Line of Sight and models

[Xorrandor]

So, this has probably been answered before, but my relatively quick search didn't find anything...

How do models affect Line of Sight? The rules state that models within the firing unit do not block Line of Sight, but to other models?

Example 1: I'm trying to fire into the middle of a horde of infantry. Can I place my fire zone 6" into the mob, even though there is an enemy model between the center of the fire zone and every one of my firing models?

Example 2: My enemy is closing with infantry trailing 8" behind a tank, with my infantry unable to see them through the turret. Can I place the fire zone 4" behind the tank and try for some collateral damage?

Example 2b: The tank turns to move down a side street, such that I can now see the heads of the infantry over the top of the tank. Now can I fire 4" behind the tank and hit infantry? Do they gain +1 to their target value for obscurement?

 

[cordas]

So, this has probably been answered before, but my relatively quick search didn't find anything...

How do models affect Line of Sight? The rules state that models within the firing unit do not block Line of Sight, but to other models?

Example 1: I'm trying to fire into the middle of a horde of infantry. Can I place my fire zone 6" into the mob, even though there is an enemy model between the center of the fire zone and every one of my firing models?

Example 2: My enemy is closing with infantry trailing 8" behind a tank, with my infantry unable to see them through the turret. Can I place the fire zone 4" behind the tank and try for some collateral damage?

Example 2b: The tank turns to move down a side street, such that I can now see the heads of the infantry over the top of the tank. Now can I fire 4" behind the tank and hit infantry? Do they gain +1 to their target value for obscurement?

1: You draw LOS to models in the fire zone, not to the firing point. Any model in the fire zone can be hit including your own. Unless it helps to create the fire zone (shoots into it). That said there is an exception to this, certain weapons like grenades and RPGs cause explosion damage, they damage any model with in the explosion radius irrelevant of LOS or who's figures they are. Also note your own guys don't block line of sight for the guys behind them.

2: I think I answered that above. You need to be able to draw LOS to the model(s) to cause collateral damage.

2b: Yes thats the way I read it. (other may disagree, this is something we are still thrashing out but current consensus is yes).

 

[Xorrandor]

So, this has probably been answered before, but my relatively quick search didn't find anything...

How do models affect Line of Sight? The rules state that models within the firing unit do not block Line of Sight, but to other models?

Example 1: I'm trying to fire into the middle of a horde of infantry. Can I place my fire zone 6" into the mob, even though there is an enemy model between the center of the fire zone and every one of my firing models?

1: You draw LOS to models in the fire zone, not to the firing point. Any model in the fire zone can be hit including your own. Unless it helps to create the fire zone (shoots into it). That said there is an exception to this, certain weapons like grenades and RPGs cause explosion damage, they damage any model with in the explosion radius irrelevant of LOS or who's figures they are. Also note your own guys don't block line of sight for the guys behind them.

Actually, I thought you couldn't hit a model from your own unit in the fire zone. Your own models from different units would be possible (even likely, assuming they are closer to you than the enemy), which hopefully is what you were refering to.

The rules also state that everyone who is firing has to have Line of Sight to the center of the Fire Zone, though, not just the models to be hit.

So, if the enemy has set up a line of infantry standing shoulder to shoulder, in front of their machine guns, can I mow down the line of infantry and still hit the machine gunners with enough hits? Or does the line of infantry block line of sight, such that I need to take a second Shoot action to get the dangerous guys with machine guns? Or (middle ground?) do the guys in back get +1 to their Target value because only parts of them are visible due to "cover"?

And finally, do any of these answers change if the first line of infantry is set up 7" ahead of the second line of machine guns?

 

[cordas]

Actually, I thought you couldn't hit a model from your own unit in the fire zone. Your own models from different units would be possible (even likely, assuming they are closer to you than the enemy), which hopefully is what you were refering to.

You can't with normal shooting, but with explosive rounds such as grenades it should hit anyone who is within the fire zone of the grenade (1 inch) irrelevant of which side they are on. This will only really be an issue if you are shooting at extremely close ranges such as if you are both in cover, and you are stupid / desperate enough to use these special weapons like these in these circumstances. At least this is my reading of the rules.

The rules also state that everyone who is firing has to have Line of Sight to the center of the Fire Zone, though, not just the models to be hit.

Hmm some bad reading of the rules there on our behalf.

