Maneuver Drives but no grav plating

[Tom Kalbfus]

Or just delete the thread and go back to Mongoose Traveller, you remember that don't you Tom? It's what the forum is here for...

So your saying, if there is no artificial gravity, it is not Traveller? I distinguish the Traveller Game from the Traveller Setting. Just as Dungeons and Dragons can have multiple settings, so too can Traveller. I really haven't discussed and Star Frontiers rules here, Star Frontiers is an out of print game anyway, the setting or something like it could easily be recreated with the Traveller rule set. I don't know why you get so offended Hiro. Would you rather just talk about the same old stuff over and over again with established settings? Say does Emperor Strephron and a son or a daughter, for instance?

 

[Rick]

Go and check out Starfrontiersman if you think SF is dead and gone!
But, on this forum, Traveller 2300AD is a close match for what you are talking about - no AG, parallel decks, spin habitats and plenty of weightlessness. It's a great setting with a lower tech feel to it.

 

[Reynard]

Hiro, I have no problem discussing the topic. I was merely voicing my opinion that Tom's reference for an alternate form of AG was way over the top, not a statement to say it ain't totally welcomed here. I just caught me off guard by the scale.

 

[Anonymous]

Or just delete the thread and go back to Mongoose Traveller, you remember that don't you Tom? It's what the forum is here for...

So your saying, if there is no artificial gravity, it is not Traveller? I distinguish the Traveller Game from the Traveller Setting. Just as Dungeons and Dragons can have multiple settings, so too can Traveller. I really haven't discussed and Star Frontiers rules here, Star Frontiers is an out of print game anyway, the setting or something like it could easily be recreated with the Traveller rule set. I don't know why you get so offended Hiro. Would you rather just talk about the same old stuff over and over again with established settings? Say does Emperor Strephron and a son or a daughter, for instance?

I am no fan of the Third Imperium. It's a period sci-fi setting that has little allure for me, I've played a couple of games set in or after the 3I recently but am pretty much finished with it, tho it is funny to be mistaken for a Traveller Curmudgeon, it makes it clear to me that you're talking for the sake of talking and not really engaging the forum in a conversation.

2300 is more my cup of tea, I prefer my sci-fi a little harder.

I'm interested in seeing MgT develop as a game system separate from any one setting. At the moment it's still closely linked with Traveller's original 3I and for many that's where they want it to be. I'm fine with that being one of the settings, just not the one I want to play.

Most of your ideas seem to be talking for the sake of talking with this thread having little to do with MgT. You've referenced an out of print game and juxtaposed a ship design from the game to a classic Traveller ship. In all honesty, the idea of representing deck plans in 2D with an up and down for use in a zero G environment is daft. I get that we want to visualise our ideas but look at images from the ISS, tell me where is up? Is there a floor? No, there isn't.

Combat at the speeds (1% of C) you're talking about would be over in seconds with ships hurtling past each other, manoeuvring at such speeds with 1G of acceleration would be tiny changes in vector, you can't "dogfight" at 1%C.

The ideas are ludicrous.

There's no sarcasm in my post, it's just despair...

You can disagree with me if you like. Mostly just looking for something to talk about.

And therein lies the heart of the matter.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

Go and check out Starfrontiersman if you think SF is dead and gone!
But, on this forum, Traveller 2300AD is a close match for what you are talking about - no AG, parallel decks, spin habitats and plenty of weightlessness. It's a great setting with a lower tech feel to it.

