Laboratory vs Scientific Toolkits

cometyo

Mongoose
Hi,

Does anyone have any insight into the practical relationship between a Scientific Toolkit and a Laboratory, particularly how they would impact outcomes in a game?

High Guard refers to the scientific toolkits in its description of a laboratory, suggesting that they overlap somehow, but that's it. The stated cost of equipping a lab is way more expensive than the given cost of a kit, so it's not about equipping the lab. Rules for scientific toolkits don't refer to labs at all.

Scientific toolkits provide DMs for scientific tasks, but labs do not. It looks to me that toolkits and labs were designed under different, implied assumptions.

These are my interpretations:
  • Scientific toolkits are kind of like "portable labs" used in the field for sample collection and on-the-spot-analysis that helps characters solve immediate problems or helps them draw an incremental conclusion that gets them further along in their adventure. Hence the given DMs.
  • Laboratories provide the same benefit as scientific toolkits, but they also represent the more formal, abstract, hand-wavy work that isn't really gamed out but leads characters to big-picture conclusions that impact the overall campaign, or helps them put all the info together in way that is useful to their patron, or helps them publish their work and thereby raise their profile (and their fees). Labs would also allow characters to create small batches of a novel chemical, or construct one-off research equipment, or do other things not possible in the field. But those are all expository outcomes and a bit unsatisfying.
What are some other ideas as to what a laboratory really does?
 
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Toolkits - means of measuring things, extracting data etc, either experimentally or routinely.
Laboratories - provide a controlled environment where the fruits of an experiment may be clearly observed. May include other researcher aids such as documenting, journaling, reporting and presenting.
 
Ideally, Laboratories should be specialized, just like Toolkits. A Physics Lab is way different than an Autopsy Lab. The cost can be the same for all of them, just treat them all as specialized for one field of study. Then give the shipboard labs the same bonus as the toolkit.
 
Thanks for the responses. So one way to look at it would be characters using toolkits in the field would be limited to collecting data and drawing uncertain (and potentially dangerous) conclusions without a lab. And a lab is just a very expensive room if it doesn't have people in the field using toolkits to collect data?

What's an example of a satisfying, high-stakes task that could be rolled in a lab? Maybe something like: "We need something that will take down that 100-tonne predator that's invulnerable to our weapons and has been picking off members of our survey team one by one. I used the lab to roll an uncertain, Formidable task to synthesize a version of that toxin we collected planetside from a flesh-eating invertebrate. It will either disintegrate the monster from the inside or will trigger an enormous burst of murderous aggression from it; I'm not sure which. Who wants to put it in a dart gun and give it a go?"
 
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I guess I'm looking at it as "the adventurous, Indiana-Jones characters are having fun overcoming physical dangers to collect data with their toolkits while the scientists in the lab are doing... what... that would be fun to play out."
 
From High Guard pg 61

LABORATORY
Space allocated to laboratories can be used for research and experimentation, effectively turning the ship into a space-going science vessel.
Every four tons dedicated to laboratories space allows one scientist to perform research on board the ship. The cost for research equipment varies depending on the nature of research undertaken but is generally about MCr1 for every four tons. Refer to the Traveller Core Rulebook for scientific toolkits available.

One of the key ships in our game is the Pioneer Lab Ship, built for SCIENCE (the player always capitalizes it). A standard type L ship with 80 tons committed to research. I have ruled that the sections of the extended lab {the MCr1} is 20 different sections that can be dedicated per research type (biology, astrogation, etc). Each of those scientists has a portable kit they can take out of the lab when they are off doing the hands dirty portion of research.

examples:
  • Eleni Kagaragu (Fomat) (Lead) #2
  • Veronica Sherris #3 - specialist in Sophonts Culture, part time navigator (refered to by Mikhel as Nika)
  • Jörn Diedrichsen #4 - specialist in molecular engineering, part time advocate
  • Harold Hernandez #5 - food scientist, part time?? refuses to be a Steward
    • Five published treatises, at least two on spice control, as of 1104-364 three unpublished works in progress
  • Eduardo Costa Hernández Scientist #6 - specialist in psychology, part time Astrogator
  • Kilee Hörgenshon #7 - specialist in molecular engineering, part time engineer/mechanic
 
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From High Guard pg 61

LABORATORY
Space allocated to laboratories can be used for research and experimentation, effectively turning the ship into a space-going science vessel.
Every four tons dedicated to laboratories space allows one scientist to perform research on board the ship. The cost for research equipment varies depending on the nature of research undertaken but is generally about MCr1 for every four tons. Refer to the Traveller Core Rulebook for scientific toolkits available.

