Knowledge: Mystery

[Stygian Devout]

The Stygia and Faith & Fervor books introduced this skill and details the mysteries of the Hyborian Age gods. The bonuses granted by the mysteries can be pretty nice!

I think the detail put into the mysteries of the individual gods is pretty cool, and I find myself planning character builds around them. Feats like Religiously Driven can allow one to move up through the skill ranks without level limits.

I'm a little surprised I haven't see this topic come up before here... I'd be curious to hear of some of the uses others have put this highly interesting skill to...

 

[kintire]

It is a very useful skill, and one that I myself use extensively, although with some modifications. The slight problem I have with it is that most of the mysteries have been produced on the assumption that the gods do not in fact exist, but are personifications of fundamental forces and concepts. many of the higher mysteries involve understanding that while Set, for example, does not as such exist the concepts he represents are integral to the universe. I find this idea very difficult to square with Howard's works, where gods are treated very much as definite beings, one is even killed, and they generally seem much more like Lovecraftian Great Old Ones rather than conceptual entities. I therefore fiddle with the mysteries, especially the higher level mysteries, appropriatly.

Also, I resist the idea that ALL religions are mystery religions. Mitra, for example, is not (in my campaign). Howard clearly defines him as different from other deities' cults, and despite the similarity in names Mitra rather obviously owes more to Christianity than Mithraism.

 

[Majestic7]

Also, I resist the idea that ALL religions are mystery religions. Mitra, for example, is not (in my campaign). Howard clearly defines him as different from other deities' cults, and despite the similarity in names Mitra rather obviously owes more to Christianity than Mithraism.

All religions are clearly not mystery religions. However, I can easily see Mitra being one. You can understand mysteries more broadly, rather in the sense of specialised, complex theology the structure of a mystery cult. Mitra seems to fit to that bill - and they certainly have secrets known only to the senior priests, such as Epimitreus. As a real life example, even though Christianity in general is not a mystery religion, I think Mystery (Catholicism) would be okay since they have a such complex pantheon of saints, rules and miracles.

Heh, it is a sort of humorous to note that Howards Mitra owes much to Christianity, as in our world it is Christianity that owes to Mithraism (and other Middle-Eastern mystery cults) most of its dogmas...

 

[kintire]

All religions are clearly not mystery religions. However, I can easily see Mitra being one. You can understand mysteries more broadly, rather in the sense of specialised, complex theology the structure of a mystery cult. Mitra seems to fit to that bill - and they certainly have secrets known only to the senior priests, such as Epimitreus.

Having some sensitive secrets doth not a Mystery make. Mysteries are secret doctrines unknown to the normal worshipper, and frequently (apparently) contradicting the public versions. Any large organisation has secrets, but the presence of Epimetreus in Golamira doesn't actually matter to any Mitraic doctrines.

As a real life example, even though Christianity in general is not a mystery religion, I think Mystery (Catholicism) would be okay since they have a such complex pantheon of saints, rules and miracles.

They do, but none of them are concealed, hidden or restricted to senior members of the faith. It may be that few people actually know some of the obscure stuff, but they won't have any difficulty in finding out if they happen to want to know. Knowledge of this kind of thing would be Knowledge (Catholic Religion), not a Mystery.

Heh, it is a sort of humorous to note that Howards Mitra owes much to Christianity, as in our world it is Christianity that owes to Mithraism (and other Middle-Eastern mystery cults) most of its dogmas...

Actually, that's a 19th century vintage urban myth. Christianity's doctrines bear no resemblance to any known Mystery religion: they are largely derived from Judaism with some original material relating to the divinity of Christ.

 

[Majestic7]

Having some sensitive secrets doth not a Mystery make. Mysteries are secret doctrines unknown to the normal worshipper, and frequently (apparently) contradicting the public versions. Any large organisation has secrets, but the presence of Epimetreus in Golamira doesn't actually matter to any Mitraic doctrines.

