Life Support Costs

[Edsan]

Howdy,

I have been having some fun lately generating MGT characters and designing a ship or two. I think I grok the starship rules except for one thing: Life Support Costs.

What are these exactly, what is that money paying for and why are the prices so steep?

The way I see it life support on a starship includes:

Gravity
Temperature
Protection againts outer space hazards (e.g. radiation, etc)
Water
Breathable atmosphere
Food


Out of this list the first 2 are certainly taken care of by the ship's power drive and cost nothing besides fuel.

The third might require some expendable exotics that must be routinely replaced; but I find it odd space-faring civilizations that extend oveer tens or hundreds of parsecs would design spacecraft that require monthly resuplies of these.

Both water and atmosphere can be recicled/purified in the closed system of the ship with a minimum energy demand from the fusion drive. Even accounting for some mid-to-long term loss (airlock use, etc) surely they would last more than a month. And even if that was not the case both can be replentished for free in suitable worlds (which should mean, if water/atmosphere ARE a part of life support cost it should be lower on those).

Food is obviously included in life support costs, but of course, it can't account for the whole cost; that would mean crewmembers and passengers are eating a whole lot of the Imperial equivalent of caviar .

Last but not least, the LS costs are separate from the ship's Maintnance costs, so I assume they do not include replacement of the LS systems themselves (purifiers, etc).

All in all I'm left scratching my head a bit and wondering about those high monthly LS costs. I also struggle to see how the LS rule fits with extended space travel, such as Scout exploration mission or the 6-month jaunt on the CT Adventure 4: Leviathan.

What do you think?

 

[rust]

I prefer the GURPS Traveller system, where life support is considerably
cheaper: Spare parts, including those for the life support system (filters
and thelike), cost 0.1 % of the ship's original purchase price per year, be-
yond that air, water and food (of a very basic kind - fresh provisions cost
more) are produced / recycled by the life support system and basically
free.

This also eliminates some bookkeeping concerning occupied staterooms,
doubly occupied staterooms and all that.

 

[BP]

....why are the prices so steep?

To make starship operations expensive so players have something to make income for? :roll:

In CT I always played this as the price for a 'passenger' stateroom while in use... which is expensive - so its cost are too (maybe the cost of certified safe food and drink; logo-ed towels and robes; soap, shampoo and complimentary cosmetics; fancy pillow mints ). Mostly I just ignored it (I recall rolling for the price of consumables...).

And in CT it was twice as expensive (Cr 2,000 per 2 wks instead of 1 month)!

In the RW I shop and negotiate for a lot of things - so I guess I've always treated costs in RP the same way. I generally make up my own - maybe using the published figures as a baseline (starships per say) - often using dice to modify them - or just completely ignoring what is published.

 

[CosmicGamer]

The way I see it life support on a starship includes:

Gravity
Temperature
Protection againts outer space hazards (e.g. radiation, etc)
Water
Breathable atmosphere
Food

Add a waste system for both human and garbage.

Many of the systems may have expensive filters. The filters for my water system cost over $200/year and I'm filtering well water not toilet water. My furnace pushes air only a fraction of the time and that air is not as stale as what the air would be in a closed system so those type of filters would probably cost more. How about filters on a humidly/dehumidify system?

Water: Heath and safety regulations may not allow certain ship systems to use just any water.

Some of the cost could be for replacing seals. Seals broken because the system needs inspection on a monthly basis.

Just some quick thoughts.

EDIT: One problem I see is that one month of food (3 meals plus snacks and drinks per day) could be a significant portion but the book makes this seam insignificant by saying that the cost is the same for occupied or unoccupied staterooms.

 

[Edsan]

....why are the prices so steep?

To make starship operations expensive so players have something to make income for? :roll:

Well...yeah, that metagame issue did cross my mind but the cost of ship's maintance + payments seemed more than enough income drain (and adventuring drive) to me.

 

[BP]

Well...yeah, that metagame issue did cross my mind but the cost of ship's maintance + payments seemed more than enough income drain (and adventuring drive) to me.

Salt in the wounds!

Yeah CosmicGamer - thought about sanitation and filters too - but it just doesn't seem to add up (over Cr 71 per day?) - unless one assumes some luxuries (and when unoccupied?) - yet Core states '... meals at this level will be rather spartan...'