So, if the enemy has set up a line of infantry standing shoulder to shoulder, in front of their machine guns, can I mow down the line of infantry and still hit the machine gunners with enough hits? Or does the line of infantry block line of sight, such that I need to take a second Shoot action to get the dangerous guys with machine guns? Or (middle ground?) do the guys in back get +1 to their Target value because only parts of them are visible due to "cover"?

And finally, do any of these answers change if the first line of infantry is set up 7" ahead of the second line of machine guns?

With your correct reading of the rules I really don't know. Maybe this is the answer to stop (or reduce) snipping. What does everyone else think? Do the defending troops block LOS, or grant obscurement. (classing your troops in front as cover just seems wrong on so many levels lets not consider it.)

 

[Major Chaos]

It says right under Fire Zones and Line of Sight that models not in attacking unit provide obscurement or blocked LOS. I guess the guys in the front rank take more bullets...

 

[cordas]

It says right under Fire Zones and Line of Sight that models not in attacking unit provide obscurement or blocked LOS. I guess the guys in the front rank take more bullets...

I am not sure about that, in the 3 classes of LOS it only talks about terrain blocking or obscuring LOS, and models ain't terrain (this is claified under the terrain section anything placed that is placed on the table that is not a model)).

In the next paragragth it goes on to state that models in the same attacking unit never block LOS (your own guys don't interfear), it then states

However, models not in the same unit can block or obscure LOS.

The interpration is what unit is being talked about? I think this means unit(s) outside the fire zone. Given the way that damage dice are allocated (highest numbers to the closest) it seems harsh and unrealistic that these figures also provide obscurement or blocked LOS to guys behind unless they are of a larger size (such as a tank).

Hmmm nothing beyond the above mentioned quote says anything about models affecting LOS, would a single infantry bloke give obscured (or in bizarre circumstances) blocked LOS between an attacker and a tank? Size difference must play a roll in this I am sure if this is the case.....

 

[Shadow4ce]

Personally, I believe the +1 to target is representative of taking extra care not to hit the intervening unit (which irl would involve more careful aim and maybe slight relocation to get the angle), as you really want to take out the one you are trying to hit.

As far as firing through one enemy to get to another, I was alway trained to take out the most dangerous enemy first. However, in actual application, it is truly amazing how often the "closest target" is also deemed the "most dangerous" one to the person under fire, hehe. Most folks take a long hard look at somebody up close before deciding, nah, I'd better launch a grenade at the mg tangos first, then I can shoot up the PLA infantry next turn. Just a thought, but this is why I feel a +1 to target is also valid when both units are enemies. You personally may not care if closer units get hit, but they are certainly a distraction that make you think a bit before you decide to launch a Javelin at the tank being screened by said infantry. :wink:

 

[cordas]

Just a second. How would it work for detirming if a model was behind another model for obscurement purposes. Yes in a line of shoulder to shoulder with mgs behind its obvious, but generaly when we play figures are more loosly spread. You would have to roll each shot one at a time to determine who was obscured and who wasn't.

The firing sequence is:

1. Declare unit action - shoot.
2. Nominate Fire Zone.
3. Check range and LOS to FZ.
4. Check LOS from shooting models to target models
5. Calculate number of dice to be rolled.
6. Allocate Kills highest dice to closest (including weapons that can differentiate targets such as armour)
7. Allocate Targets highest dice to closest non kills (including weapons that can differentiate targets such as armour)
8. Make any relevant saves and remove casualties.

If you have to start working out which model has LOS to what individual model for obscurement / blocked LOS then it would be impossible to follow the firing sequence. This also means that a model that can claim obscurement or blocked LOS to 1 shooting model but can't to others doesn't get it.

We would (and do) alter the firing sequence a bit in extreme circumstances by saying if 4 guys can only shoot 1 guy, and 1 guy can shoot the other 3 in the FZ (because some are blocked LOS by terrain for example) that you roll 2 different sets of dice. One for the 4 shooting 1 and the other for the 1 shooting 3. This just strikes us as fair and reasonable, but is a different case to models blocking or obscuring LOS to others in their squad.

In the example I wouldn't give the MGs any benefit as its just unworkable except for that exact example, any break in the shoulder to shoulder line could / would allow someone to gain clear LOS.

 

[The Legend]

Well I see it like this.

Models of the same size block line of sight to each other.

A larger model blocks Line of Sight to a smaller model.