That is a matter of personal taste, since REH does not write to either direction. It isn't really said anywhere that everyone would know all details of the doctrine either.

They do, but none of them are concealed, hidden or restricted to senior members of the faith. It may be that few people actually know some of the obscure stuff, but they won't have any difficulty in finding out if they happen to want to know. Knowledge of this kind of thing would be Knowledge (Catholic Religion), not a Mystery.

Again, this depends on how you define the knowledge. In the medieval times, when comparatively few people could read, much less have an opportunity to study theology, it could have been a Mystery skill. I'm simply saying that you can interpret the skill with a wider scope in order to include more things underneath it for a more interesting game even if it does not fulfill the literal meaning of "Mystery" in the religious sense. Mystery skill for Mitra gives a good side bonus for actually having a religious character fervently believing in Mitra.

Actually, that's a 19th century vintage urban myth. Christianity's doctrines bear no resemblance to any known Mystery religion: they are largely derived from Judaism with some original material relating to the divinity of Christ.

Oh c'mon. Osiris/Horus, Dionysos, Mithra, Zorastrianism and a dozen other far older religions have virgin birth, resurrection in the third day, saving souls through blood of a willing sacrifice and other similar core doctrines. Then there are little details like the three sages and birthday of the saviour as 25th of December that are present in other, older religions. What comes to the basis of Judaism, Matthew writes clearly for a Jewish audience fulfilling their prophecies while Luke makes salvation available for all, even for non-Jews and clearly takes a lot of stuff from those other Middle-Eastern myths. The gospels contradict each other on many details, depending on whether they try to fulfill Jewish prophecies or appeal to a more generic myths very common in the area.

Even early Christians like Justin Martyr recognized the similarities - Martyr claimed that the older "pagan religions" were "diabolically imitating" Christianity centuries before it was born because they were trying to discredit it before it even existed, hehe.

 

[kintire]

That is a matter of personal taste, since REH does not write to either direction. It isn't really said anywhere that everyone would know all details of the doctrine either.

We don't have the details, but Mitra is clearly distinct from other deities:

Yasmela had a vague idea that, being very ancient, it followed that the deity was very terrible. Ishtar was much to be feared, and all the gods of Koth. Kothian culture and religion had suffered from a subtle admix ture of Shemite and Stygian strains. The simple ways of the Hyborians had become modified to a large extent by the sensual, luxurious, yet despotic habits of the East.

"This is but the emblem of the god. None pretends to know what Mitra looks like. This but represents him in idealized human form, as near perfection as the human mind can conceive. He does not inhabit this cold stone, as your priests tell you Ishtar does. He is everywhere — above us, and about us, and he dreams betimes in the high places among the stars. But here his being focusses. Therefore call upon him."

Again, this depends on how you define the knowledge. In the medieval times, when comparatively few people could read, much less have an opportunity to study theology, it could have been a Mystery skill.

The concept of a Mystery is that as you learn more about and rise within the cult, you learn the "true" doctrines. This gives you a greater understanding of and thus power over the world. Catholic doctrines were exactly what was laid out in church every Sunday, regardless of the complexity of theology.

I'm simply saying that you can interpret the skill with a wider scope in order to include more things underneath it for a more interesting game even if it does not fulfill the literal meaning of "Mystery" in the religious sense. Mystery skill for Mitra gives a good side bonus for actually having a religious character fervently believing in Mitra.

Oh, you certainly can, and in fact that's what I've done. But it involves significant tinkering with the descriptions of the skill, and how you achieve it.

Oh c'mon. Osiris/Horus, Dionysos, Mithra, Zorastrianism and a dozen other far older religions have virgin birth, resurrection in the third day, saving souls through blood of a willing sacrifice and other similar core doctrines. Then there are little details like the three sages and birthday of the saviour as 25th of December that are present in other, older religions.

