Lets talk Gorn

[Keeper Nilbog]

To be fair, i don't think anyone used to the rules system is thinking individual ships, but across the whole fleet. Gorns are very nasty with their armaments :twisted: , and 'Power Drain' generally isn't a problem (we have Phasers and torp's, don't need anything else). Good fire arc help, but if half your ships get poor target solutions due to the enemy ships dodging out of arc, there the problem lies.

The lumbering trait my provide a 'feel' for the fleet (personally, it doesn't, Gorn ships aren't that limited in the abiliy to maneuver), and to be fair i'm actually looking forward to using them - a win would feel 'well won'. Agreed we need many played games to see if the lumbering issue is a serious as i think it will be

If i remember correctly, the BC with the R gives up 2 S-type torps to mount it, so whilst able to engage at range, it gives up hiting power.

The more i think over the Gorn (and i've been a Gorn at Heart for 20+ years), i'm more interested to hear from the people that playtested them how they faired. They alway had trouble against Federation (though removal of proximity's and range reduction of Photon's canceals some, if not all of this), Klingon and Kzinti. As people have mentioned, they designed there ships to fight Romulans (the 'F' and 'P-3' upgrades, and introduction of the 'D-rack' did help). Don't really mind they have issue against those, as they didn't really have an answer to Plasma (not shown in ActA:F).

The initiative sink issue won't work, i think, for Gorn. Ships are generally more expensive than other Empires, and we tend not to have so many ship types. Cheapest shi[ is 115pts, an F5 is 100pts and a Fed WarDestroyer is 110pts. We hit harder at this level, but actually having enough ships to operate an effective sink is going to be difficult, as all ships we generally need to be part of the fire pattern.

As Da Boss says - will wait and see if they have issues - all may become clear when there on the tabletop. (and i think i'll refrain from additional posts until i've played a few games with Gorn :? )

 

[Greg Smith]

Some changes were more far ranging than others, but every single revison eradicated much of the previous data and required playing everything all over again.

We started in June. I have 12 revisions of the rules on my computer. Almost every aspect of the rules has gone through big changes from the start. And there is never enough time to test everything you think needs trying out.

Playtesting: A thinkless job... almost as thankless as Game Design! :wink:

At least designers earn big bucks! :lol:

 

[deadshane]

I find myself looking at the Velociraptor thinking...."Jeez I wish I could trade the two S-Torps for one R on this thing." Erratta please!!!! 8)

Sure, other cruiser hulls have 30 sheilds like the BCH(240) and the CM (at 195).

King eagle cannot handle a couple of photons bashing thru the sheilds with lucky hits.
The gorn ships can.

The Kzinti ship is 20 pts more than the Gorn BCH. I don't think this ship meshes well with a well built Kzinti fleet however. Kzinti like to fight at range were the drones are paramount. Kzinti BCH doesnt have a disrupter advantage and only bring's one more drone than a frigate at 120pts. I don't think many Kzinti's will bring this ship.

The Kirov Fed though, is a comparable ship. It's a good foil to the Gorn BCH. I'm uncertain at how well it fit's into fed fleet plans though. It's a pretty decent ship but if you bring it you're trying to feild more drones and play the klingon or kzinti game....which isnt how feds play. But you're definatly protecting it from potential drone fleets....meaning you could likely see one in a well built fleet.

Nevermind the Gorn CM...which is a cheap/sturdy ship at at 30 sheilds for 195pts, definatly worth it. A nice phaser gunboat with a one time 'WHOOMP"!

Basically, I think a well built gorn fleet at 1000pts should have two of these (either/or OR one of each) anchoring the fleet with some BDD's and HDD's flying around for more serious sheilds and decent plasma support.

...and again, the hell with the command ships. More plasma, more sheilds...you've already lost initiative...deal with it.

 

[deadshane]

If i remember correctly, the BC with the R gives up 2 S-type torps to mount it, so whilst able to engage at range, it gives up hiting power.

Short range gives the S's one more dice damage. Medium Range is a Wash at 6 dice for 2 S's or one R. Long Range Plasma shots are 4 dice for the R, 2 dice for 2 S's.

Giving up hitting power is a debate with "Two S's having more" being on the losing side of said debate.

 

[deadshane]

One more thing...don't forget about "quick launch".

I for one, once the battle get's close and dirty, plan on having the board filled with suicide and boarding shuttles. :twisted:

 

[Garydee]

When I figure out a way for Gorn Fleet's to effectively circumvent Kzinti Drone bombardments, I'll let you know. Obviously, that is a crappy matchup, I'm betting better admiralship will come out ahead most of the time though....and that's who's going to have the most success with this fleet, obviously....the better fleet captains.

