Mainframe Computer

[MasterGwydion]

Can someone explain to Me why Mainframe Computers stop at TL-7 in the CSC? Can I take two Core/40 computers and stick them together in a Mainframe? Specially since the base Bandwidth of 40 is already way beyond the capabilities of TL-15. It seems that the section on Mainframe computers is poorly written.

 

[Limpin Legin]

My original understanding was that a Mainframe is a big 'bucket-like' centralised computer with a few dumb terminal(s) and without comms. In Traveller CRB, dumb terminals are TL 7, and comms are TL 8+. So 'Mainframe' becomes obsolte at TL 8+, by definition.

In the real-world I'm reasonably sure 'Mainframe' gets replaced by comms-friendly distributed architectures, such as client-server, or data centre, or cloud-based edge or fog computers. In parallel architectures, they get replaced by computing clusters or supercomputers. And so on. In fiction, you want ship's brains, etc, at higher tech levels. So I suspect the definition of 'Mainframe' became an all but obsolete architectural definition, beyond TL 7, because innovation into comms and/or parallelism made the 'big bucket' idea unfeasible in all areas except banking and other fault-tollerent applications.

 

[Geir]

My original understanding was that a Mainframe is a big 'bucket-like' centralised computer with a few dumb terminal(s) and without comms. In Traveller, dumb terminals are TL 7, and comms are TL 8+. In the real-world I'm reasonably sure 'Mainframe' gets replaced by comms-friendly distributed architectures, such as client-server, or data centre, or cloud-based edge or fog computers. In parallel architectures, they get replaced by computing clusters or supercomputers. And so on. In fiction, you want ship's brains, etc, at higher tech levels. So I suspect the definition of 'Mainframe' became an all but obsolete architectural definition, beyond TL 7, because innovation into comms and/or parallelism made the 'big bucket' idea unfeasible.

Yes, that. Kicked my last mainframe in the butt in 2003 (it was supposed to be retired as part of the Y2K project, but what can you do...).
Mid-sized computers are intended to be what you'd use either singly or in clusters to get better capability . Sort of like a data centre to make those pesky chat bots run their random word generators.

By TL9 I'm sure we'll have it as wrong as Traveller did in the '70s.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Yes, that. Kicked my last mainframe in the butt in 2003 (it was supposed to be retired as part of the Y2K project, but what can you do...).
Mid-sized computers are intended to be what you'd use either singly or in clusters to get better capability . Sort of like a data centre to make those pesky chat bots run their random word generators.

By TL9 I'm sure we'll have it as wrong as Traveller did in the '70s.

So, I guess the question is can Computers no longer be linked together for greater processing power? Or does this mean that the most powerful Computer in Charted Space at TL-15 is the Core/100?

 

[Arkathan]

My take is that for game balance, you can only have one effective active computer on a ship for determining the number of programs you could run at one time during a battle. With the computers not taking up any tonnage, it becomes a disgustingly rich kids are more shootier equation, otherwise.
But a planet could have a distributed network with nodes of Core/100's running all manner of infrastructure, comms, traffic, threat detection/defense and life support.

 

[Condottiere]

Use chiplets.

And memory.

Lots of memory.

 

[Limpin Legin]

So, I guess the question is can Computers no longer be linked together for greater processing power? Or does this mean that the most powerful Computer in Charted Space at TL-15 is the Core/100?

Technically, linking computers together monolithically is not often considered as advantageous as it was first thought. Simply because monolithic processing means all input and output processing needs to be carried out at the same location. So, while it is possible to link computing power together in a monolithic mainframe, it is not considered commercially advantageous to do so.

Maybe it is like the way Steam Trains get superseded by modern Diesel and Electric Trains. Once investment in modern trains begins, then investment in steam diminishes rapidly, to the point where new steam ideas are no longer built anymore.

To link computers in parallel for more power, go the computer 1 + ... + computer N -> cluster computing -> Parallelism -> Supercomputer architectural design (computers) route, which, while Traveller represents the fate of mainframes well, I don't think the game introduces these more modern architectures as options, as viable replacements. But I haven't read the CSC yet. I'm only supplying a discussion viewpoint based upon what's been happening in the real-world over the last few decades.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Technically, linking computers together monolithically is not often considered as advantageous as it was first thought. Simply because monolithic processing means all input and output processing needs to be carried out at the same location. So, while it is possible to link computing power together in a monolithic mainframe, it is not considered commercially advantageous to do so.