I would caution you very strongly against getting your ideas on this kind of thing solely from the internet. This is amyth which is fiercely supported on several websites, but by no scholars, and it is utterly wrong. This isn't the place to go into this, but as a few examples, none of the religions you mention above actually have any of the elements you cite. Osiris and Horus both ahve genealogies and were concieved by the union of a god and a goddess. Osiris had to be reanimated to concieve his heir, Horus, post mortem, but he then proceeded to the underworld as usual (in Egyptian tales). He was never resurected, but ruled over the dead. he wasn't a willing sacrifice, he was murdered by treachery. Dionysos doesn't even get that close, until the arrival of the Orphic cult where he does acquire some of these characteristics, but they started in the 3rd century AD. Mithra (who is a different deity from Mithras, by the way) was born from a god and a goddess, and never died. Mithras emerged fully grown from a rock, and never died. Zoroaster was born as normal, was murdered, and styaed dead. etc etc.

 

[VincentDarlage]

I think the detail put into the mysteries of the individual gods is pretty cool, and I find myself planning character builds around them. Feats like Religiously Driven can allow one to move up through the skill ranks without level limits.

I'm a little surprised I haven't see this topic come up before here... I'd be curious to hear of some of the uses others have put this highly interesting skill to...

Thank you. I am glad you are getting some inspiration out of it. I use it a lot to flesh out cults and other secret societies in my games.

 

[VincentDarlage]

The slight problem I have with it is that most of the mysteries have been produced on the assumption that the gods do not in fact exist, but are personifications of fundamental forces and concepts.

It is difficult to write of religions in which the gods are real, and in which everyone knows 100% certain they are real since I have no real life religions in which this is the case to draw from. If Mitra is treated as real, and if Set is treated as real, and everyone knows 100% for sure they are real, then Mitra and Set should therefore be part of every pantheon in the world. If they only reveal themselves to a chosen few, however, then that can be easily handled through the latter stages of the mysteries. I just don't think religions are created to reflect actual truth, but to preserve and protect a culture.

I also don't think the reality of the gods is something most people experience first-hand (even in the Hyborian age), so most religions (if not all) are bunk to begin with. It seems to me that most people join the religion they are basically born into: If born in Aquilonia, they are likely to be Mitran. If born in the Black Kingdoms, probably not. Even in the real world, one's family determines more about their religious beliefs than actual truth.

In my campaigns, I leave it up in the air whether they are real or not, or if they are just all super-powered spaghetti-monsters who really don't represent what people's religions have made them represent. Indeed, if you take out one sentence from page 18, 2nd column, then Mitra can be real. Take an inkpen and slowly scratch that sentence out...

Ultimately, though, it was just easier for me to conceptualize and write the religion in that manner, but, as you mentioned, can be adjusted to fit the other view.

Also, I resist the idea that ALL religions are mystery religions.

I don't think I state ANYWHERE in that book that ALL religions are mystery religions. Indeed, I see that starting on page 3 of the book I list mystical religions, nature religions, prophetic religions, revealed religions, sacramental religions, and tribal religions. So the author of the book also resists the idea that they are ALL mystery religions.

In "The Phoenix on the Sword", the priest says, "It is one of the Mysteries, on which Mitra's cult stands." This comment (in which REH capitalized the word "mysteries") inspired me to create the Mysteries of Mitra.

I could have left Mitra's religion as a prophetic religion (oracles, visions, and the like, which would be the truer to REH's presentation), but there were some comics that I enjoyed that actually have things like "brides of Mitra" (page 16), so I explored the religion from a slightly different angle. Further, I wanted the religion to be a little more interactive with the player. Surely not everyone who believes in Mitra gets a vision, or is told a true prophecy by an oracle - if that were the case, then everyone would join! However, that doesn't leave much for the Player Character who wants to explore the religion to do.

