliver such a fearsome blow it could be destroyed by one attack with Power Attack and a greatsword.

2. I take this on a case by case basis. If the PC is using silver on a Black Fiend for example the MD rules would apply.

3. I agree the threshold should slide depending on the size of the creature.

4. Same here on what causes the damage. Sword, fire, falling, magic, can all force a MD save.

 

[Krushnak]

1/2. I give undead and most demons immunity to sneak attack but not critical hits and they are subject to MD saves like all other npc's.

3. The MD threshold in my games increases by 5 for every size step above medium and also decreases by 5 for every step below medium.

4. Everything except for non lethal damage inflicts the MD save, although sometimes i do ask for a save vs knocked out for non lethal damage over 20pts.

 

[LucaCherstich]

you can imagine that MD would represent smashing that freaking zombie to a pulp...

I'll possibly keep that rule, at least for medium-sized undead.
I think about REH's "Black Colossus" where the undead sorcerer Natohk/Thugra Khotan is killed by just ONE SINGLE mighty attack by Conan, with that sword piercing right through its black heart.
If that is not Massive Damage, I do not know what it is...
...and a d20 fanatic could suppose that Natohk lost all its power points before that duel (he casted that huge fire spell during the battle with the Khorajans and he is then abandoned by its camel-demon) and could not do any Defensive Blast...
On the other hand, I do no think you can still kill a Dinosaur with just a single attack (unless you are King Kong or Godzilla).... the fight between Conan and the "dragon" at the beginning of "Red Nails" does not end with a single blow....
So I'm still unsatisfied with Massive Damages on Large Creatures, but I think it is a perferct rule for smaller enemies.
Massive Damage is a good rule to give a "heroic feeling" to characters, on the other hand mighty villains should have a lot of means to avoid 20 points of damage (Good Defence values, Good DR, Defensive Blasts, Immunity to certain kinds of damage, Immunity to Criticals....) but if the PC can do 20 points of damage, I think this is a good opportunity to get a heroic scene with the mighty Hero dealing a lucky blow on the villain.
And remember that villains can still succeed in their Save rolls...

 

[Spectator]

MD another take:
I used to play Warhammer FRP back in the day. They had a system where if you rolled a D6 for DMG and scored a 6, then you could roll another D6 and if youscored ANOTHER 6, you could roll again, ad ifinitum...
What about taking the MD out of the equation and say if you roll a top 10% of your damage potential, the gods grace you with another weapon damage roll (minus Stregth, good looks, and other variables.
IE: If I Throndar the Barbarian I have a +8 Str Bonus and wield a Weapon causing D10 damage, and I use it two handed...
I roll to hit. I inflict +8STR +4(Two Hand) +10( I rolled a natural ten)= 22HP dmg.

Because I rolled a 10, I now get to roll another D10.
And if I get a natural 10, then I keep rolling.

So theoretically if Crom Smiles on my barbarian's dice rolls, uhh,ahh I mean his superior swordsmanship and smiles on him 1000 times more than others (10 to the power of 3 in terms of percentages) He gets to at least another 21 -29 points of damage on top of his original 22 hp.

I suppose if you wanted to be extra gory you could add the +4 Hp for two handed-ness in each time if you wanted to up the DMG and in theory f you wanted to really make bloody add the strength too.

My big grip is that Massive Damage RAW is too damn common for character 6th level and above who are in the martial classes.

 

[Hervé]

If that is not Massive Damage, I do not know what it is...

Many RPG engines are using deadly critical hit systems...

The way Thugra Kothan dies is more like a critical hit to me. A vicious blow in a vital area.

It's not like he didn't deserve it, anyway...

 

[LucaCherstich]

If that is not Massive Damage, I do not know what it is...

Many RPG engines are using deadly critical hit systems...

The way Thugra Kothan dies is more like a critical hit to me. A vicious blow in a vital area.

It's not like he didn't deserve it, anyway...

Or a Critical Hit which dealt Massive Damage!
I really like that rule but I'm also start thinking that undead usually have bad Fort saves....so they will all suffer that damage (and definitevely die)...
...Any "Official" explanation by "Mongoose authors"?

 

[Krushnak]

I'm also start thinking that undead usually have bad Fort saves....so they will all suffer that damage (and definitevely die)...

technically because undead have no constitution score they are immune to anything that requires a fort save, such as poisons and diseases. i give them a fort save against MD equal to their HD + STR or CHA whichever is higher.

 

[LucaCherstich]

I found an answer:

Conan - Bestiary of the Hyborian Age, page 165:

"... Undead are immune to poisons, diseases, critical hits, sneak attacks or death by massive damage. ..."

I still do not know why they did not put it also in the 2e core rules....

In any case, there is still a problem about Big Creatures & Massive Damage.

 

[Sutek]

Generally, I found that large or massive creatures also had FORT saves that didn't reflect thier CON directly.

What I decided was that if I were using a creature that had a disproportional FORT save like that, I'd simply add that FORT save ammount to it's MD number.

Take a look at the stone golem. It works pretty well.