One of the key ships in our game is the Pioneer Lab Ship, built for SCIENCE (the player always capitalizes it). A standard type L ship with 80 tons committed to research. I have ruled that the sections of the extended lab {the MCr1} is 20 different sections that can be dedicated per research type (biology, astrogation, etc). Each of those scientists has a portable kit they can take out of the lab when they are off doing the hands dirty portion of research.

examples:
  • Eleni Kagaragu (Fomat) (Lead) #2
  • Veronica Sherris #3 - specialist in Sophonts Culture, part time navigator (refered to by Mikhel as Nika)
  • Jörn Diedrichsen #4 - specialist in molecular engineering, part time advocate
  • Harold Hernandez #5 - food scientist, part time?? refuses to be a Steward
    • Five published treatises, at least two on spice control, as of 1104-364 three unpublished works in progress
  • Eduardo Costa Hernández Scientist #6 - specialist in psychology, part time Astrogator
  • Kilee Hörgenshon #7 - specialist in molecular engineering, part time engineer/mechanic
That makes sense.
 
So as I'm reviewing everyone's replies and circling around the question I posed, would it be fair say that a lab simply enables a scientist to do science tasks beyond data collection -- "No lab = no science" similarly to "no turret = no gunnery"? And what happens in the lab can be as specific or as hand-wavy as you want, but it does not automatically add any DMs aside from something similar to the toolkits?
 
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Science - observation, measurement, pattern recognition, data logging/cataloging, hypothesis, experiment to test hypothesis, working hypotheses may lead to a law or theory (until someone comes along and disproves your work)

A lab allows for experimentation in controlled conditions, you can, after all, conduct experiments in the field...

a toolkit allows for the observation, measurement and data logging/cataloging --- testing kits, measuring devices, observation devices, collecting vessels, recording devices, data loggers...
 
So as I'm reviewing everyone's replies and circling around the question I posed, would it be fair say that a lab simply enables a scientist to do science tasks beyond data collection -- "No lab = no science" similarly to "no turret = no gunnery"? And what happens in the lab can be as specific or as hand-wavy as you want, but it does not automatically add any DMs aside from something similar to the toolkits?

This is about what I do also.
 
Since the High Guard entry on ship Laboratories refers you to the toolkit section, I would suggest both are usually used together. That is, a toolkit on its own will allow gathering field data with a +1 to tasks; a Lab on its own allows research work. Both together allow research work with a +1 to tasks. Some of the actual tools in a toolkit may not be used in a lab, but the databases and samples collected by using it would be.

Given the low cost of the toolkits, it would also be fair to Ship's Locker them to the Labs. That is, any MCr1 per 4 ton lab will have several MCr0.001 to MCr0.004 toolkits of the appropriate type for use.
 
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My take is this: Lets say you want to investigate a mouse-analog you find on the planet.

Let's say you want to record it's characteristics for posterity. In your 8kg Life Sciences toolkit you probably have a balance. It will need to be a compact design, probably like a spring-balance (though maybe using a load cell instead) and it has a cloth bag for suspending specimens. You pop in the critter and it scrabbles around while you try to read off the constantly changing reading and you decide it weighs between 50-60g. You can't really get much more accurate as it won't sit still and you don't want to hurt it. You have a tape measure and you estimate it is 10-12cm long with a 3cm tail. Again it won't sit still long enough to measure but you get it within a cm or so. You take some video with the camera in the toolkit of some others nearby to monitor their movements. You have no use for other tools in the kit for other specialisms like microbiology, all this takes you about an hour. You also use foldup cage to take it back to the ship for further analysis. All the while you dictate notes into the small tape recorder.

Now you conduct the same activity in the Lab on the ship. First you calibrate the digital scale so that you can get an accuracy to 0.1g. Then you take out one of the dozens of glass specimen tanks with the etched in measurement grid and put it on the scale, and zero it. You plug in the data recorder, set up a video camera to cover the whole tank. You pop in the beasty who starts scrambling around, but is unable to climb the side of the tank. After verifying that he cant escape, you set the data recorder and the video recorder running and after making sure everything is recording properly you go and do something else for an hour. When you come back beasty is still scrabbling but less frantically. You check the data recorder and you get mass readings between zero and 70g. You also find a 5 minute period where the mass remained at a rock steady 53.2g. You check the video footage and see that the beasty was far more active than when it was in the bag and at times jumped up and it's feet left the base of the tank. It was heaviest as it was jumping and the zero mass corresponds to when it wasn't touching the tank at all. The rock steady reading corresponds to the period it was having a rest. You look closely at the footage and find a point where it was optimally placed and on the still of that image are able to determine from the grid that it's body length is 10.8cm and the tail is 2.8cm. You also note that it was active for 5 minutes after you left. It then seemed to relax, only walking slowly and snuffling at the tank. About 25 mins in there was a burst of activity before it reverted to "calm" behaviour and then it was active again 5 minutes before you arrived. You examine more closely and notice it go suddenly still just before scrabbling. The pose on both occasions before it became more active are reminiscent of it suddenly becoming aware of something. Curious you check the ship CCTV and see that the middle period of activity coincided with another crewman walking past the lab. Oddly when a scrub bot passed the lab on full cleaning cycle earlier the creature didn't seem to react. You run the CCTV frame by frame and note that the animal triggered when you were within half a metre of the same point which is also the point it stopped reacting after you first left.