Maybe so. I played it when I was a kid. the modules I am familiar with were the Volternus modules and the KnightHawks set, played all of them. Star Frontiers uses a d100 system, two ten sided dice for rolling percentage, its ability scores were also percentages, it played a lot like Dungeons and Dragons, the modules were fairly combat intensive, the characters you would generate were similar to mid-level D&D characters. The planet Volturnus was fairly detailed, at least the section that the adventures occured on, and the main arc of the adventure was to find a way off the planet while defeating the plans of the evil Sathar (wormlike aliens). the main deficiency of the game was that it lacked the means for the Referee to develop his own adventures, you only had alien creatures for the planet Volturnus, if you wanted to have adventures on another planet, there were no rules for creating your own creatures for that planet, there was no generation system for planets either, you were stuck with the ones on the Star Frontiers map. I played Knight Hawks, and that was mainly a space combat adventure, again fighting the evil Sathar but this time in space ships, we played a number of scenarios including a war, pirate attacks and so forth, but once we played through the published adventures, that was it. There was also two adventures set in the 2001 A Space Odyssey Universe, the Adventures basically recreated the movies 2001 An Space Odyssey and 2010 Odyssey Two. Traveller has more of the tools the Referee needs to create his own adventures, something I felt Star Frontiers lacked.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

Or just delete the thread and go back to Mongoose Traveller, you remember that don't you Tom? It's what the forum is here for...

So your saying, if there is no artificial gravity, it is not Traveller? I distinguish the Traveller Game from the Traveller Setting. Just as Dungeons and Dragons can have multiple settings, so too can Traveller. I really haven't discussed and Star Frontiers rules here, Star Frontiers is an out of print game anyway, the setting or something like it could easily be recreated with the Traveller rule set. I don't know why you get so offended Hiro. Would you rather just talk about the same old stuff over and over again with established settings? Say does Emperor Strephron and a son or a daughter, for instance?

I am no fan of the Third Imperium. It's a period sci-fi setting that has little allure for me, I've played a couple of games set in or after the 3I recently but am pretty much finished with it, tho it is funny to be mistaken for a Traveller Curmudgeon, it makes it clear to me that you're talking for the sake of talking and not really engaging the forum in a conversation.

2300 is more my cup of tea, I prefer my sci-fi a little harder.

I'm interested in seeing MgT develop as a game system separate from any one setting. At the moment it's still closely linked with Traveller's original 3I and for many that's where they want it to be. I'm fine with that being one of the settings, just not the one I want to play.

Most of your ideas seem to be talking for the sake of talking with this thread having little to do with MgT. You've referenced an out of print game and juxtaposed a ship design from the game to a classic Traveller ship. In all honesty, the idea of representing deck plans in 2D with an up and down for use in a zero G environment is daft. I get that we want to visualise our ideas but look at images from the ISS, tell me where is up? Is there a floor? No, there isn't.

Combat at the speeds (1% of C) you're talking about would be over in seconds with ships hurtling past each other, manoeuvring at such speeds with 1G of acceleration would be tiny changes in vector, you can't "dogfight" at 1%C.

There is no dog fighting in space period, in most realistic scenarios you couldn't even see the enemy spaceships you are fighting, basically space combat is point and shoot, there are no barrel rolls, there are no loop de loops, no chasing the other guys tail. You would not fight at 1% of the speed of light, not relative to the other starship anyway. I hate to break this to you but most standard Traveller Starships can easily reach 1% of the speed of light with their maneuver drives, it only takes 3.5 days of accelerating at 1 g in one direction. you have to slow down when approaching a planet if you want to land on it, it is when you are close to a planet that the bad guys are most likely to attack.

The ideas are ludicrous.

There's no sarcasm in my post, it's just despair...

You can disagree with me if you like. Mostly just looking for something to talk about.

And therein lies the heart of the matter.

But aren't we all? What are you here for? I like to talk about something, and here I talk about Traveller, it is a game, not serious business. I like to create, I wrote up a setting and submitted it, and sometimes after creating something I get bored and take a break, I like to converse about various subjects and get some ideas, and also talking a bunch of people and hearing out their ideas is very entertaining. It is a game after all, we play it for fun! Did you think there was some other purpose?

 

[Anonymous]

Hiro, I have no problem discussing the topic. I was merely voicing my opinion that Tom's reference for an alternate form of AG was way over the top, not a statement to say it ain't totally welcomed here. I just caught me off guard by the scale.