The seals every month? (Not that that wouldn't be a covered in maintenance cost) And an unoccupied stateroom shouldn't have issues with sanitation/air/water filtering costs...

Not that costs have to make sense or add up - but this one does seem rather arbitrary - especially since it concerns a common aspect of the game... as an area I always house rule, it doesn't bother, but it would be interesting to know the rationalization behind this!

 

[Treebore]

Its likely because of the Platinum involved. Seriously. Gold too. More the Platinum though.

Assuming similarities to submarines and the systems on subs, the systems are not cheap, and the bigger the ship, and the more air to be made and cleansed, the more expensive its going to be.

 

[BP]

Submarines are a fair analogy - but rather a niche market, so prices are going to be highly inflated compared to an interstellar empire - todays space stations would be an even more apt analogy - but that is even more niche.

Granted some filter material can be expensive - though Platinum and Gold are typically used as catalysts, one can see them regularly replaced (though generally over multiple months). Funny, this year a waste water supervisor told me I could have an old gas sensor - he couldn't understand why they were so expensive till I explained that the little thing was made up of 10~20% platinium - and that's why I wouldn't take it (ah - honesty).

Its the best rationale yet Treebore and CosmicGamer - but a Gunner's or Steward's annual salary for one month of life support? - especially of an empty stateroom - still hard on the 'believability' scale...

 

[atpollard]

From a real world physics standpoint, the ship's hull isn't massive enough to protect people from radiation, so perhaps an exotic drug or virus repairs cellular damage from radiation.

Then there is the unobtanium for removing all of the excess heat.

 

[Treebore]

Well, the filters are not the cheap kind either. They are the kind that filters out as much as possible. Down to the smallest micron possible.

Why? Because they also provide the air used to cool the electronic systems. Systems that have to be kept as "clean" as possible. So these aren't the cheap filters you buy in Wal Mart to stick on your furnace or AC. These are huge super HEPA filters, that get replaced every 30 days or so to keep your electronic systems as clean as possible, which in turn give your electronics a longer operating life, and keep you and your crew safer in space.

Then there are the oxygen generators and CO 2 Scrubbers, which are not cheap, is where the Platinum and such is at, and yes, they are "catalysts". Which get used up at a steady rate determined by how much O 2 is made and how much CO 2 gets "scrubbed" out of the atmosphere. Then there is the cost of weekly and monthly maintenance.

In fact, I think the costs are cheap. When a submarine goes into its "refit" status for approximately 30 days it costs tax payers millions of dollars per ship, 2 to 3 times per year. Then, about every 10 years, the sub/ship goes into "dry dock" for several years, where a lot of things are completely replaced and at the very least completely tore down and rebuilt and thoroughly tested. Then if it doesn't "pass", it gets tore down again, rebuilt, and tested again. Then again, if need be.

So I think to be "realistic" a space ship should cost as much as 10% of its full value to maintain each year, on average (this would include the dry dock periods too). I would think that since the lives of the crew depend so heavily on a properly operating ship, from forward to aft, top to bottom, standards similar to what are followed in the US Navy would be the "ideal" standards of all space ship owners. That or risk the ever increasing liklihood of equipment failures, which include fires, and could ultimately include the failure of a ships drive systems, or Navigation, or communication, or any other system that could leave a ship crippled in space.

Not to mention having your ship fail during critical periods like docking, taking off, jumping, or fighting off pirates would be extremely bad, and likely catastrophic.

So personally I don't think the costs are high at all.

 

[BP]

From a real world physics standpoint, the ship's hull isn't massive enough to protect people from radiation, so perhaps an exotic drug or virus repairs cellular damage from radiation.

Nah - the hull's fine - its coated in unobtanium! :lol:

Then there is the unobtanium for removing all of the excess heat.

Oh - that - well they just run that there excess thru the endothermic reversal chamber thing-a-majigee locate on the what-ja-magoogle...

Ok - so none of this has to make any kind of real sense - but most of it has some rationale (even when not solid). And Edsan might want some kind of reasoning to lay on his players for their burdens...

 

[Edsan]

Heck, don't worry about my players...I don't have any. I live in Tabletop RPG Wasteland(tm).

Judging from the (excellent) ideas tossed on this thread I would say expensive LS costs can have a rationale backing them up, despite my original thoughts on the matter. The unused stateroom matter can easily be altered (no usage = no cost) if one wishes.

From where I stand there is only one thing that's not quite kosher yet, which is fitting the monthly nature of Life Support costs with mid-to-long term missions (Scouts anyone?) or ships that have an autonomy of over 4 weeks; like the Scout Type S on page 115 of the Rulebook.

That thing has fuel for 14 weeks of operation, that's 3 and a half months. Where would the Scouts "buy" monthly LS when they are charting a uninhabited system for 10 weeks or so?

Unless LS can be bought in advance up to a ship's operation time limit...hmmm.

 

[Treebore]

I would say that is why there is storage. I was 3-M co ordinator/manager for my division. Part of my responsibilities were to schedule maintenance, which included changing out filters and running diagnostic tests and performing any repair procedures required. We also had seriously detailed documentation of these systems which we followed to do any of these repairs. So all we needed was good reading/comprehensions skills and to know how to use tools and special equipment.

So I would think similar processes would be the life of a Scout. So when they go on 3 to 4 month missions they also take along an inventory of replacement and repair parts to allow them to operate safely for that length of time.

 

[rust]

So when they go on 3 to 4 month missions they also take along an inventory of replacement and repair parts to allow them to operate safely for that length of time.

In GURPS Traveller the spare parts are bought during the annual mainte-
nance and are stored in the engine room, with sufficient engine room vo-
lume assigned to this automatically during the design of the ship.

 

[Treebore]

So when they go on 3 to 4 month missions they also take along an inventory of replacement and repair parts to allow them to operate safely for that length of time.

In GURPS Traveller the spare parts are bought during the annual mainte-
nance and are stored in the engine room, with sufficient engine room vo-
lume assigned to this automatically during the design of the ship.

I would say that is definitely realistic. On my sub spare parts were stored in a variety of lockers from one end of the ship to another. Which is common practice among every sub and even surface ships. So I feel confident that such practices would carry on for centuries to come, until they can create dimensional pockets with which to store such materials, or "replicators" with which to make them on the spot with.

 

[Paladin]

A few more ideas:
Personal hygiene supplies - think about the amenities of a hotel. If it's a passenger state room, some items may be supplied by the ship in the same manner.

Cleaning supplies - when staterooms empty after a flight someone as to clean them.

Laundry supplies.

Bacterial/Fungal filtration - with the oddities of space it may require more than just an "common" air scrubber.

Humidity controls

Fire suppression - doesn't get used that often, but when needed it could be expensive. That cost could theoretically be included

Exercise Equipment - not so much a multi-use

Overall replacement cost - "entropy expense" Stuff just plain wears out and needs to be replaced. It may not happen every jump, but eventually certain elements of the overall system will need to be repaired or completely replaced.

EDIT: One problem I see is that one month of food (3 meals plus snacks and drinks per day) could be a significant portion but the book makes this seam insignificant by saying that the cost is the same for occupied or unoccupied staterooms.

Not 100% of food would be non-perishable. There many times crews may have to "stock the shelves" in anticipation of passengers that they don't manage to recruit. Either it goes to waste or people feast on the extras.

 

[pasuuli]

Life Support Costs.

What are these exactly, what is that money paying for and why are the prices so steep?

Probably an artifact (?) from CT. It could have been dropped without harming the rules, I suspect...

 

[BP]

...Probably an artifact (?)...

Ah Ha! We have the answer - it is a mystery of the Ancients!

 

[rust]

...Probably an artifact (?)...

Ah Ha! We have the answer - it is a mystery of the Ancients!

Indeed. I mean, Grandfather has to finance his operation somehow, and
pocket universes do not come cheap nowadays, with all those steadily in-
creasing prices and taxes and all that.

So Grandfather created a series of memes that convince humans and all
those other lower creatures that they have to pay those 2,000 Credits per
month per stateroom for "life support", and this money is secretly collec-
ted by invisible Droyne agents and sent to Grandfather to support his lu-
xurious life style (that's why it is called "life support").

And if you do not believe me, ask Dave Chase, he has first hand experi-
ence of what Grandfather's memes can do.

Yessir. 8)

 

[BP]

...So Grandfather created a series of memes that convince humans and all those other lower creatures that they have to pay those 2,000 Credits per month per stateroom for "life support" ...

Ah it is really so clear - "Life Support" = "Protection Monies"! So it is based on RW! :lol:

[Scampers off to begin Imperial Fees and Expenses: The Histories and Mysteries]