Literacy and Dialect

[Supplement Four]

We discussed this a while back, but I'm brining it back up again. I decided to use a new thread because I'm throwing dialect in as a conversation topic.

The game seems to default to PCs being literate with every language that they speak (although I'm having a hard time finding what the game specifically says about this), and the game is very forgiving in allowing the PCs to gain new languages easily.

I get that. Conan never seems to have a problem communicating, where ever he goes, all over the world.




Literacy?

But, if a GM were to restrict literacy in some situations, as with Barbarian characters (in the Cimmeria sourcebook, it states that Cimmerians are superstitious of the written word, thinking it another form of magic--by default making most Cimmerians illiterate), how would you handle it if the character found a way to become literate?

I see that Commoners in the 2E rulebook are considered illiterate, and if they want to learn to read and write, they have to spend 2 skill points to become literate.

Is that per language? Or just a one-time skill buy: You spend two ranks in a skill called Literacy, and that one skill applies to each language you speak. (I kinda see the argument of a one-time buy, and have the skill work like Decipher Script).

What do you think?






Decipher Script

In the last thread on this topic, someone brought up that a reading and writing skill was already presented at part of the game with the Decipher Script skill--that the skill could be used to decipher a foreign language as well as an ancient tongue and any language for which the character cannot read or write.

Maybe Decipher Script is a more advanced version of Literacy that the Commoners use?

Your thoughts?





Dialect?

Conan usually has a thick accent when he speaks in foreign tongues. And, the game tends to look at language in big broad categories--such as all Nordheimers speak "Nordheimer".

First off, I bet that the language "Nordheimer" is probably not called that. The name of the language spoke by the Aesir and Vanir could be called "Njarleeth" even though people in far off lands may refer to thier language as "Nordheimer". This is kinda like saying that people in the US speak "American", when the real name of the language is "English".

So...what about regional dialects? Certainly all people in Nordheim don't speak the same version of Njarleeth? There's probably a big difference in the Njarleeth spoken by the Vanir and that spoken by the Aesir...so much so that the Vanir acutally speak an offshoot language called Ymmireeth. To outsiders, it's all "Nordheimer", but among those that know, it's Njarleeth and Ymmireeth.

How would you implement this granularity in a game?

Skill points are too precious to require a PC to spend points on each dialect, and I don't think using language slots is a good answer either. The idea for me would be to add the granularity to the game world without hindering the PC or really changing the broad-based language rules.

I think Language checks are the answer. This could be an ability check--probably a WIS check, but maybe an INT check. Different dialcts would have different DC's associated with them.

Thus, if a character speaks Nordheimer, it's enough. If the character is Aesir, then make any language check needed when speaking Njarleeth as a very low and easy DC to overcome. When the Aesir character speaks with a Vanir, who speaks Ymmireeth, then simply raise the DC.

Thoughts on that?

 

[VincentDarlage]

Honestly, while all of that is all realistic and what-not... I think it would just add a bunch of die-rolling to the game. Unless the additional die-rolling is critical to the plot (to create tension, etc), then all it does is slow down the game.

I have found that having characters not understand NPCs is a quick plot-kill in a lot of instances. The PCs can no longer get information, and all you get is a lot of silly pantemimes and gestures out of the players, and the game loses seriousness quick as they find increasingly silly ways to get their point across.

I don't generally even require skill checks if the task the PC is attempting has nothing to do with the plot. If he wants to find a barrel on the ship to check out its craftsmanship (and not a plot-specific barrel that I would prefer remain hidden), then he finds it. I don't make him do a Search or Spot check for that. Either there are barrels on the ship, or there aren't.

So, my thoughts - keep it simple. It's a game. If it isn't necessary to the plot, don't add dice rolls that just complicate things without reason.

 

[Spectator]

Ditto, with what the Meister just said.

 

[Supplement Four]

Honestly, while all of that is all realistic and what-not... I think it would just add a bunch of die-rolling to the game.

See the point and agree. I was thinking outloud.