A smaller model obscures Line of Sight to a larger model.

A Fire zone cannot be created to snipe if models are blocking the Line of sight to the sniping FZ or some dice will be lost from weapons unable to draw LOS. Pretty clear I suppose when you think about it.

 

[Bondarus]

Good work legend.

That about sums it up.

I think thats really the line you have to take in these situations, otherwise you start to complicate matters.

 

[cordas]

Well I see it like this.

Models of the same size block line of sight to each other.

So take the above example, the MGs are blocked then?

Then move some of the front rank so they aren't shoulder to shoulder but randomly spaced enough so that some of the MGs are blocked, others obscured from some of the shooters and some can cleanly be seen by a couple of shooters. How do you work out who is and isn't blocked / obscured and in the open?

When its a clear one on one its simple, when you get multipul models shooting at multipul models all I can see is a mess. I ain't trying to complicate the issue, I am trying to look at it from the point of view and model layouts of the games we have had.

The size issue really is a no brainer as long as comon sense is used. Larger models will cause obscurement and block LOS.

A Fire zone cannot be created to snipe if models are blocking the Line of sight to the sniping FZ or some dice will be lost from weapons unable to draw LOS. Pretty clear I suppose when you think about it.

Yup, if you want to snipe you can, but it could well be costly in the amount of fire power you lay down, and I would say using the same comon sense used for size that if you are trying to shoot through a bunch of models to snipe at a team leader at the back then he is more than likely going to be obscured by the models in front AS LONG as they are outside the FZ. Really just bung your important models in the middle / back and they will be very difficult to snipe, if you stick them out on the flanks then they are easy targets

 

[The Legend]

Well I see it like this.

Models of the same size block line of sight to each other.

So take the above example, the MGs are blocked then?

No. The MG's are part of the same squad weren't they? If not then yes the MG's are blocked because they are the same size!

How do you work out who is and isn't blocked / obscured and in the open?

Whoever doesn't have LOS to the Fire zone because thier LOS is blocked by a model the same size as or larger than them.

When its a clear one on one its simple, when you get multipul models shooting at multipul models all I can see is a mess. I ain't trying to complicate the issue, I am trying to look at it from the point of view and model layouts of the games we have had.

It has been just this easy we just never thought about it these terms. Thats why we've been playing the games so we can learn the intricacies of the rules

A Fire zone cannot be created to snipe if models are blocking the Line of sight to the sniping FZ or some dice will be lost from weapons unable to draw LOS. Pretty clear I suppose when you think about it.

Yup, if you want to snipe you can, but it could well be costly in the amount of fire power you lay down, and I would say using the same comon sense used for size that if you are trying to shoot through a bunch of models to snipe at a team leader at the back then he is more than likely going to be obscured by the models in front AS LONG as they are outside the FZ. Really just bung your important models in the middle / back and they will be very difficult to snipe, if you stick them out on the flanks then they are easy targets

Yup this is actually very similar to SST (only it was size that determined the area you couldn't fire through rather than the model itself) as this was one of the advantages of the Size rules. I like em. Being able to fire through your own figs at a disadvantage is great. I really am starting to love these rules!

 

[The Legend]

Good work legend.

That about sums it up.

I think thats really the line you have to take in these situations, otherwise you start to complicate matters.

Cheers.

I must admit that I think a lot of people are trying to overcomplicate these rules when they are just an easy entry into the BF Evo or SST Evo world. Lets face it who here isn't going to buy the core rules when they come out! They should sort out a lot of these teething probs.

 

[Major Chaos]

However, models not in the same unit can block or obscure LOS.

This quote is out of context. The entire entry is "Note that attacking models in the same unitwill never block or obscure LOS for each other- efectively, you can shoot through models in the same unit, as it is assumed they move out of the way of each other. Models not in the same uniit can block or obscure LOS."

It is very clear. Also this is not other games. Infantry bases do not block LOS unless the the model is so huge you cant see a model on the other side. Back ranks of infantry in most cases should get obscurement.

 

[The Legend]

Also this is not other games. Infantry bases do not block LOS unless the the model is so huge you cant see a model on the other side. Back ranks of infantry in most cases should get obscurement.