However, one could argue the Mitra religion started out prophetic, but then was, over time, perverted into the mystery form seen in the book by people who never really experienced the true divinity of Mitra ("The simple ways of the Hyborians had become modified to a large extent by the sensual, luxurious, yet despotic habits of the East"). I see no reason why a Mitra mystery cult couldn't exist alongside a purer, prophetic Mitran religion. I could see a neat little war brewing because of it. Just looking at all the various sects of Christianity, I can easily see various forms of Mitraism - and the great conflicts such variety would cause!

Sometimes when I get inspired I may do too much, but such is the price of inspiration, which was the point of the book to begin with. If the book inspires a good game, then I did my job.

Anyway, I think this thread is really digressing from Stygian Devout's first idea for the thread: "I'd be curious to hear of some of the uses others have put this highly interesting skill to..."

I am equally curious, and hope the thread takes that route.

 

[kintire]

It is difficult to write of religions in which the gods are real, and in which everyone knows 100% certain they are real since I have no real life religions in which this is the case to draw from. If Mitra is treated as real, and if Set is treated as real, and everyone knows 100% for sure they are real, then Mitra and Set should therefore be part of every pantheon in the world.

That doesn't follow at all. Just because everybody thinks, or knows, a god is real doesn't mean people have to worship them. We are not talking about gods as omnipotent omniscient beings here (well, possibly except Mitra and even then such claims are not accepted outside the faith). To call on a similar author's world, Cthulhu really exists, but that doesn't mean that everyone who realises that fact joins his cult!

I don't think I state ANYWHERE in that book that ALL religions are mystery religions. Indeed, I see that starting on page 3 of the book I list mystical religions, nature religions, prophetic religions, revealed religions, sacramental religions, and tribal religions. So the author of the book also resists the idea that they are ALL mystery religions.

Unfotunately not everyone follows the author's cue, and there are reasons. Namely, as it stands following a mystery religion provides real benefits in terms of cool special abilities, whereas the other types of religion do not.

Anyway, I think this thread is really digressing from Stygian Devout's first idea for the thread: "I'd be curious to hear of some of the uses others have put this highly interesting skill to..."

I have generalised the skill and I usually call it "devotion" or something. This way, it can apply to any religion. Building up the skill can mean progressing in the mysteries, or winning the favour of the spirits, or increasing your piety or whatever. I find it very useful for providing a degree of mystique to priests without having to make all of them sorcerers. It works well for characters like Nabonidus the Red Priest from "Rogues in the House" who are clearly more than simply a scholar with a title, but don't seem to have any sorcerous power.

 

[VincentDarlage]

That doesn't follow at all. Just because everybody thinks, or knows, a god is real doesn't mean people have to worship them. We are not talking about gods as omnipotent omniscient beings here (well, possibly except Mitra and even then such claims are not accepted outside the faith). To call on a similar author's world, Cthulhu really exists, but that doesn't mean that everyone who realises that fact joins his cult!

Ah, but Cthulhu isn't really a god in the traditional sense, is he? And putting Mitra or Set in that light works with the mysteries as I wrote them - the Stygian religion teaches that Set has their interests at heart, but at the highest mystery, one might learn Set is real - but doesn't really have any interest in people in the way the religion teaches it.

I couldn't find a way to write about Mitra as the Mitrans believe without offering proof to anyone who looks that Mitra is real - the oracle scene in "Black Colossus" is a weird event to my mind, not a normal one, so I went the other route, preserving the weird moments a Game Master might throw in to prove the standard thinking wrong as something really bizarre and unexpected. I wanted the weird tales to remain weird.

In a world where magic works, it is hard to preserve a sense of the miraculous, so I wanted the events of Black Colossus and Phoenix on the Sword to remain in the miraculous realm.

To go a bit further, if I openly declare Mitra a real god, then why am I judging that the others (say the Shemite or Hyrkanian gods) are not? Then I have to come up with a cosmology where all the gods are potentially real (which they might be, if they are all Mythos things) and living in the cosmos together - the last thing I wanted was to make the Hyborian age sound like D&D where all the gods are pretty much living together and interacting in the "outer planes." Anyway, it was easier to write them as not necessarily real, but GMs can make their pet god as real as they want, or develop their own cosmology. I figure even if the gods (or some of them) are real, humans would have so little real understanding of them, their religions would probably not have any bearing on the truth - thus the mysteries for the religions that are scholarly enough to have people who have approached the reality of the situation.