The measurements from the lab were more accurate simply because you are not using fragile compact equipment which has been designed to other criteria than simple accuracy. You were limited to taking opportunity samples. In the lab you didn't even have to be present to conduct the sampling in the lab (automation). Tools were more sophisticated and you had more options just a cupboard away. The lab could control many factors (no wind, known calibration, gravity, air, temperature etc.) You also had access to "always on" sampling that you didn't need to specifically set up to gain to benefit from (CCTV). As a result you not only got precise measurements that would not be possible in the field, but you gained additional information which means you might be able to begin deducing how the animal senses. It probably isn't audio as the bot didn't trigger it, it probably isn't smell as the other crewman wouldn't have triggered it through a closed door. It might be some sort of NAS sense. You would have no way of even suspecting this in the open environment with the limited tools in the kit.

The power of the Lab isn't that it gives a bonus to any specific check (though I would agree that it contains enough equipment to be considered a toolkit for whoever is in it), its real benefit is it allows you more options. If you can describe how you use those tools you will get information that just isn't possible with the toolkit alone. Portable kit tends to be less capable, more fragile and a more awkward to use. You can get by with a portable microscope just fine for short periods and it is better than a magnifying glass. Trying to use one for several hours though is painful. Just having a stable surface to put your microscope down on will be a multiplier.

You may want a mechanic for players who just want to roll a science check in order to get the answer to the riddle rather than tell you how they intend to try solving the riddle. In this case simply say a lab makes things easier and reduce the difficulty of any check (or it could provide a boon). Where players tell me how they are using their skills I will often just allow it to succeed if it sounds credible. If they don't bother to describe what they are doing they'll roll and take the consequences.
 
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Everybody's comments have been very helpful to me so far, and swordtart has provided a level of detail that I would have never thought of., which is helpful because my point of reference for labs is 1) high school science classes (where I probably wasn't paying much attention because I was usually trying to read a sci-fi novels I was hiding behind text books), and 2) superhero movies where characters use their "labs" to create these amazing super-devices in, like, two days, and 3) a couple of casual visits to NASA labs full of equipment that was inscrutable to me. I'm going to think about how to blend what I've learned so far from everyone, but I certainly welcome more comment.
 
From High Guard pg 61

LABORATORY
Space allocated to laboratories can be used for research and experimentation, effectively turning the ship into a space-going science vessel.
Every four tons dedicated to laboratories space allows one scientist to perform research on board the ship. The cost for research equipment varies depending on the nature of research undertaken but is generally about MCr1 for every four tons. Refer to the Traveller Core Rulebook for scientific toolkits available.

One of the key ships in our game is the Pioneer Lab Ship, built for SCIENCE (the player always capitalizes it). A standard type L ship with 80 tons committed to research. I have ruled that the sections of the extended lab {the MCr1} is 20 different sections that can be dedicated per research type (biology, astrogation, etc). Each of those scientists has a portable kit they can take out of the lab when they are off doing the hands dirty portion of research.

examples:
  • Eleni Kagaragu (Fomat) (Lead) #2
  • Veronica Sherris #3 - specialist in Sophonts Culture, part time navigator (refered to by Mikhel as Nika)
  • Jörn Diedrichsen #4 - specialist in molecular engineering, part time advocate
  • Harold Hernandez #5 - food scientist, part time?? refuses to be a Steward
    • Five published treatises, at least two on spice control, as of 1104-364 three unpublished works in progress
  • Eduardo Costa Hernández Scientist #6 - specialist in psychology, part time Astrogator
  • Kilee Hörgenshon #7 - specialist in molecular engineering, part time engineer/mechanic
Can you give me a quick example of how your scientist characters used their labs or equipment during the course of an adventure? And did you use a lot of dice rolls or was it a lot of descriptive story telling on everybody's part?
 
A lab will have most types of scientific equipment for a particular type of scientist. Much of it will have overlap for other fields. It will have bigger, more reliable and robust versions of the stuff in a science toolkit, plus things that are hard to minaturize. There is adequate space to work. For example, a biolab will have computers and work stations, lots of test tubes, dishes and things for holding stuff, pipettes, burners, an autoclave, mass spectrometer to find out what things are made of, refrigerators and freezers, cages for animals, places to grow plants, various tools for handling samples, supplies of chemicals, drugs and maybe some medical gear for taking tissue samples from animals and plants ; lots of other things I forget now or don't know about. If working with dangerous organisms, there will be containment systems. Other things you can add according to tech. Nowadays, a typical lab might have a DNA sequencer (at later TL that might be found in the toolkit too), but 20 years ago this was big money science. Cloning seems to be important in bioscience (refering to microbes ) using CRISPR; this might achieve broader use in science labs later on.

For an exploration ship, they'd probably want to cover a variety of disciplines in one lab, so this is probably reflected in having equipment

A science toolkit will have the things you need in the field, for taking and preserving samples, making observations, and recording them. You can do these things without scientific gear per se, but having a uniform and tight process is important for doing science reliably (i.e. did the DNA you found come from that tooth, or did you accidentally get your own DNA in there?) There might be liquid nitrogen or dry ice storage (nowadays kind of big, but still portable, at higher techs maybe smaller ones are possible ). Little containers for samples. Maybe some medical devices for taking blood, or sap, or whatever, and at higher TLs analysing it. At higher TLs, in addition to sampling tools etc. , I add a little tricorder type device with some sensors and basic analytical capacity - DNA sequencing, medical data, analysis of composition of objects just by waving it close by.
 
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I worked as a lab technician in a technical college. My background was in physics and chemistry but I covered biology and geology and a few more "practical" subjects like "beauty science" - don't ask. We had a cabinet that had around a hundred specialist reagents just for staining biological samples, with fabulous names like Ziehl-Neelsen stain, Rose Bengal and Gentian Violet. I have no idea what they were for, I just checked the stock levels. In a field kit you might have a couple if you were lucky, but in reality you wouldn't make stained samples in the field, it is normally a lab based task, ditto preparing petri dishes, dissecting animal guts, planting test crops etc.

We can also consider the equivalent situation with a carpenters carry bag compared to a carpentry work shop. The bag will have a saw, hammer, maybe a mallet, a carpenters square, spirit level, measure, a hand drill, pencils plus some glue, nails etc. You could repair most things with it, but you would need to improvise ways of holding things. It probably wont have a jack plane as you need a work bench to really get the benefit from that. Many other tools are of only marginal use until you have a proper bench, so much so that the first thing woodworking project books generally get you to make is the work bench. You won't be making fine furniture in any sensible time frame out of just a tool bag.

Now consider the carpentry shop. Several different types of planes alone. Probably a saw table, thicknesser, sander, routing table, a lathe, a big flat surface for gluing up, dozens of clamps in all sizes not to mention racks of wood all ready for use.

Can you make a chair with just the tool bag? Almost certainly, I have seen people make a chair with only a draw knife and a brace and bit. It might be sturdy and could even last a lifetime. Could you make a better looking chair in less time using all those power tools or even hand tools with a proper bench and some decent space? Absolutely, both will be chairs and the skill to make it will be more important than the toolset. You might even sell them for the same price to the right customers, but for one you will work much harder and longer. Your reward will be personal satisfaction and maybe a handcrafted conversation piece rather than a well finished chair that looks like it came out of a furniture factory but you wont spend as much time fishing.

I have made clothes on living history camps with only the stuff I could fit in a carry bag and it is always a challenge as all it takes if for a few needles to break or get lost and you are stuck, in the sewing room we have draws full of needles of all sizes. Just sitting comfortably is hard and once the light goes the only thing for it is to wrap yourself in the fabric you failed to even cut out for want of a flat surface.
 
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Can you give me a quick example of how your scientist characters used their labs or equipment during the course of an adventure? And did you use a lot of dice rolls or was it a lot of descriptive story telling on everybody's part?
Because we do play by post it is a lot of narrative "cooperative storytelling", then pop into Fantasy Grounds for the rolls for something.

While on a Jump to Drinax they did some investigation into duct spiders, looking for details on them, researching species, etc. That was a couple of rolls, then sending out messages for more questions.