And, my take was for my current game set in Cimmeria. I'm not sure if the PCs will ever leave. We might play the entire game in Cimmeria. I dunno. We'll see how it goes (the PCs could just as well start globe trotting, too...we'll see).

If we stay in Cimmeria, I was looking for ways of keeping the feel different in different regions of the country. Language is one of those areas where this could happen.

I dunno. I'll keep thinking about it. It's a tool to keep in the back pocket.

I am into simulation and realism, but I do understand non-needed dice throws bogging up the game. I always try to find a good mix.

 

[Nyarlathotep5150]

I'd have to agree as well. The lack of a Common tongue and sheer number number of world languages already leaves enough room for adding in Communication barriers when the GM WANTS them.
Adding in more complications to it would just bog it down unnecessarily.
I also think that, while yes each language should have different dialects (I doubt Southern Vanir talk exactly like Northern Vanir, or meadow Shemites, the same as Desert Shemites). The difference should probably be mostly a Narrative one, and mostly only noticeable to natives of the land in question. I don't think it should require dierolls. Its still the same language, with just minor changes in inflection and certain words, 99% of the time one should still be able to make themselves understood (Cuban Spanish and Mexican Spanish are subtly different dialects, but it doesn't hinder communication).

Also, could someone help me out here? I remember seeing a rule about "Language Similarity" that showed which Hyborian Languages are similar enough that if you spoke one, you could make yourself understood in the others (if only in very basic form).
But when I went to look it up reference it here, I couldn't find it.
If someone could post the book and page number for that, it would work as a sort of dialect system too.

 

[Supplement Four]

Also, could someone help me out here? I remember seeing a rule about "Language Similarity" that showed which Hyborian Languages are similar enough that if you spoke one, you could make yourself understood in the others (if only in very basic form).

I'd love to see that as well. I remember seeing is someplace also, but, like you, I don't know where.

 

[Jacek]

I remember seeing a rule about "Language Similarity" that showed which Hyborian Languages are similar enough that if you spoke one, you could make yourself understood in the others (if only in very basic form).

I do not remember that but you can always try using the races table on p.15 of the 2e rulebook as a rough reference. The third column ("Nations") is what I would use.

As for dialects in general I prefer the idea of using them "narratively" as with literacy in languages. What I mean is let the characters speak with a person using a different dialect. If, at GM's discretion, the said dialect is significantly different, mix the words, use odd grammar or misshapen sentences. Let the players hear the difference.

Now about the decipher script skill. It could possibly be used to read a text in foreing language, but I don't think that it could be used instead of literacy.

Maybe Decipher Script is a more advanced version of Literacy that the Commoners use?

The latter is just a set of rules that is taught to us for more or less common future use, while deciphering is about finding relations between various elements of the text. In other words, deciphering can be a basis of literacy but requires being literate to know the concept of writing.[/quote]

 

[Clovenhoof]

First off, I agree with everything Vincent Darlage said. +1.

That said, just to add a couple of cents, since I happen to be a linguist. Historically people were quite apt at understanding different dialects. It's hard to find a current example, since language has been very much standardized in most countries, but we find one looking at Switzerland. Switzerland is small and split into three major language zones, but even the german-speaking part has lots of very different dialects - and _no_ standard language.
Educated Swiss people can speak high german (i.e. the standard language of Germany and Austria), but they do so only when conversing with foreigners (e.g. Germans). No self-respecting Swiss would speak high german with one of his countrymen, not even in a very technical or scientific environment. Instead, each speaks in their own dialect, and they all understand each other. This process is called "conversion".

A thousand years ago, Anglo-Saxons and Vikings each had their own language. Old English is west-germanic while Old Norse, surprise, north-germanic, the branches having split in the first few centuries CE. But these two groups were able to understand each other just fine, and they sure didn't learn the other group's language. There was no "standard language" and most speakers of either certainly were not especially learned. Actually, contemporary linguists (like the First Grammarian) considered their languages to be "ein tunga" - one tongue, one language, whereas modern linguistics, as I said, would classify them as different languages.
Other sources point to more examples of conversion as a means of communication throughout Europe, using different base languages.