I have generalised the skill and I usually call it "devotion" or something. This way, it can apply to any religion. Building up the skill can mean progressing in the mysteries, or winning the favour of the spirits, or increasing your piety or whatever. I find it very useful for providing a degree of mystique to priests without having to make all of them sorcerers. It works well for characters like Nabonidus the Red Priest from "Rogues in the House" who are clearly more than simply a scholar with a title, but don't seem to have any sorcerous power.

I like that! That is an inspired use of the idea. Does each religion get different results (does a devout Pictish shaman get different powers than the Stygian priest)? Now my mind is reeling with possibilities. You guys on this board continually provide a lot of inspiration. One of the reasons I developed the mysteries was to give some kind of usefulness to Knowledge (religion). I like how you took the idea even further.

 

[kintire]

Ah, but Cthulhu isn't really a god in the traditional sense, is he?

Well, he isn't very nice, but he is actually quite close to a god in the traditional sense. Until Plato came along, after all, the Greek gods were powerful individuals who lived on Olympus, and could be tricked, wounded and even killed. And I would say that Cthulhu is the epitome of a Hyborian diety. Look at the three we actually meet: Khosatral Khel, Ollam Onga and the Old God.

I couldn't find a way to write about Mitra as the Mitrans believe without offering proof to anyone who looks that Mitra is real - the oracle scene in "Black Colossus" is a weird event to my mind, not a normal one, so I went the other route, preserving the weird moments a Game Master might throw in to prove the standard thinking wrong as something really bizarre and unexpected. I wanted the weird tales to remain weird.

Perhaps. Mitra does represent more of a problem than most. In my campaign no one doubts that he is real (well, not many people) but his claims of divine supremacy are not widely accepted outside his cult.

Does each religion get different results (does a devout Pictish shaman get different powers than the Stygian priest)?

Well... Yes, in theory. The devout Pictish Shaman would get relatively minor powers, usually, but he would have a wide variety of them and no two shaman need have the same. The Stygian priest would get potent abilities, but he wouldn't get to pick (he would get the abilities from Mystery: Set in fact). The idea being that the shaman feels he can ally with a variety of totem spirits, while the priest gets less choice, but focus brings power. Each religion type would have a variation on this.

I say in theory because it is a fact that the degree to which these grandiose designs actually see fruition depends a lot on how much prep time I get for the game!

One of the reasons I developed the mysteries was to give some kind of usefulness to Knowledge (religion). I like how you took the idea even further.

Well, It was a brilliant idea, and unlike me you actually put the work in to flesh it out!

 

[VincentDarlage]

Well, he isn't very nice, but he is actually quite close to a god in the traditional sense. Until Plato came along, after all, the Greek gods were powerful individuals who lived on Olympus, and could be tricked, wounded and even killed. And I would say that Cthulhu is the epitome of a Hyborian diety.

I agree there. I have fleshed out some Cthulhu cults for my Hyborian age game, but didn't put them into Faith & Fervour because I didn't know if that would be allowed from a licensing standpoint.

Although I did mention Yig and the Great Old Ones in Set's Fourth Mystery, in which the Keeper of that Mystery learns about them. I don't think I said a thing about them not being real, and I don't think any of the mysteries teach about Set not being real, either - but I did try to hint that he is a Mythos god with that mystery.

 

[Ichabod]

I have generalised the skill and I usually call it "devotion" or something. This way, it can apply to any religion. Building up the skill can mean progressing in the mysteries, or winning the favour of the spirits, or increasing your piety or whatever. I find it very useful for providing a degree of mystique to priests without having to make all of them sorcerers. It works well for characters like Nabonidus the Red Priest from "Rogues in the House" who are clearly more than simply a scholar with a title, but don't seem to have any sorcerous power.