When we choose the settings we want to game in, we decide how big a hand we want to wave. Even a relatively near future setting like 2300 has massive assumptions that we choose to adopt so that we can agree on the setting. Consensual hallucination as Mr Gibson would have it...

To argue/discuss about which assumption is less of an assumption is farcical.

That's not a dig at you Reynard, I just see a lot of Tom's posts making such sweeping claims as if there was a right about any of this.

It's all fiction and bravo for that!

 

[Anonymous]

But aren't we all? What are you here for? I like to talk about something, and here I talk about Traveller, it is a game, not serious business. I like to create, I wrote up a setting and submitted it, and sometimes after creating something I get bored and take a break, I like to converse about various subjects and get some ideas, and also talking a bunch of people and hearing out their ideas is very entertaining. It is a game after all, we play it for fun! Did you think there was some other purpose?

Indeed, my trouble is that your posts cause me to bang my head on a brick wall.

I'll put you back on my foes list and ignore you, it'll keep the walls of my apartment free of holes.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

Hiro, I have no problem discussing the topic. I was merely voicing my opinion that Tom's reference for an alternate form of AG was way over the top, not a statement to say it ain't totally welcomed here. I just caught me off guard by the scale.

When we choose the settings we want to game in, we decide how big a hand we want to wave. Even a relatively near future setting like 2300 has massive assumptions that we choose to adopt so that we can agree on the setting. Consensual hallucination as Mr Gibson would have it...

To argue/discuss about which assumption is less of an assumption is farcical.

That's not a dig at you Reynard, I just see a lot of Tom's posts making such sweeping claims as if there was a right about any of this.

It's all fiction and bravo for that!

What is the difference in the assumptions made in this picture,

and this one? Is one closer to reality than the other? Does it matter?
I think 2001 A Space Odyssey is more of a window on the future than Star Wars, though both are fantasies more or less. One movie takes its science more seriously than the other where its just window dressing for a fairy tale. That is all I'm saying.

 

[Rick]

I think 2001 A Space Odyssey is more of a window on the future than Star Wars, though both are fantasies more or less. One movie takes its science more seriously than the other where its just window dressing for a fairy tale. That is all I'm saying.

Good point. ALL movies use it as window dressing for telling the story, whatever the genre - and so do Rpg's. The genre you choose for your adventure dictates what window dressing you use and the ratio of 'believable handwavium' to 'unbelievable handwavium' - and that is purely a subjective choice - as you can probably tell from the discussions! Everybody has their own level at which they 'buy into' the window dressing, no-one is incorrect in their choice, just different. Let's accept those differences, not try and change anyones mind, and carry on putting up informative posts.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

I think 2001 A Space Odyssey is more of a window on the future than Star Wars, though both are fantasies more or less. One movie takes its science more seriously than the other where its just window dressing for a fairy tale. That is all I'm saying.

Good point. ALL movies use it as window dressing for telling the story, whatever the genre - and so do Rpg's. The genre you choose for your adventure dictates what window dressing you use and the ratio of 'believable handwavium' to 'unbelievable handwavium' - and that is purely a subjective choice - as you can probably tell from the discussions! Everybody has their own level at which they 'buy into' the window dressing, no-one is incorrect in their choice, just different. Let's accept those differences, not try and change anyones mind, and carry on putting up informative posts.

I kind of think Hiro wanted to be offended by something, if he didn't like the subject matter he didn't have to reply. There are a lot of threads I'm not interested in, do I ask people to delete their threads because I don't agree with them or find them interesting? Some people are too easily offended! I just gave my opinion, I gave my reasons for that opinion, that is all. Hiro could have lurked, he didn't have to reply at all instead of making his big show about being offended, and putting me on his foes list, I don't know why people do that? Does he really think I care? If he wanted he could have done the same thing without mentioning it and not reply at all, that would have been just fine.