Anecdotal evidence; when my mother visits Catalunia in Spain, she just speaks French to the locals (she doesn't speak any Spanish, and the Catalans don't like Spanish anyway). The Catalans understand her by conversion, and she understands Catalan by conversion, although it is definitely a different language than French.
Likewise, Swedes and Norwegians understand each other pretty well, although technically their "Nordheimer" counts as two different languages. But that's mostly owned to the tongue-in-cheek definition,
"A langage is a dialect with an army and a navy".

It is something of a skill, yes, but one that would be very natural to anyone in a society without a standard language. Which loops me back to game terms: it's fine as it is. If you start rolling dice for understanding your neighbours, you might as well roll on "getting dressed" and "not peeing in your pants" or "remembering to breathe".

 

[Nyarlathotep5150]

Also, I forgot to address this in my post.

Commoners gaining literacy.
I would go the D&D route with this one. classifying "Language" as a skill thats cross-class to all classes (except maybe Scholar), and each rank (2 skill points) lets you speak a new language (or read and write one you already speak if you have the illiterate class feature).
In Conan, the Language skill was mostly cut out, with the addition of the free languages you get at odd levels, but I'd use it as a basis in this case...Also, if as you said, the game is going to be central to cimmeria, with little or no globetrotting, I'd consider just adding in the skill and dropping free languages entirely (the basis of the free languages is that the characters are being immersed in the culture that speeks that language. In your game they wont be).
Also, if you want a more "authentic" medieval Europe feel, consider applying the illiterate class feature at first level to all classes but noble and scholar, and making everyone use ANOTHER language slot to be able to read/write a language.

 

[Supplement Four]

In Conan, the Language skill was mostly cut out, with the addition of the free languages you get at odd levels, but I'd use it as a basis in this case...

I am making the PCs illiterate. I guess I'll use the Commoner method and charge the PC's two skill points if they want to read & write.

I'm thinking it will be a one-time purchase, used for every language that they speak.

What you're saying is a bit different: Trading in languges to speak for literacy in others.

 

[Nyarlathotep5150]

Not exactly different. If you used language as a skill, each rank would be another language, and each rank would be 2 skill points, because its crossclass for every class.
I'm pretty sure the commoner spending 2 points to be literate was based on this rule (and they probably changed the language system after).
I wasn't talking about "trading in" Languages. Just buying Literacy in a language, as a separate Language.
In the system I was proposing, the characters wouldn't get the free languages at odd levels. The game runs on the assumption that the characters are globe trotting adventurers. If their not, If they're more like, local badasses, then that rule doesn't really make sense for them.
But then, for that matter. If the game never leaves Cimmeria (or rarely does), then the entire issue of language is mostly irrelevant. In a game where all the NPC's speak one language, the PC's knowing any other languages falls into three categories of usefulness.
1) Flavor (for foreign characters, or characters who traveled abroad).
2) Reading ancient script (decipher script will be more useful).
3) having secret conversations that the NPC's cant understand.

but, I think, if we where going for realism, having literacy be all or nothing makes no sense. Not even counting the fact that many different cultures have different scripts, each language would have different spelling fixations, and pronunciations (trust me, you have no idea how many times I've seen a french word that I would know if spoken, but in script not recognize it).
I think the idea of universal literacy is based on the concept that we learn languages based on reading/writing thats true now (in modern society, its a safe bet that anything anyone knows was learned through reading/writing), it wasn't really true in medieval Europe.

 

[Supplement Four]

but, I think, if we where going for realism, having literacy be all or nothing makes no sense.

It was a token way to have it in there without making the players spend a bunch of skill points for literacy in every language that they know. Even spending 4 points for literacy in Cimmerian (if there is a written Cimmerian language--I'm not sure that there is) and Nordheim is too much.

Heck, I think spending 2 points for Literacy is too much. I just went with that because it was in the book. I'm considering "giving" the points to them, if/when they earn it, so it doesn't cost any of their precious skill points.

I think literacy should be a special ability rather than a skill in this game. It would go better with the language system. Some characters start out literate, and some don't. A Noble or Scholar class obviously would, while a Barbarian or Nomad class probably wouldn't. For everybody else, it should be up to the GM's discretion.



