Level 20 builds

[Clovenhoof]

2. Barbarian 12/Soldiar 5/Borderer 3

3. Thief 20

Would you care to elaborate? =) What do you have in mind with that Barb-Sol-Bor build, would that be a TWF build or something else? It looks interesting, but off-hand I don't quite catch why you'd choose the levels like that.

As for the Thief, I always thought Thief and Soldier were the single two classes where singleclassing doesn't really pay off. Am I missing something? Or are you just keen on all the Special Abilities? =)
My two cents: for a Thief build, I think I'd take 10 Thief with Crippling Strike and Evasion or Sorcerous Protection, and fill the rest up with something fighty, maybe Borderer. 5d8 Sneak Attack ought to be enough to MDK everything that's susceptible to Sneak Attacks at all.

 

[Spectator]

1. Hyborian Noble 9/Scholar 11

Please elaborate on this build, I only see a mediocre scholar with good hitpoints, but maybe I'm missing something.

I have never seen a noble build that really moved me.

 

[Valgrim Bragisson]

Clovenhoof and Spectator:

As far as the Barb. build goes, it's based on my own main character, Valgrim. He's a Vanir who served as a mercenery in the Westermarck.
I want him to max out with enough merc expirience to be a good military leader, and enough Barb. lvls to be highly respected in his own culture. The Bord. lvls are from doing a lot of recon missions into the Pictish Wilderness. Barb 12 qualifies him for the Hoard feat, and Sold. 5 gives him the Officer class ability(a 2nd Ed. change). Bord. 3 gives him Skill Focus(Survival), Archery Combat Style, and Diehard(in place of Endurance). Valgrim is currently 10th level(Barb.5/Sold.3/Bord.2).

Theif is just a very versitile and deadly class, with all those skill points, Special Abilities, and Sneak Attack.

The Noble/Scholar build is my attempt at a DnD bard in Conan. Take the Entertainer and Savoar Faire Soc. Abilities, the Performer feat and Skill Focus in a cuople of Perform skills. For Sorcery, focus almost excusivly on Hypnotism, with some Prestidigitation. Also take Debaucher. Why bother with sacrifices when you can just throw the BEST PARTIES? :twisted:

MP

 

[rabindranath72]

I would imagine that even without magic items, it might still take a long time. I love Conan, and the system itself is great, but trying to manage all those skill points is taxing on my brain.

Cannot stand skill points.
I use maxed skill ranks at every level, so skill points are not an issue anymore. At first level, they choose a number of skills (chosen among class and x-class) equal to N+int modifier, where N is their class allowance of skill points. New skills are chosen with a feat, improving a x-class to class is done with a feat. This is the True20 system, essentially.
From there, things flow smoothing.

 

[Ichabod]

The only thing I find interesting about D20 is skill ranks. It's the best (maybe the only if you don't create your own feats) way to make mechanically unique characters.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Personally, I'm rather with Ichabod there; this "All or Nothing" approach may simplify bookeeping but makes all characters look alike. Also, from a mechanical POV, there are many skills that you don't NEED maxed out in most cases.

More precisely, the only skills you do need maxed are the stealth and perception skills and maybe Ride if you're into mounted combat, Bluff if you're into feinting, and a few more in similar veins.

For some other skills, you're fine with a skill modifier around 10 (so you can beat a DC20 with Take10). Or look at Sense Motive; if you want that just to be safe from Feints, you also just need a few ranks in it because the Bluff check is a modified Level check (or BAB check, whatever). Use Rope is even less useful in most cases.

And so on. You may need some proficiency in many skills, but only very few really need to be maxed out. So why should I burn a feat to max out a skill in which I only really want a few ranks?

Nah, I don't mind spending 2 extra minutes each level-up to allocate my skill points manually.

 

[rabindranath72]

And statistically those "+1" or "+2" count for practically nothing, all other factors considered.
Also, it is not just the "two minutes" each level, but try to build an high level NPC getting all the skill ranks correct. Good luck.

 

[rabindranath72]

this "All or Nothing" approach may simplify bookeeping but makes all characters look alike.

Not at all. Even if you could just choose 4 skills out of 6 possible, you would have 15 different character builds possible. For K chosen class skills out of N possible class skills, you get N!/(K!*(N-K)!) possible different skill combinations. Hardly all "look alike"!
Beside, you could always allow buying more skills with feats, and promote x-class to class. The purpose of having a skill is, well, being skilled with it. Wasting 1 or 2 points "just so" only makes things needlessly complex. The new 4e system is quite nice in this respect, and I have imported it into my online Conan game, and it works quite well. Just concentrate on what your character really can do.

 

[Clovenhoof]

@rabin: false dilemma, and/or strawman.

1.) First and foremost, we're talking about PCs here. The entire thread is about PCs. If you want to simplify building high-level NPCs that's fine, but that shouldn't be at the expense of a player's ability to customize his character. For NPCs I agree that your method does a fair job, I use something similar.

2.) I didn't talk about taking +1 or +2 in certain skills, that's the false dilemma. By your system, a character has the dilemma of having a skill at either, say, +16 or 0. By the standard system, you can have a skill at +4, +9, +13, whatever you think does the trick. I even mentioned buying just enough ranks to get a +10 check in order to beat a DC20 with Take10. If that can be done with 2 skill ranks and a lot of racial bonuses, that's fine, but usually you'll need something like 6-8 skill ranks.

For K chosen class skills out of N possible class skills, you get N!/(K!*(N-K)!) possible different skill combinations.

Not the point. Okay, so a character with K=6 and N=16 has 8008 possible combinations in theory. And in practice, about 8000 of these will never occur because they are impractical or downright stupid. Your theoretical combinations would include a Nomad without Ride, a Borderer without Survival, a Thief without Hide/MS and so forth.
In other words, this K will almost always include the stealth and perception skills if a character has access to them, especially since striking first is so absolutely crucial in Conan.

 

[Spectator]

enough with the statistics, this is already too much of a nerd-magnet activity without the statistical analysis thrown in.

 

[rabindranath72]

Not the point. Okay, so a character with K=6 and N=16 has 8008 possible combinations in theory. And in practice, about 8000 of these will never occur because they are impractical or downright stupid. Your theoretical combinations would include a Nomad without Ride, a Borderer without Survival, a Thief without Hide/MS and so forth.
In other words, this K will almost always include the stealth and perception skills if a character has access to them, especially since striking first is so absolutely crucial in Conan.

This reinforces my point. Why having tons of skills (and associated measly ranks), if then some are practically mandatory and archetypal for a character? These should provide the specialisation that is expected from a class. And if you start showing what really a class is all about, you end up with maximised ranks, and consequently few skills.
In fact, I went even further, and consolidated the skill lists for all classes.

 

[rabindranath72]

enough with the statistics, this is already too much of a nerd-magnet activity without the statistical analysis thrown in.

Well, just to prove that even with reduced skill choices, characters are FAR from being cookie cutter. Although, given the genre, archetypes should certainly be reinforced. What is a thief without open locks, or a nomad without ride?

 

[Krushnak]

rabin i think you should look at the Iron Heroes system, it's d20 and has some good ideas in it. One is skill groupings, every class gets access to atleast one each and they are group of 3 or more skills that only take 1 skill point to increase all the skills in the grouping.

Something ive thought about is allowing characters at creation to pick 3 'archetype' skills that they get as one group, they always are class skills and it takes 1 skill point to increase all 3.

 

[rabindranath72]

rabin i think you should look at the Iron Heroes system, it's d20 and has some good ideas in it. One is skill groupings, every class gets access to atleast one each and they are group of 3 or more skills that only take 1 skill point to increase all the skills in the grouping.

Something ive thought about is allowing characters at creation to pick 3 'archetype' skills that they get as one group, they always are class skills and it takes 1 skill point to increase all 3.

Thanks! Seems interesting, but quite sincerely I am done with d20. I only own the 3.0 core d20 books from 8 years ago, Wheel of Time, d20 Cthulhu and Conan d20 (only core, skelos and ruins). And the only reason I keep playing d20 Conan is because of the setting and some nice bits like sorcery. I gave a look at Iron Heroes, and it seems more complex than d20 D&D, if it is possible. But the skill part seems interesting, at least for the organisation.

 

[Style]

quite sincerely I am done with d20.

It's not my cup of tea either.

Me and NCdave run Conan with the Savage Worlds rule set. The test drive rules are available for free if you'd like to check it out. Skills are more generic and all encompassing, like what you're proposing, and overall it's tremendously simpler. PM me if you'd like to hear more.

 

[Hervé]

I agree with you two. I used to run the game using a homebrew version of the Chaosium BRP and evrything went smoothly. Then I decided to turn D20 in order to fully use Mongoose's plublished material. Campaign pace has slowed a lot, combats get long and boring as the PCs rise in levels, bookeeping is heavy and painful. Feats and combat maneuvers feel like scripted actions of a video game. All this and yet it's even less 'realistic' than the Chaosium system. It's just simulation for nothing to me.

I don't think I'll stay to D20 with my next campaign arc, eventhough the system has some neat ideas, drowned under the mass of useless details and silly rules. I think the 4th Ed will clean up things a bit and that the game will gain in fluidity, but I also feel it will look like a video game even more...