League Of non aligned worlds
- Thread starter skavendan
- Start date
l33tpenguin
Mongoose
I, for one, would like to see the LONAW left, or put with an ISD. League -> AoL -> ISA. Because THATS HOW IT WENT.
The min-maxing issue could be lessened some by requiring that each point cannot be split across multiple races. Then you couldn't just pick single good ships out of a fleet to toss into the mix. A 5 battle fleet could have at most 5 different races (which isn't that bad of a representation). You would have to spend a whole battle point on Gaim, not just get a scout.
The min-maxing issue could be lessened some by requiring that each point cannot be split across multiple races. Then you couldn't just pick single good ships out of a fleet to toss into the mix. A 5 battle fleet could have at most 5 different races (which isn't that bad of a representation). You would have to spend a whole battle point on Gaim, not just get a scout.
Methos5000
Mongoose
I think he is just talking about 3 generations of fleets.
League - pretty much as it is now probably with the removal of ships after a certain date(representing the lack of crusade level technology at this time).
AOL - A specific listing of ships with a few Whitestars mixed in.
ISA - Now that the league is part of the ISA you can use league ships according to the ISA allies rules
I think it works actually, you can still have your league fleet (especially if you ignore ISD) but you won't have access to all the crusade era technology.
Its basically covering the evolution of the league fleet, and I doubt everyone will just take the later list otherwise everyone would already be playing ISA. Plus the regular League option would have a larger variety of ships then the ISA would (as the ISA is limited to one ally at a time, no such restriction for the League)
AOL may not get used a whole lot it depends on its final fleet list I suppose, its an interesting idea though.
League - pretty much as it is now probably with the removal of ships after a certain date(representing the lack of crusade level technology at this time).
AOL - A specific listing of ships with a few Whitestars mixed in.
ISA - Now that the league is part of the ISA you can use league ships according to the ISA allies rules
I think it works actually, you can still have your league fleet (especially if you ignore ISD) but you won't have access to all the crusade era technology.
Its basically covering the evolution of the league fleet, and I doubt everyone will just take the later list otherwise everyone would already be playing ISA. Plus the regular League option would have a larger variety of ships then the ISA would (as the ISA is limited to one ally at a time, no such restriction for the League)
AOL may not get used a whole lot it depends on its final fleet list I suppose, its an interesting idea though.
l33tpenguin
Mongoose
Sorry, I didn't mean to get tempers fired up over the ISA or anything.
I don't like the idea of getting rid of the league list. I like the whole league thing. Its some flavor.
I agree that most people don't follow ISDs, which I'm fine with (although I'm against using fleets with ships that have impossible ISDs, like Saggies with Warlocks). And, like mentioned, I would just like to see the three different lists, League, AoL and ISA. And, that said, I would love seeing League fighting ISA.
They should be three seperate lists.
I don't like the idea of getting rid of the league list. I like the whole league thing. Its some flavor.
I agree that most people don't follow ISDs, which I'm fine with (although I'm against using fleets with ships that have impossible ISDs, like Saggies with Warlocks). And, like mentioned, I would just like to see the three different lists, League, AoL and ISA. And, that said, I would love seeing League fighting ISA.
They should be three seperate lists.
But how do you set all the lists to avoid annoying people? You would have to include a Year version for each ship as to avoid annoying people. This would allow people to play all years using ships they already have which I am all for.
I don't mind the league that much but when people min max I get annoyed. Taking a single ship from a fleet is just annoying it should have to be a equal split between all league worlds not just the gaim and drazi. 2 Empires is not a league it is 2 empires.
I don't mind the league that much but when people min max I get annoyed. Taking a single ship from a fleet is just annoying it should have to be a equal split between all league worlds not just the gaim and drazi. 2 Empires is not a league it is 2 empires.
l33tpenguin
Mongoose
skavendan said:
Well, ISA is already covered with its allies rule. The AoL is still being hammered out. I personally think the AoL should be league + some Narn, Minbari, a few Earth and a good helping of the White Star. After all, the majority of the war was handled by the WS.
For the league, I agree. i don't like seeing the Min Maxing of the fleet. To be honest, I would be happy seeing ONLY a single FAP spent per race. That would give a good helping of diversity. You couldn't just have Drazi and Gaim. In a 5 point game you would have 5 different races.
Actually, I would probably amend that to allow one race to spend 2 FAP, the rest may only spend 1. This gives you the option of buying up for a ship and still gives a 4 race diversity. Also, by requiring a full FAP be spent on each race, players can't take just their favorite ship.
As for the years or ISDs of ships, I think its pretty much fair game that almost everything is avaliable to the league. the only exception, I think, should be ships that are Post ISA. For instance, I don't think you could argue that the league should have access to the Brivoki or Z’Takk. These are ships that came into being well after the League was disbanded and became the ISA.
CZuschlag
Mongoose
I fail to see the need for a separate Army of Light fleet list. Are we going to see an integrated Centauri-Drakh or Centauri-Shadow fleet listing as well? They were allied/co-controlled too .... where is the representation for that?
League does need some fleet limitations, but that can be reflected by date limits in the main, and specific fleet interaction rules for certain specifics. I am distinctly unaware of many co-ordinated League efforts --- I know they all fought the Dilgar, but don't know how many times I can put multiple League ships from different governments in the same place on the same side against the Dilgar. In particular, it seems the Abbai were blockaded and bypassed by the Dilgar early, the Drazi had their own independent front to deal with. I could see where the Markab, Vree, and Brakiri might co-ordinate, but this co-ordination doesn't seem impressive outside of the lines of plot --- not a lot of help went out to relieve the poor Alacans or Balosians!
If there are documented such instances outside of the Army of Light times, please let me know; here, I speak from ignorance.
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Edit: leetpenguin, the largest number of FAP's you can roll up is 10. You therefore would need to support 10 in your formula. By the above, you'd have:
2 FAPx(1 race)
1 FAPx(8 races)
needing 9 total League races. We have 6: Abbai, Brakiri, Drazi, Gaim, pak'ma'ra, and Vree. If we added a few (Hyach!, Cascor!, Ipsha!), we'd be good to go, but right now, we're short.
If you amend to 2 FAP per race, you'd be better off --- although, at 4-something games, you'd still be able to field a lot of two-race fleets.
In campaigns, the logisitics of fielding legal League fleets would get very tricky. Of course, you also get the benefit of all the different Duties charts to do Voodoo with!
League does need some fleet limitations, but that can be reflected by date limits in the main, and specific fleet interaction rules for certain specifics. I am distinctly unaware of many co-ordinated League efforts --- I know they all fought the Dilgar, but don't know how many times I can put multiple League ships from different governments in the same place on the same side against the Dilgar. In particular, it seems the Abbai were blockaded and bypassed by the Dilgar early, the Drazi had their own independent front to deal with. I could see where the Markab, Vree, and Brakiri might co-ordinate, but this co-ordination doesn't seem impressive outside of the lines of plot --- not a lot of help went out to relieve the poor Alacans or Balosians!
If there are documented such instances outside of the Army of Light times, please let me know; here, I speak from ignorance.
---------------
Edit: leetpenguin, the largest number of FAP's you can roll up is 10. You therefore would need to support 10 in your formula. By the above, you'd have:
2 FAPx(1 race)
1 FAPx(8 races)
needing 9 total League races. We have 6: Abbai, Brakiri, Drazi, Gaim, pak'ma'ra, and Vree. If we added a few (Hyach!, Cascor!, Ipsha!), we'd be good to go, but right now, we're short.
If you amend to 2 FAP per race, you'd be better off --- although, at 4-something games, you'd still be able to field a lot of two-race fleets.
In campaigns, the logisitics of fielding legal League fleets would get very tricky. Of course, you also get the benefit of all the different Duties charts to do Voodoo with!
l33tpenguin
Mongoose
CZuschlag said:
Hrm.. HA, you are right, I was thinking 5 point battles (Which would totally work like that!!!)
Hrm... Could possible make a break down of 'if you have X points, you can spend no more than Y points per race and no less than 1 point per race'
So;
1FAP = 1 one point
2FAP = 2 one point
3FAP = 3 one point
4FAP = 2 one point and 1 two points
5FAP = 3 one point and 1 two points
6FAP = 4 one point and 1 two points
7FAP = 3 one point and 2 two points
8FAP = 4 one point and 2 two points
9FAP = 3 one point and 3 two points
10FAP = 4 one point and 3 two points
It really sucks that because of min maxing there is a need to enforce the diversity of the league.
CZuschlag said:
While the Centauri were allied/controlled by the Shadows and then the Drakh, they never fought alongside their masters or even in concert with them.
The Centauri fought FOR them (and without knowing it in the case of the Drakh), but never did their fleets mix.
The Army of Light was a mixed fleet.
l33tpenguin
Mongoose
you could use the same reasoning to say that the Shadows and just about every race in the league are allies and should have mixed race fleets! before Sheridan united them all, they were almost all pushing against one another because of the Shadows
I disagree on that front. While the shadows definitely instigated the league wars they never actively worked for them. The Centauri had direct aid and the Drahk used them directly. Not along side perhaps, but at least in a campaign I would expect them to have at least a special duty available to have a one use type of raid. In the Drahk case the ability to buy Centauri allies and just not field them together unless on your last site or such.
I don't know that Mongooses take on the war is the same as AoG's. The league may or may not have had a number of actions together, it would be hard to say. We actually see a fairly short period of time in the shows, and don't have the majority of the history to go on.
Military alliances seem fairly normal things to do, and I would be surprised if there weren't any. Look at the Drazi/Narn alliance to pound the Centauri.
I haven't gone through the series like I intended to find all the references to the league military actions... maybe I should.
Ripple
I don't know that Mongooses take on the war is the same as AoG's. The league may or may not have had a number of actions together, it would be hard to say. We actually see a fairly short period of time in the shows, and don't have the majority of the history to go on.
Military alliances seem fairly normal things to do, and I would be surprised if there weren't any. Look at the Drazi/Narn alliance to pound the Centauri.
I haven't gone through the series like I intended to find all the references to the league military actions... maybe I should.
Ripple
I'd definitely want to keep the league as an option. But I like the idea of having to spend whole FAPs on a particular race.
How about:
The League Fleet - "Must be made up of 3+ league races" and "Each race must spend whole FAPs (i.e. No splitting FAPs between the component races)". While keeping the current penalties for combined forces and clarifying the current gaps in the rules.
How about:
The League Fleet - "Must be made up of 3+ league races" and "Each race must spend whole FAPs (i.e. No splitting FAPs between the component races)". While keeping the current penalties for combined forces and clarifying the current gaps in the rules.
Foxmeister
Mongoose
What about if the game is 1 Armageddon or 2 War?
Regards,
Dave
Regards,
Dave
As an observation, the Army of Light list in the proposed P&P appears to consist almost exclusively of ships actually seen on TV. For example, the only Minbari capital ship allowed is the Sharlin - no ships made up for the game such as the Leshath or Morshin, and not even the Tinashi which only appeared 1000 years before the main story during "War Without End".
I like Ripple's suggestion of allowing combinations in a campaign. The Centauri might choose to fight for their own glory or ask the Shadows to do some dirty work for them; the Drakh might choose to do their own fighting or command their minions to do it; ditto the Shadows and the Drakh. You probably wouldn't get all three in one campaign, but you could take your choice of two out of the three for the whole campaign, then decide which of the two will fight the next battle.
League diversity vs. whole FAP's: one solution is to say that you can split an FAP between races, but only from the scenario level to the next level down. A War FAP could then split to two Battle FAP's, each of which may then only be spent on one race. So a 2 War scenario can work, but a 1 Armageddon scenario can't - you'll just have to agree to use more than 1 FAP. (Or just say that the League is only available if there are at least 3 FAP's.
)
I like Ripple's suggestion of allowing combinations in a campaign. The Centauri might choose to fight for their own glory or ask the Shadows to do some dirty work for them; the Drakh might choose to do their own fighting or command their minions to do it; ditto the Shadows and the Drakh. You probably wouldn't get all three in one campaign, but you could take your choice of two out of the three for the whole campaign, then decide which of the two will fight the next battle.
League diversity vs. whole FAP's: one solution is to say that you can split an FAP between races, but only from the scenario level to the next level down. A War FAP could then split to two Battle FAP's, each of which may then only be spent on one race. So a 2 War scenario can work, but a 1 Armageddon scenario can't - you'll just have to agree to use more than 1 FAP. (Or just say that the League is only available if there are at least 3 FAP's.
)Some sort of Centauri special campaign rule.
Dealing With The Shadows - You will win the next battle, but you will also lose the campaign. Cry a lot, speak in monologues, be told off and manipulated by three or more opponents, but still lose the campaign in the end. Set whatever you carry your models in on fire during the final round of your campaign, and get extremely drunk.
Dealing With The Shadows - You will win the next battle, but you will also lose the campaign. Cry a lot, speak in monologues, be told off and manipulated by three or more opponents, but still lose the campaign in the end. Set whatever you carry your models in on fire during the final round of your campaign, and get extremely drunk.