I wonder if allowing the plasma carronade to effect drones would be a way to fix this.

 

[Finlos]

Don't forget your tractors!

 

[Iain McGhee]

When I figure out a way for Gorn Fleet's to effectively circumvent Kzinti Drone bombardments, I'll let you know. Obviously, that is a crappy matchup, I'm betting better admiralship will come out ahead most of the time though....and that's who's going to have the most success with this fleet, obviously....the better fleet captains.

I wonder if allowing the plasma carronade to effect drones would be a way to fix this.

It's not really something that needs "fixed", Plasma races in the SFU have always had problems defending against drone races when they can gang up, but it's balanced by the high amounts of damage they can deal out.

I can see a couple of anti-drone tactics for the Gorn (besides killing the enemy faster than they can kill you ), although they each come with there own problems. The All Power To Engines ! and Take Evasive Action ! SAs both give you a fair chance to evade them as you close to torpedo range. Smaller ships can cover your heavies with Intensify Defensive Fire ! And you can use terrain to mask your approach.

 

[andypalmer]

As my local gaming buddy is a pointy-ear, er... Romulan fan, I'll be picking up the Gorns (as the Hydrans aren't out yet). We'll be able to provide some concrete information pretty quickly if there's a problem. Battle Group Baltimore did its fair share of breaking things back in the day

Anecdotally, and given my limited knowledge of the ACTA rule set, I do have some concerns based on what I've read here.

Also anecdotally, I would guess that changing the crippled threshold would be a good representation of the Gorn ship's toughness - i.e., it tends to take more hits before you start hitting a bunch of the good stuff in SFB because of their hull configurations interaction with the damage allocation chart.

But, at this point, I'm flying half-blind on conjecture and hearsay.

 

[GalagaGalaxian]

Don't forget your tractors!

Aye, the "Gorn Anchor" should work just fine in ACTA. If you can get within 2" of a (preferably smaller) ship that hasn't moved yet and get a tractor slapped down on it, hopefully a centerline shot, well, Goodbye enemy.

 

[Finlos]

Good point, GG! While tractors are useful as the last defence against drones it's good to know 'the Anchor' is still a valid tactic in ACTA. There's a few tractor tricks available with should really help the Gorns.

However, as I found out Tuesday, being within 4" of a ship getting hit with multiple AD of plasma can be fairly rough on your own ship.

 

[Captain Jonah]

Scoutdad.

No one is placing blame, well other than the complete lack of good taste in your gaming group. No Gorn players, Hurumph. We are looking at something that seems odd and trying to work out how it got that way. We all appreciate the hard work (and fun) you guys and girls put into this.

PS SF2, tell us more :lol:

Plasma carronade is a heavy weapon and like Disruptors and Photons should not work against Drones I feel.

Gorn anchor. Odd question. If a smaller ship tractors you it cannot stop you moving but what happens if two BDDs or DDs tractor a cruiser, can the two ships (with more Hull together than the target) hold the target while something big lumbers up?

Are suicide shuttles detectable as such. You declare your special action so the enemy knows you are charging one but since the Gorn can launch two shuttles at once can the suicide shuttle be identified or do both need to be destroyed to be sure?
If the answer is they cannot be identified then this will be “Hide the suicide shuttle”.

Gorn Tactics:

Defensive box. Start centrally on your side, put your ships into a squared formation so each pair of ships centrelines the one in front or behind and sidelines the one beside it. Then all go to IDE. Odd numbers of ships sit in the exact middle of four others. This gives you an insane amount of overlapping phaser fire. The formation isn’t very manoeuvrable but hey it’s not intended to be. Its there to fend off those starting drone waves.

Starting position. Always centre your fleet on your edge, never start towards one side or the other unless there is a ruddy great terrain item in front of you. On a 4’ wide map this will place you no more than 24” form either side. If the enemy come in head on laugh like a maniac and burn them to slag. If they come down one edge or the other or both edges then you need to judge your moves and turn towards them while they are still some distance off. With lumbering I am thinking make your 45degree turn the round before you plan to attack. On the next turn (probably turn 2 or 3) then go to all power to engines and charge the map edge, making a turn towards the enemy as you go. Use Init sink ships to cut off the front then move your big stuff in to get the best arc on the enemy ships. They are then faced with going forward through and past your ships, turning around which gives you short range shots at their backs or moving away from the edge which again puts them close to you. Without a map it’s a bit hard to explain but you need to put them in a position where any way they move leaves them in range of something. 8” plasma range gives you a 16” arc which is going to be hard to escape from when the map edge stops them running directly away.
Make the first 45degree turn at the end of your move so you are facing towards the enemy on that side but have not moved towards them, if you make a partial move before the charge the enemy have the option to turn ships around in that round and during the next allowing them to escape. This is a problem with people like the Klinks with agile cruisers. You can then chase them as they go rather than being closer to the edge and trapping yourself.