Back to the way it is in the game, though--shown with the Commoner as a Cross-Class skill--that has some merit, too. Whether you have the PC pay the two skill points or give them to him as a freebie, the skill Knowledge (Literacy) goes on his sheet as a single skill.

What the GM does is change the DC depending on the character's skill with the languge. Let's say a character begins the game speaking Cimmerian and Nordheimer. Cimmerian doesn't have a written language, but the Nordheimers do. The character is familiar with this, so any DC to read something written in Nordheimer is very low: DC 0 or DC 5.

Let's say the character picks up Hyperborean as the game goes on. Well, he's not that comfortable with that language as soon as he learns it, so, for a while, any written Hyperborean words would have a DC 10 or DC 15 accociated with them. As the character gets more familiar with the language, the DC comes down--as he's learning to read the language more often.

We need to remember, too, that there isn't a lot of written material in the Hyborian Age. Books are expensive. Most Commoners (according to the game) are not literate. So, you don't stroll into town and typically see Sally the Bar Troll on her break outside the Tavern reading a book.

In my game, I'm going to be hard on literacy (Heck, the game says Cimmerians shun the written word, anyway, thinking it the same as magic.), but, at the same time, there won't be a lot that needs to be read.

As the characters grow, they may overcome their Cimmerian superstitions and learn how to read and write. If so, I'll use the Commoner rule and the skill "Knowledge (Literacy)" as I described above.

 

[Nyarlathotep5150]

Well, in D&D they use it as a skill thats all or nothing you put 2 points in it for the rank(1 point for Bards cause it a class skill for them) and you can choose a language you speak.
Barbarians have to take it for literacy, because they start out illiterate... However, the Barbarian is the only class that has the illiteracy class feature in D&D, and it goes away if you ever take a level in a class that doesn't have it. So most people just dropped a level in fighter to get rid of illiteracy Thats one issue to keep in mind if you make it a class feature (though in Conan I think the only classes that should be assumed to have literacy would be Noble and Scholar. Nobles hard to multiclass into, and well learning to read would be necessary in multiclassing into scholar, so maybe it works itself out).
Ultimately, I just think the part where it says that a Commoner can spend 2 points to be literate was put in using the basic d20 language system, and they probably didn't build the Conan Language system till later.

 

[Supplement Four]

Also, could someone help me out here? I remember seeing a rule about "Language Similarity" that showed which Hyborian Languages are similar enough that if you spoke one, you could make yourself understood in the others (if only in very basic form).

This is really bothering me. Where the heck did we see that before?

I remember it showing how some languages grew out of another tongue.

 

[Jacek]

Also, could someone help me out here? I remember seeing a rule about "Language Similarity" that showed which Hyborian Languages are similar enough that if you spoke one, you could make yourself understood in the others (if only in very basic form).

You sure it was in Mongoose Conan?

 

[Supplement Four]

You sure it was in Mongoose Conan?

I thought the same, then went looking last night. I remember a chart, but what I found was text in the GURPS Conan game.

It'll do.

 

[Jacek]

Good job , Supplement Four. Had I been at home, I would have checked that book, too.

 

[Supplement Four]

I haven't spent a lot of time looking at GURPS Conan. I've never been a GURPS player, and I got the book only because it was "Conan".

I'm surprised that it will be useful to my game. There is a lot of good information in that book, but even the ancient languages will be easy to translate to Mongoose Conan.

For example, Antillian, Cimmerian, Nordheimr, and Pictish all share a common root--that of the ancient Atlantean language. It's kinda like English and Spanish sharing Latin as a common root. Different languages, but with commonalities.

That's pretty cool.

And, as for learning the ancient languages, a GM can take a cue from the GURPS rules using the d20 system. Lemurian is Mental/Hard task to learn under the GURPS rules. That'd be easy to say it's an INT based task with a DC 15. Pick the appropriate skill.

Lots of other cool stuff in the book, too. I like it. It isn't badly written at all.