I like that! That is an inspired use of the idea. Does each religion get different results (does a devout Pictish shaman get different powers than the Stygian priest)? Now my mind is reeling with possibilities. You guys on this board continually provide a lot of inspiration. One of the reasons I developed the mysteries was to give some kind of usefulness to Knowledge (religion). I like how you took the idea even further.

I don't see how creating new skills makes existing skills more useful. Rather than creating a whole host of K-M skills, I'd rather have just seen more interpretation in K: Religion. We use K: Religion all of the time, it's nowhere near as useless as K: Nobility or Perform: not-Ritual or Craft: not-Herbalism/Alchemy or Profession: whatever. More skills exacerbates the problem that there are already way too few skill ranks per level to make characters fit certain concepts.

Rather than K-M, wouldn't it have been just as easy to say: If you have 3+ skill ranks in K: Religion and belong to the cult of Set, you get ABC goodies; if you have 8+ skill ranks in K: Religion and belong to the cult of Set, you get DEF goodies; etc.

I also really didn't like the idea that only some religions got mystery powers. I realize some religions are much better fleshed out than others and that GMs can make up whatever they want using what's been printed as examples, but it felt biased. This idea of a general Devotion mechanic seems much more fair.

 

[VincentDarlage]

Well, my thought is that a mystery knowledge replaces religion as a knowledge category for a mystery religion - it is just a specialised Knowledge (religion), but writing Knowledge (religion (mystery:Set)) was too long (which is the first way I had it). So, to my mind, it is just a specific interpretation of Knowledge (religion).

Also, the Stygian cults are not set up that a person cannot belong to more than one, so your system, while it works if a person is a member of just one temple, gets complicated when one is a member of more than one cult.

As for leaving out the less fleshed out religions, I just didn't come upon the idea that kintire did.

 

[VincentDarlage]

Here are three examples of Stygian villains I have used that belong to more than one cult, which is why I needed a more specific way of using Knowledge (religion).

Setem-h'et, High Priest of the Temple of Tashent-hat-hor
Medium Stygian (9th level Scholar /1st level Lord of the Black Ring)
Climate/Terrain: Stygia, the Black Kingdoms
Organization: Cult
Initiative: +5 (+2 Dex, +3 Ref)
Languages: Stygian, Kushite, Shemite
Senses: Listen +3, Spot +3
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Dodge Defence: 15 (+3 level, +2 Dex)
Hit Points: 45 (10d6+10 HD)
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +13 (+4 vs. Corruption)
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Speed: 30 ft.
Melee: Bronze short sword +6/+1 melee (1d8/ 19-20 x2/ AP 0)
Ranged: Stygian bow +9/+4 (1d12/ 19-20 x2/ AP2)
Ranged: Alchemical weapon +8/+3 (damage depends on weapon used)
Base Atk+6/+1 Grapple: +6
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Abilities: Str 10, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 18
Special Qualities: Stygian traits, scholar, background (lay priest), base power points, knowledge is power, +3 power points, iron will, increased maximum power points (triple), scholar levels, demonologist, defensive blast (master, aid me!)
Feats: Leadership, Opportunistic Sacrifice, Priest, Ritual Sacrifice, Steely Gaze, Summoner, Tortured Sacrifice
Skills: Bluff +13*, Concentration +10, Craft (alchemy) +10, Craft (herbalism) +5, Decipher Script +15, Handle Animal +9, Intimidate +17*, Knowledge (arcana) +18, Knowledge (local) +5, Knowledge (Mystery: Set) +16, Knowledge (Mystery: Sobek) +9, Knowledge (rumours) +10, Perform (Ritual) +18*, Profession (priest) +16, Search +7, Sleight-of-Hand +10 (* may add +7 when using these skills against NPCs due to his Corruption)
Reputation: 54 (Brave)
Leadership: 15 (7th level cohort; 60 1st level, 2 2nd level, 1 3rd level follower)
Allegiances: Temple of Set, Temple of Sobek, Temple of Tashent-hat-hor
Base Power Points: 10 (4 base, +3 Wis, +3 bonus; 30 maximum)
Magical Attack: +8 (+4 level, +4 Cha)
Sorcery Styles & Spells Known: Summoning: demonic pact, master – aid me!, summon demon; Necromancy: raise corpse, death touch, black plague, agonizing doom; Divination: astrological prediction, visions, sorcerous news, visions of torment and enlightenment; Hypnotism: entrance, domination, hypnotic suggestion, mass hypnotic suggestion
Corruption: 6 Insanity: None
Possessions: Bronze short sword, Stygian bow with 20 arrows, bronze knife, priestly mantle (silk), linen half-pleated kilt, 2 doses of Stygian tomb dust, papyrus sandals, transparent linen over-kilt, 2 doses of Acheronian demon-fire, 2 doses of lotus greensmoke, 1 dose of lotus blacksmoke.
Advancement: By character class (probably scholar or lord of the black ring prestige class)