Demi Squadrons. All Gorn big ships should be bought and operated in pairs. If you want a CC buy a BC or CM to keep it company. Smaller ships can operate solo or in packs around your big stuff but you need anything lumbering to operate with a fleet brother. Scissor these ships past each other as much as possible (every other turn generally) to cover every arc once you get stuff behind you. Aside from the Klinks most other races will have agile ships getting in behind you and a pair of Ss and a pair of Fs plus facing phasers will wreck any destroyer sized ship in a single round.

Hunting packs. Gorn BDDs are agile and have 7AD of plasmas, two of them can upset a light cruiser, three of them can upset a heavy battlecruiser. (by upset I mean blow big holes in ). If you have something to cover the rear of your big stuff a hunting pack can make high speed passes around the map picking off likely targets. All power to engines for an attack run with agility and turn 4 allows them to swing round terrain and close and centreline a target that has moved already then they can run off at speed, reload or boost shields as needed. With 20 shields they get 2D6 so even a down shield can be quickly repaired. In addition to hunting big stuff they can flank and go for small ships being used as Drone chuckers or Init sinks. A quick pass from a BDD is going to make a mess of a frigate and two will take out anyone’s destroyer. They are not super tough so keep them clear of anything big, difficult against the Klinks (damm game designers playing favourites :roll: :wink: ) as you will find an agile cruiser chasing you fairly quickly.

Plasma Turret. You don’t have to move if you don’t want to. You can stay still and turn on the spot if you want. Because of turn modes you only get one 45degree turn but if you are Lumbering who notices. This allows you to keep formations intact on a turn or to park ships tail to tail if you really want to go defensive against a short range foe. Very situational and not much use in general battles but moving less than 12” or not at all can mess up your enemies plans if he expects you to be somewhere and you don’t get there.

 

[Iain McGhee]

Gorn anchor. Odd question. If a smaller ship tractors you it cannot stop you moving but what happens if two BDDs or DDs tractor a cruiser, can the two ships (with more Hull together than the target) hold the target while something big lumbers up?

If a third ship joins in on the tug of war none of them can move. The mass of the ships involved is ignored, so a couple of frigates could hold a dreadnought (until it gets to fire ).

 

[Ben2]

I was giving this some thought today, and thought a racial special rule letting Gorn ships ignore criticals on a 5+ might be the trick for making them a lot tougher.

 

[logical_proof]

What about a racial trait that requires a critical to be a natural six?

 

[deadshane]

After a few games I've settled into a pretty comfortable 1000pt fleet.

Albertosaurus-class Heavy Battlecruiser
Epanterias-K Variant Medium Cruiser X 2
Ceratosaurus-class Battle Destroyer X 3

=990pts

Cruiser's stick together and cover each other. If they get separated...that's how you lose. You never EVER leave your wingman(men).

The destroyers form up a neat little hunting pack that is very agile and dangerous.

One thing I like about this fleet is the point on sheilds. All cruisers have 30. All destroyers have 20. Makes for very surviveable sheilds.

 

[starbreaker]

Closely parallels what I'd take as an ideal Gorn force at that level. The Panty-K variant seems very attractive to me - the R torp has better long range, gives you way more punch when you have only a single weapon system available to fire, and it costs less. You lose out on arc coverage, which is a serious problem for Gorns but with proper formations it should be tolerable. Lack of Command is bad, but let's face it, you're going to be at a disadvantage anyway against many foes.

There are going to be times when it's actually better to use the big ships as your initiative sinks, reserving the late-turn moves for the Ceras who can really exploit the movement opportunity well. With their shorter-ranged plasmas they need the positioning edge more than the cruiser generally will.

 

[archon96]

After several week ends of play, i think gorn are pretty much ok. The biggest issue is drones. My sons feds annoyed the shit of of me with just a few. As a gorn player id be willing to pay the extra cost per ship for just one type d plasma. i believe the rules stated these could be converted into a type of anti drone defense. i could be wrong. id even give up a f type for two d,s. at most this should be an optional variant to choose from. even using terrain, drone chuckers will be annoying as hell to gorn.

 

[Da Boss]

Sounds like a plan - could be a fleet special ability in the next book - or even a bonus feature in the revised errata thats apparently on the way..........