We also had one of the NPC researchers conduct a full psychological profile on one of the passengers. We (I) did a bunch of rolls on that for various skills, then wrote up a brief report from her about the passenger.
 
So as I'm reviewing everyone's replies and circling around the question I posed, would it be fair say that a lab simply enables a scientist to do science tasks beyond data collection -- "No lab = no science" similarly to "no turret = no gunnery"? And what happens in the lab can be as specific or as hand-wavy as you want, but it does not automatically add any DMs aside from something similar to the toolkits?
No lab does not equal no science. A scientist can generally look at a phenomena in their field and tell you some things about it; sometimes these things are very important.

1. No gear: Give the scientists a few minutes, scientists can look at something with no lab and no kit and give you some initial impressions which are probably correct, but possibly incorrect, though they will be reluctant to jump to conclusions - if they are any good. This is based on past knowledge.

For example, you see a herd of animals. Animals skill or relevant bioscience roll (e.g. zoology) - should be able to get the referee to tell you what the likely dangers are in approaching them. Is that snake likely to be venomous? Zoology or biology or animals. How about that plant? Botany or survival.

You see a vat of some stinky green liquid. What is it? Is dangerous? Poisonous? Radioactive? Organic? Alive? Should I put it in my mouth? Roll biology, or biochemistry or chemistry or related field.

Are those rocks evidence of valuable mineral deposits on this planetoid? Ask for a science geology roll as the PCs walk past. Or profession Prospector.

Are those orbital interactions with the gas giant about to create a tide that will roll over the beach and TPK your party? Survival (you've seen these kinds of flat before), astrophysics (you'll know the math) or marine biology (to notice the life forms you're walking past are adapted to tidal flats).

2. Kit: Give them an hour, or several, and they'll take some hurried samples or measurements or observations, with their kits, discard erroneous initial assumptions, and give a more accurate and detailed picture, but this is still just a initial idea. It is very likely to be correct, but there may be some important misinterpretations. There may be some details but not many, and not very deep, and the data raise lots of interesting questions which the scientists will want to investigate further. If the initial roll failed here is a chance to correct it.

Example: You find a grave of some local sophononts, roll Sophontology or Archealogy to know what the symbolism in the grave means for the locals (information you give depends a lot on the plot here, but there should be some colour as well to give depth to the local culture). Roll Botany to recognize that the flowers on the grave are not indigenous. With your Science kit, a genetic analysis tells you they come from a nearby star system. Does this mean there are traders or other illegal visitors with these red zone natives? Or is it an older invasive species? The age of the objects in the grave can be determined using carbon dating, and other methods.

3. Full laboratory: If any initial rolls failed, they can be corrected with a good roll here. I would generally give DMs based on the initial rolls, since they might hive off in the wrong direction, or not, based on first impressions. Give them a lab and weeks or months and they'll have written a research article and submitted it to the Letters of the Imperial Society of Archaeology and Sophontology, received a Revise and Submit, and will be complaining about the idiocy of Anonymous Reviewer #2, who thinks they should return to the site and collect more samples to really prove their point. There will be a lot of detail and certainty on most questions, which will mostly fit into settled science and so be uncontroversial, but debates will emerge about some specific ambiguous areas. These areas of uncertainty may or may not be related to things the non-scientist PCs care about (i.e. they could be issues of great importance to the Party, or they might be only important to scientific circles, while practical minded PCs are only interested in the contextual data) They will have a plausible and well-thought out answer to many related questions, and generate lot of new questions, for which they can apply to for a research grant from the Imperial Society

Example from the aforementioned gravesite: In your lab, you can dig up the grave and simultaneously have different people work with several different bits of the grave, the geneticist can work on the tissues to see who the person was related to, the characteristics of the deceased, and find out about the other living matter put in the grave, the archeologist can give you some info about the locals' customs, written language or symbols and what can be inferred about their society, and the biologists materials scientist, chemist can tell you about the objects in the grave, technologies, local resources, trade relations. Since they can work in the same space, and will have access to published literature via their computers, they can cooperate, look things up (which is really, really, really important, even if this group hasn't been studied before, since they can compare with similar groups, find out new ideas of techniques and methods for analysis of the kind of data they have). The science team will be able to produce a report to the players with mostly accurate data about the social status of the person buried, possibly who they are related to, what they ate, perhaps local use of violence, some local customs, local mineral availability, local technologies, trade relations, what they use for money, local language. The level of accuracy and detail depends on what is in the grave but a lot can be inferred. The picture will be only partial but the data can be cross indexed with other data for more accuracy and depth of understanding (for example, orbital observations, IISS reports, biosphere data).
 
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