So are you saying that a PLA infantry unit (for example) can taget a point that singles out the USMC sergeant in the squad and take a +1 modifier to their roll because he's obscured by the rest of the squad. It just seems easier to take it as a model of equal or larger size than the target blocks LOS and the lower sizes obscure. This balances the game and adds more realism in effect as you still get infantry firefights without too much singleing out. In effect the damage Dice allocation allows you to single out MGs and corporals and sergeants by choosing extra Dice to single them out.

 

[Major Chaos]

It just seems easier to take it as a model of equal or larger size than the target blocks LOS and the lower sizes obscure. This balances the game and adds more realism in effect as you still get infantry firefights without too much singleing out.

Sorry if you think your way makes it easier but it is not what the rules say to do. Now you understand why us old SST player learned to keep our leader in the middle of the squad so someone else always gets a die allocated to them before they do. Also, this is exactly the situation the last part of the leader rules are addressing since in the old SST when you lost your leader you were just SOL. Now you only lose 2 action and can continue on.

 

[Hiromoon]

 

[Xorrandor]

So are you saying that a PLA infantry unit (for example) can taget a point that singles out the USMC sergeant in the squad and take a +1 modifier to their roll because he's obscured by the rest of the squad. It just seems easier to take it as a model of equal or larger size than the target blocks LOS and the lower sizes obscure. This balances the game and adds more realism in effect as you still get infantry firefights without too much singleing out. In effect the damage Dice allocation allows you to single out MGs and corporals and sergeants by choosing extra Dice to single them out.

I don't know that it's that unbalanced, really. Assuming you've kept your sergeant in the back, sniping him requires:
* Moving the FZ behind the target unit, to make the sergeant the "closest model". Coincidentally, this means the sergeant is also the only model in the FZ.
* Giving free obscurement bonus.
* Hoping that the return fire (from the reaction) doesn't take out your sergeant when your opponent returns the favor.

It's not exactly a free lunch. Balance against that these facts:
* The guys in front are dropping to one knee so the back ranks can fire every time they take a Shoot action. We don't want to track that, so we just say they don't provide full cover.
* If you can shoot at an arm and part of a leg sticking around the corner of a building, you can shoot at an arm and part of a leg sticking around another model.

I think it's a reasonable compromise. I could be persuaded that a genuine mob (a knot of a few ranks of men, packed so close together their bases touch) would block LOS, but a single guy just seems too small to completely block the guy behind him.

 

[cordas]

I think it's a reasonable compromise. I could be persuaded that a genuine mob (a knot of a few ranks of men, packed so close together their bases touch) would block LOS, but a single guy just seems too small to completely block the guy behind him.

This is what I am feeling, and would just add one thing you forgot to mention.

If you select a FP 6"inches behind the model you want to target (who is behind or in the middle of his own squad) you are more than likely going to be signifactly reducing the amount of fire power you can put down as each shooting model needs LOS to both the FP and the target model itself.

Given all these riders it makes snipping off models at the back or in the middle of a squad a fairly hard thing to do, and is going to drasticaly cut down your chances of suppressing the target squad. Remember that if you suppress a squad it can't reaction fire, it can only move.

I suppose it makes small fire teams a lot more vunerable that full squads, but that strikes me as realistic.

Hmmm on a side note, I wonder if there will be anything in the Advanced rules about being in cover, or certain terrain types moderating the dice needed to suppress a unit.... I would think its a lot easier to suppress some guys caught in the middle of the road, than some in a house or fortified bunker..... At the moment its only their targets and kill scores that get altered.

 

[The Legend]

I think it's a reasonable compromise. I could be persuaded that a genuine mob (a knot of a few ranks of men, packed so close together their bases touch) would block LOS, but a single guy just seems too small to completely block the guy behind him.

I suppose I can see the arguements here I just don't see squad level units blasting away at each other then singling out the squad l eader or MG as the first casualty. The way I see it the Damage dice allocation where any remaining shots can be allocated by the shooter where he wants is enough to simulate the singling out of the unit leader/MG etc.

If you select a FP 6"inches behind the model you want to target (who is behind or in the middle of his own squad) you are more than likely going to be signifactly reducing the amount of fire power you can put down as each shooting model needs LOS to both the FP and the target model itself.

Yup under the same size obscures rule yeah but I don't buy into this.

Given all these riders it makes snipping off models at the back or in the middle of a squad a fairly hard thing to do, and is going to drasticaly cut down your chances of suppressing the target squad.

Since when? I was under the impression that a unit that is suppressed only loses it's next action not reaction.