You know, I kind of want to live long enough to see something like 2001 A Space Odyssey in my lifetime, you know the spaceships, the moonbase, and the space station. To Hiro, it is all fantasy, might as well be Lord of the Rings. I kind of prefer the science fiction to be as close as possible to something that could really happen. You know I was born 1 year before 2001 A Space Odyssey came out, the movie was a sort of prediction of what may come to pass by 2001, that hasn't happened yet, but I expect that I'll have another 30 years left in my life, so we'll see is there will be a wheel space station, a Moon Base, and manned missions to Jupiter and Saturn before I expire, it would be nice if it does. I know I will never live long enough to see artificial gravity that you can switch on and off at the press of a button, I'll never see dogfights in space, or a light saber, that is just Hollywood. That is all I'm saying. Sorry Hiro took it the wrong way, I just can't figure him out.

 

[Anonymous]

I kind of think Hiro wanted to be offended by something, if he didn't like the subject matter he didn't have to reply. There are a lot of threads I'm not interested in, do I ask people to delete their threads because I don't agree with them or find them interesting? Some people are too easily offended! I just gave my opinion, I gave my reasons for that opinion, that is all. Hiro could have lurked, he didn't have to reply at all instead of making his big show about being offended, and putting me on his foes list, I don't know why people do that? Does he really think I care? If he wanted he could have done the same thing without mentioning it and not reply at all, that would have been just fine.

<snip>

Sorry Hiro took it the wrong way, I just can't figure him out.

I am not offended. As you say, you can't figure me out.

You have made comments that are offensive as measured by others, not by me. The offensive words were not in this thread but in others that were seen fit to be closed by Alex Greene.

That you haven't been banned by the admins here shows them in a poor light. I guess they're too busy running a company.

The principle reason for using the ignore feature on you is the amount of space your posts ramble on for. You have a remarkable talent for taking a thread of at a tangent and twisting it to your ideas that are largely irrelevant to the subject. In the absence of a suitable smilie, yes, that was sarcasm, just so you know.

Obviously I still read your posts so I can reply to them. Yes, you're right, I could lurk and ignore them but your posts drag the quality of the forum down and it is with this that I take issue.

Whatever merit some of your posts may offer is outweighed by the bigotry of others.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

I kind of think Hiro wanted to be offended by something, if he didn't like the subject matter he didn't have to reply. There are a lot of threads I'm not interested in, do I ask people to delete their threads because I don't agree with them or find them interesting? Some people are too easily offended! I just gave my opinion, I gave my reasons for that opinion, that is all. Hiro could have lurked, he didn't have to reply at all instead of making his big show about being offended, and putting me on his foes list, I don't know why people do that? Does he really think I care? If he wanted he could have done the same thing without mentioning it and not reply at all, that would have been just fine.

<snip>

Sorry Hiro took it the wrong way, I just can't figure him out.

I am not offended. As you say, you can't figure me out.

You have made comments that are offensive as measured by others, not by me. The offensive words were not in this thread but in others that were seen fit to be closed by Alex Greene.

Well, if they were offended, why didn't they come out and say so? Why do they need you to tell me how offended they were? As I said before, some people are easily offended, you say the slightest thing and they get offended, who's problem is that? Mind giving me an example? I don't believe I offended anyone here. No grav plating, oh how offensive, not the usual Star Wars effects, that is a critique, not an offense.

That you haven't been banned by the admins here shows them in a poor light. I guess they're too busy running a company.

Are you in charge of banning people?

The principle reason for using the ignore feature on you is the amount of space your posts ramble on for. You have a remarkable talent for taking a thread of at a tangent and twisting it to your ideas that are largely irrelevant to the subject. In the absence of a suitable smilie, yes, that was sarcasm, just so you know.

Well this is a thread I started, and here you are twisting it to a critique of me! how is that not different from what you accuse me of doing? Nobody's perfect, and I'm sorry I'm not perfect enough for you. If you start eliminating people who aren't perfect, pretty soon you have nobody on these threads!

Obviously I still read your posts so I can reply to them. Yes, you're right, I could lurk and ignore them but your posts drag the quality of the forum down and it is with this that I take issue.

Well I didn't know that maintaining the quality of the forums was my responsibility, I thought it was the sum total of everyone who participates in it.

Whatever merit some of your posts may offer is outweighed by the bigotry of others.

And you just enjoy putting people down don't you, and how is that not worse than bigotry? By the way, what bigotry are you talking about, and why do you bring that irrelevant discussion to this thread here? All I can tell is I'm just having fun and your here to spoil it! You pretty much fit the definition of a cyber-bully, I think. I figure I have to get this all out, just in case you are in charge of something and have me banned.

 

[AndrewW]

Ok, keep it to Traveller not attacks on other users.

 

[dragoner]

It's all fantasy. Traveller vs 2300 is kind of a non starter, as both games are created by the same people. Both are majorly involved in their settings, as far as "technology", that is more a word from advertisers, rather than hard science. Neither do it well, but the writers of the games aren't hard science types but liberal arts types.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

Ok, keep it to Traveller not attacks on other users.

I am done with Hiro, if he can't ignore me, then I'll ignore him!

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

It's all fantasy. Traveller vs 2300 is kind of a non starter, as both games are created by the same people. Both are majorly involved in their settings, as far as "technology", that is more a word from advertisers, rather than hard science. Neither do it well, but the writers of the games aren't hard science types but liberal arts types.

There is a set of hard science fiction technologies that fall within the known laws of physics. Traveller at least has spaceships that accelerate, rather than "fly" through space the way Star Wars space ships do. I created this thread because I much admired the Star Frontiers floorplans, I thought they were quite unique as far as science fiction role playing games went, I think they can be adapted to Traveller.

 

[dragoner]

Hard science involves empiricism, one reason disciplines such as astronomy fall outside the definition. Starships as such, are magic carpets, traveller has a tendency to take artistic license with them, oh well. I'm not going to turn my eye towards them and see them for all their faults, that would ruin it. But arguing that any of them is more realistic is silly; use the SF ones if you want.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

Hard science involves empiricism, one reason disciplines such as astronomy fall outside the definition. Starships as such, are magic carpets, traveller has a tendency to take artistic license with them, oh well. I'm not going to turn my eye towards them and see them for all their faults, that would ruin it. But arguing that any of them is more realistic is silly; use the SF ones if you want.

Only the FTL variety, Voyager 2 is a starship of sorts. A starship is simply a spaceship that leaves the Solar System. If your campaign is based in one Solar System, all you have to do is make that Solar System interesting, and you'll have no need of FTL travel.

 

[atpollard]

Since this has had a month to cool off ...
... my turn to stir the pot.

I like the idea of a 'tail-sitter' that uses 1G constant acceleration to simulate gravity ... it appeals to my inner gear-head.
What I am at a loss to understand is the strong drive for streamlined 'aircraft' forms in space.

If I were going to create a ship that used acceleration for gravity, I would not start with an airplane sitting on its back and build a 15 story 6mx6m flying mini-skyscraper.
Why not start with something closer to the Jupiter from 'Lost in Space', place the engines in the center and build a two-level living torus around the central drives?
The ship doesn't fly like a Frisbee (edge forward), it flies just like it takes off and lands (straight up and down).

This assumes, of course, that the same ship flies from surface to orbit and from world to world.
I personally think that this is a bad assumption, but a logical result of the Traveller magic grav drive.
It might have been interesting to reverse the JD and MD fuel requirements.
Imagine a universe where travel from star to star requires 1% of the ship per Jump number and travel from surface to orbit requires 10% of the ship per trip.
Suddenly a big unstreamlined ship in orbit and a small streamlined shuttle to the surface make a lot more economic sense.
Even something like a beanstalk might be worth looking at.
IMhO, the universe just got a whole lot more interesting ...

... but in Traveller, it will always be easier and cheaper to just land the ship or ... if you really must ... buy a used vacc-suit and air raft to fly to orbit all on your own.
[sigh, the road not taken]