Maybe it is like the way Steam Trains get superseded by modern Diesel and Electric Trains. Once investment in modern trains begins, then investment in steam diminishes rapidly, to the point where new steam ideas are no longer built anymore.

To link computers in parallel for more power, go the computer 1 + ... + computer N -> cluster computing -> Parallelism -> Supercomputer architectural design (computers) route, which, while Traveller represents the fate of mainframes well, I don't think the game introduces these more modern architectures as options, as viable replacements. But I haven't read the CSC yet. I'm only supplying a discussion viewpoint based upon what's been happening in the real-world over the last few decades.

Heck, you could even still call it a Mainframe eventhough that is not technically what it is, and long as it has the same function as the Mainframes in the book minus the TL thing. It's not like Bandwidth is actually bandwidth anyhow. lol

 

[Limpin Legin]

Heck, you could even still call it a Mainframe eventhough that is not technically what it is, and long as it has the same function as the Mainframes in the book minus the TL thing. It's not like Bandwidth is actually bandwidth anyhow. lol

Yes, definitions blur somewhat if you pursue the cluster/supercomputer capabilities. Not so much ambiguity if you compare it with a distributed computer system.

 

[metlk]

The easy route for me is to stop referring to a "Computer" as a single machine but is actually already a cluster. A TL9 computer/10 is using every unoccupied place in the ship for terminals, wiring, and processing systems scattered throughout. There's nothing to be "doubled" nor would there be any space to fit a replica of the same web of systems. You have to go up a tech level in order to downsize all of the various components enough to cram a bit more processing power into it. Think of computers over the last 50 years. At one time, they took up an entire room. Now that room can fit in a handheld device. But an entire room of computers today still can only physically hold so much computing power. In another 50 years (or sooner) today's room will be in a smaller device and new tech will fill the room. The difference is today we would just build a new room. In Traveller though, that's not an option. At the end of the day, it's a game and limits have to be imposed somehow. So my theory works for me.

 

[MasterGwydion]

The easy route for me is to stop referring to a "Computer" as a single machine but is actually already a cluster. A TL9 computer/10 is using every unoccupied place in the ship for terminals, wiring, and processing systems scattered throughout. There's nothing to be "doubled" nor would there be any space to fit a replica of the same web of systems. You have to go up a tech level in order to downsize all of the various components enough to cram a bit more processing power into it. Think of computers over the last 50 years. At one time, they took up an entire room. Now that room can fit in a handheld device. But an entire room of computers today still can only physically hold so much computing power. In another 50 years (or sooner) today's room will be in a smaller device and new tech will fill the room. The difference is today we would just build a new room. In Traveller though, that's not an option. At the end of the day, it's a game and limits have to be imposed somehow. So my theory works for me.

So, build a second room. Or in your starship, add tonnage of Computers. Simply add more clusters.

 

[Condottiere]

(Interstellar) cloud computing.

 

[Limpin Legin]

(Interstellar) cloud computing.

That surely would be Nebulae Computing since Nebulae is Latin for 'fog' or 'cloud'. Cloud Computing refers to a data storage solution that relies upon electronic communications. However, in the Official Traveller Universe, FTL electronic communications has not been discovered, hence Nebulae Computing (to mean Cloud Computing between the stars that are many Parsecs away) would be impossible to achieve within reasonable computer-to-computer data latency time-scales.

 

[Condottiere]

Latency sux.

There might be some queries and functions that can't be done locally, so you send a request to a central, say, subsector, hub.

Two months later, a data packet returns.

 

[Limpin Legin]

Latency sux.

There might be some queries and functions that can't be done locally, so you send a request to a central, say, subsector, hub.

Two months later, a data packet returns.

Yes, and although that functionality would likely be a chore entertainment-wise, it could represent a significant timeframe in terms of game dynamics.

In computing terms, *latency* is computer & communication encumbrance .

 

[Condottiere]

The way I see it, there are going to be a lot of queries, and the system is likely automated, with filters picking out those that are sus.

Entertainmentwise, if you don't need an immediate response, you could torrent.

 

[Limpin Legin]

The way I see it, there are going to be a lot of queries, and the system is likely automated, with filters picking out those that are sus.

Entertainmentwise, if you don't need an immediate response, you could torrent.

And how would you implement the filter picking infrastructure?

 

[Condottiere]

Probably, the same way it's done today.

All information traffic is funnelled to nexuses that parses each data packet.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Only because quantum entanglement at parsec-level distances isn't a thing in Traveller. lol

 

[Sigtrygg]

You can't transfer information via quantum entanglement.