Setem-h'et full title is High Priest of the Temple of Tashent-hat-hor, Overseer of the Priests of Astrology in the House of the Black Ring, Keeper of Set's 4th Mystery, Overseer of the Unnu Priests in the Temple of Sobek, Keeper of Sobek's Second Mystery, and Acolyte Årit Priest in the House of the Black Ring, Sorcerer of the Black Ring.

Setem-h'et, a sorcerer of the Black Ring, is always concerned with purity; he washes daily and has his body hair entirely removed. He is tall and skinny – almost skeletal. He is dusky skinned and has a pronounced hawk-like nose. Setem-h'et must always be in charge; he fears losing control and despises boredom. He is demanding and unfriendly. He is brave and always willing to go into unknown territories and explore new concepts – often because if he is there first he is in charge. He does not work well with others unless the others are taking his orders. However, he is well known and respected throughout the ranks of clergy in Stygia for his ability to get things done and for achieving new results when the old ways fail.

Setem-h'et is usually accompanied by his cohort, Key-nebu, a scribe. Most of Setem-h'et's followers are temple servants and phyle priests spread throughout several temple complexes as spies. He is not travelling with 60 1st level followers. He does travel with a 3rd level soldier follower named Shesmutifi and a pair of 2nd level soldiers named Djeho and Tanenmose.

Teti-sheri, Right Eye of Tashent-hat-hor
Medium Stygian (11th level temptress)
Climate/Terrain: Stygia, the Black Kingdoms
Organization: Cult
Initiative: +10 (+3 Dex, +7 Ref)
Languages: Stygian, Kushite, Keshani, Shemite, Hyrkanian, Old Stygian, Demonic
Senses: Listen +2, Spot +2
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Dodge Defence: 17 (+5 level, +3 Dex)
Hit Points: 46 (10d6+1+10 HD)
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +10, Will +9 (+1 vs. Corruption)
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Speed: 30 ft.
Ranged: Alchemical weapon +12/+7 (damage depends on weapon used)
Melee: Bronze dagger +11 finesse (1d4-1 plus poison / 19-20 x2/ AP 1)
Base Atk +8/+3 Grapple: +8
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Abilities: Str 10, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 18
Special Qualities: Stygian traits, comeliness, savoir-faire, seductive art +3, compelling performance 3/day, secret art (sorcery), seductive savant (diplomacy), binding contract, improved secret art, admirers, inspire, outrageous flattery, advanced secret art, exquisite
Feats: Carouser, Dabbler (curses), Debaucher, Point Blank Shot, Performer, Poison Use, Striking Cobra
Skills: Bluff +14*, Craft (alchemy) +7, Diplomacy +25, Gather Information +22, Handle Animal +6 (+8 with snakes), