Looking for clarification on Fabricators / Manufacturing

[Sageryne]

Hi all,

Questions on Fabricators:

Looking at the fabricators in the Central Supply Catalog, up to TL17, they produce products at TL (of the fabricator) minus 2. The "Enhanced Fabricator" is 'first available' at TL13. My question is, if you build an Enhanced Fabricator at TL-15, can it produce TL-13 items (two TLs below the level the enhanced fabricator was built at) or is it limited to TL-11 (two TLs below the level the enhanced fabricator is first available)?

Are there any limits to the size of a fabricator (and thus the items it is fabricating)? For example, if you had a HUGE enhanced fabricator, could you manufacture starship manoeuvre and jump drives (they are complex electronics)?

Are there any limits to the complexity of the items being fabricated? Can you build starship scale computers?

The text says "A standard starship workshop can accommodate up to 100 chamber litres of fabrication chambers, with large workshops aboard capital ships containing extremely large custom units." I am assuming by that comment that there is no real upper limit on how large of a custom fabrication chamber you could build.

Questions on Manufacturing:

High Guard has rules for Manufacturing Plants on Space Stations. Assuming you have the room, is there any reason you could not put a manufacturing plant on a starship?

An Advanced Manufacturing Plant is available at TL10, but if you build an Advanced Manufacturing Plant at TL15, then by definition, can it produce TL15 items?

Purpose of these questions:

The reason I am asking these questions is that I am working on a portable shipyard. To function effectively, it will need a supply of parts and materials. My thought is that it travels with a refinery/smelter ship with mining drones to produce refined materials, and a manufacturing ship to turn those raw materials into ship components.

This is not intended to be cost-effective. This is intended as a mobile naval repair depot capable of doing battle damage repairs and overhauls. It travels a few systems behind the fleet which means damaged ships don't need to travel long distances to get repairs.

I believe this is the only way something like the Zhodani Core Expeditions could function, by bringing their shipyard with them.

The entire concept is based on the floating drydocks the US Navy built and used during World War II:

I envision every Depot in the Third Imperium would have the equivalent of a "portable Class A shipyard" (or more than one), which would follow the fleet. It wouldn't need to be terribly fast. It wouldn't be armed or armoured. But, it would eliminate the need to capture and hold Class A or B starports.

The manufacturing ships could be configured to build new fighters, missiles, torpedoes, sand canisters, or any other consumable. This would reduce the need for long supply lines. They would also minimize the amount of spare parts the fleet needed to keep on hand, and make it much easier to use fleets composed of many different tech levels and manufacturers. All you need is the files with the specifications for all the part of all the possible different ships in your fleet, and the manufacturing ship will make the parts to order.

Thoughts?

- Kerry

 

[Terry Mixon]

Hi all,

Questions on Fabricators:

Looking at the fabricators in the Central Supply Catalog, up to TL17, they produce products at TL (of the fabricator) minus 2. The "Enhanced Fabricator" is 'first available' at TL13. My question is, if you build an Enhanced Fabricator at TL-15, can it produce TL-13 items (two TLs below the level the enhanced fabricator was built at) or is it limited to TL-11 (two TLs below the level the enhanced fabricator is first available)?

Yes. An enhanced fabricator built at TL15 could fabricate TL13 goods.

Are there any limits to the size of a fabricator (and thus the items it is fabricating)? For example, if you had a HUGE enhanced fabricator, could you manufacture starship manoeuvre and jump drives (they are complex electronics)?

No limit other than cost.

Are there any limits to the complexity of the items being fabricated? Can you build starship scale computers?

Just the limits on the fabricators themselves. The less advanced models have restrictions on the complexity of things like robotic brains.

The text says "A standard starship workshop can accommodate up to 100 chamber litres of fabrication chambers, with large workshops aboard capital ships containing extremely large custom units." I am assuming by that comment that there is no real upper limit on how large of a custom fabrication chamber you could build.

No limit other than cost. An external fabricator might be more cost effective, even for building ships.

Questions on Manufacturing:

High Guard has rules for Manufacturing Plants on Space Stations. Assuming you have the room, is there any reason you could not put a manufacturing plant on a starship?

No reason you couldn’t. I have.

An Advanced Manufacturing Plant is available at TL10, but if you build an Advanced Manufacturing Plant at TL15, then by definition, can it produce TL15 items?

I believe so, yes.

Purpose of these questions:

The reason I am asking these questions is that I am working on a portable shipyard. To function effectively, it will need a supply of parts and materials. My thought is that it travels with a refinery/smelter ship with mining drones to produce refined materials, and a manufacturing ship to turn those raw materials into ship components.

This is not intended to be cost-effective. This is intended as a mobile naval repair depot capable of doing battle damage repairs and overhauls. It travels a few systems behind the fleet which means damaged ships don't need to travel long distances to get repairs.

I believe this is the only way something like the Zhodani Core Expeditions could function, by bringing their shipyard with them.

The entire concept is based on the floating drydocks the US Navy built and used during World War II:

I envision every Depot in the Third Imperium would have the equivalent of a "portable Class A shipyard" (or more than one), which would follow the fleet. It wouldn't need to be terribly fast. It wouldn't be armed or armoured. But, it would eliminate the need to capture and hold Class A or B starports.

The manufacturing ships could be configured to build new fighters, missiles, torpedoes, sand canisters, or any other consumable. This would reduce the need for long supply lines. They would also minimize the amount of spare parts the fleet needed to keep on hand, and make it much easier to use fleets composed of many different tech levels and manufacturers. All you need is the files with the specifications for all the part of all the possible different ships in your fleet, and the manufacturing ship will make the parts to order.

Thoughts?

- Kerry

I like it and look forward to seeing your vision.

 

[mavikfelna]

Just a quick note, at TL15 you can build an EARLY PROTOTYPE Advanced Fabricator. They are ungodly expensive and quirky but if you're a navy ship yard that needs to build TL15 parts and you can absorb the expense, go for it. Also, use an external fabricator, for cost but also to allow any size part. The only thing it can't do is organics.

 

[rinku]

I would also note that all fabricators require a supply of appropriate raw materials, although this becomes less problematic at TL17 and goes away when it's an energy to matter process at some ultra-tech level. What's appropriate is left to the Referee to rule on, but these machines aren't shown to be transmuting elements until ultratech levels. Certainly not at TL15. And the elements would have to be in a usable form that can be stored.

So it's NEVER just a matter of building a lesser fabricator with a better one before that point. Those raw materials need need to be prepared by some means, and it's likely that normal industrial ones remain the most cost effective; if a TL15 fabricator needs iron, it's highly unlikely to be able to purify it from haematite itself, or indeed convert a steel girder into printable stock. More likely that you'll need to fill up the Fe bin with iron powder (sealed to avoid oxidation), or that the fabricator might process ground up rust for its iron and oxygen requirements.

A clever fabricator design might use raw material molecules that can be easily split into various other molecules that it needs.

And of course, a fabricator should be able to create simple machines that can do the refining in the normal way. A fab cannot drive a nail into a plank. But it can print out a hammer (and a nail... and maybe the plank). It may not be able to directly turn ore into metal... but it can use its stock of prepared metal to make a smelter that can.

And, obviously, you could have combined smelter-fabricator setups. But that's an extra.

There's also the razor blade principle, embraced by the home printing industry. Who's making money selling printers? The profit is in the consumables!

"Ugh. Fabricator's run out of silicon again."

"Weren't you fabricating wooden chairs?"

"Yeah, but you know how it is. Fab won't work if any of the vats are empty. And it's crypto locked to Ling Standard ones."

 

[Sageryne]

I would also note that all fabricators require a supply of appropriate raw materials, although this becomes less problematic at TL17 and goes away when it's an energy to matter process at some ultra-tech level. What's appropriate is left to the Referee to rule on, but these machines aren't shown to be transmuting elements until ultratech levels. Certainly not at TL15. And the elements would have to be in a usable form that can be stored.

So it's NEVER just a matter of building a lesser fabricator with a better one before that point. Those raw materials need need to be prepared by some means, likely normal industrial ones remain the most cost effective; if a TL15 fabricator needs iron, it's highly unlikely to be able to purify it from haematite itself, or indeed convert a steel girder into printable stock. More likely that you'll need to fill up the Fe bin with iron powder (sealed to avoid oxidation), or that the fabricator might process ground up rust for its iron and oxygen requirements.

A clever fabricator design might use raw material molecules that can be easily split into various other molecules that it needs.

As mentioned in my original post, in addition to a manufacturing ship, I intend for it to be paired up with a mineral refinery / smelter ship. That vessel would use mining drones to collect the necessary asteroids. The mineral refinery would refine them into pure ores. Then, the smelter would further refine them in the necessary raw materials to supply the manufacturing ship.

 

[rinku]

Yeah, I slipped back into the general fabricator discussion... your original setup is solid. Any serious manufacturing facility will be equipped with methods that can take the raw material and process it all the way to finished product. Some parts of that will be fabricators, others more traditional industrial processes. It may well be more efficient to cast hull plates than to print them, as an example, but the molds to cast them from might be themselves be fabricated, and recyled into new molds as needed. Some processes may involve manufacturing techniques that simply aren't a fabricator job (we know the TL15 ones can't do superdense, as an example). And there may be several TYPES of specialist fabricator at work, again for efficiency reasons. And that's what a manufacturing plant is.

Making your own ordnance is eminently reasonable at TL13+. It's conceivable that fabricator built missiles might be slightly inferior than ones made using other processes... but near enough is probably good enough, especially if the real world difference is too slight to be expressed in Traveller space combat terms.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Yeah, I slipped back into the general fabricator discussion... your original setup is solid. Any serious manufacturing facility will be equipped with methods that can take the raw material and process it all the way to finished product. Some parts of that will be fabricators, others more traditional industrial processes. It may well be more efficient to cast hull plates than to print them, as an example, but the molds to cast them from might be themselves be fabricated, and recyled into new molds as needed. Some processes may involve manufacturing techniques that simply aren't a fabricator job (we know the TL15 ones can't do superdense, as an example). And there may be several TYPES of specialist fabricator at work, again for efficiency reasons. And that's what a manufacturing plant is.

Making your own ordnance is eminently reasonable at TL13+. It's conceivable that fabricator built missiles might be slightly inferior than ones made using other processes... but near enough is probably good enough, especially if the real world difference is too slight to be expressed in Traveller space combat terms.

Geir told me that fabricating superdense comes at TL19 with the Superior fabricator.

Both it and the TL15 Advanced version use nanorobots to put everything together, and to take it apart as the deconstruction chamber combines with the fabricator at TL15.

You might be able to put unprocessed raw materials in one of these, have it create its own feed stock via deconstruction, and then make something with the resultant feedstock. That’s how I treat them at TL15+ anyway.

I mentioned that to him as well, and I think he agreed with the ability to do that. At the very least, he didn’t call me crazy.

 

[Sageryne]

My thought was if you made the mobile shipyard, manufacturing/fabricator vessel and mineral refinery/smelter all at TL15, then the mobile shipyard could maintain the fleet at TL15. Most items on a TL15 starship are less than TL15, with the exception of:

- Bonded superdense armour (TL14)...though many Third Imperium ships do use Crystaliron (TL10)
- Jump-5 of -6 drives...though most Third Imperium ships use Jump-4 which is TL13
- TL15 fusion plants....this is probably the most common TL15 item in any Third Imperium ship
- Computer/30 or /35, Core/90 or /100....
- Advanced Sensors
- Small Repulsor Bays
- TL14 Advanced Missiles
- TL14 Advanced torpedoes
- Type III point defence weapons
- TL15 Adjustable hulls
- Military Countermeasures Suite
- TL14 Life Scanner Analysis Suite
- Advanced Forced Linkage Apparatus

Looking at this list, I think the only item that is actually widely used on multiple vessels are the TL15 fusion plants. If the manufacturing plant can build those (and perhaps advanced missiles/torpedoes) then fabricators producing TL13 items could supply almost anything else required by a navy ship.

This could explain using Crystaliron even after bonded superdense is available...field repairability.

Even with that, you could have a dedicated manufacturing ship that could make bonded superdense plates in the field.

If you watch the video I linked in the first post, the Japanese estimated that the floating drydocks the US Navy deployed to atolls close to the front increased the US Navy's effective strength by a factor of 3, simply because damaged ships could be swiftly repaired close to the front lines instead of being taken out of the fight for months while they sailed back to the west coast of the US for heavy repairs.

This becomes even more critical in Traveller type combat. If a ship is damaged, it might not be able to jump a dozen jumps back to a Class A or B starport (if there even is an intact one in the area). If the shipyard itself is mobile, it can be brought in to the system where the battle happened and repair the vessels in situ.

 

[rinku]

Oh, totally. Being able to extract the raw materials and turn them unto spares on the spot is a logistics dream.

The main reason not to would be timeliness. If rocks -> spares takes significantly longer than shipping spares to the mobile facility it may not be used by something like a navy, although a commercial concern would be looking more at costliness.

As a point militarily, a forward repair facility has different vulnerabilities depending on how it gets its spares. If it mines and makes them locally, the local mining operation can be disrupted. If it ships them in, the shipping can be disrupted. Each probably requires different tactics, although it's pretty hard to interdict Traveller ships, especially if they're refueling from fleet tankers or can jump there and back.

But I could see, for example, that the aim in regards to a mining setup would be to drive the shipyard away from its mines, requiring it to set a new operation. A mobile shipyard being supplied by cargo runs can operate anywhere and may be both harder to locate and easier to protect.

And hybrid models are possible.

 

[Sageryne]

Oh, totally. Being able to extract the raw materials and turn them unto spares on the spot is a logistics dream.

The main reason not to would be timeliness. If rocks -> spares takes significantly longer than shipping spares to the mobile facility it may not be used by something like a navy, although a commercial concern would be looking more at costliness.

As a point militarily, a forward repair facility has different vulnerabilities depending on how it gets its spares. If it mines and makes them locally, the local mining operation can be disrupted. If it ships them in, the shipping can be disrupted. Each probably requires different tactics, although it's pretty hard to interdict Traveller ships, especially if they're refueling from fleet tankers or can jump there and back.

I totally agree. The government/Navy would always prefer to have parts manufactured by the lowest bidder and shipped in, if possible.

I envision this sort of high cost, complicated and vulnerable forward mining, manufacturing and shipyard complex would still be kept back from the front and well protected. If it can be stationed in an industrialized system that can provide raw materials and manufacture parts cheaper, all the better. However, I suspect destroying shipyards and any infrastructure that could support a navy would be a priority of the enemy. If the existing facilities had been destroyed, then bringing your own facilities along would be a necessity, costs be damned.

In the Pacific campaign, there weren't any places (aside from Pearl Harbour) for thousands of miles. The floating drydocks turned uninhabited atolls into instant San Diegos.

The other scenario I thought this would be useful for is more benign. I can see scouts using such vessels for long range exploration, like the Solomani Navy's Rim Expedition or the Zhodani Core Expedition. In those cases, resupply might be impossible and there may be no other options aside from in situ resource utilization. A combination of shipyard, manufacturing and mining vessels would allow you to settle a system far from home and use it as a base to explore a sector.

 

[NOLATrav]

Supercool idea

 

[MasterGwydion]

System Defense Brick class Defense Drone - Traveller

wiki.travellerrpg.com

Load several hundred of these on to the ship and it will be well defended and very hard to push off it's mining area.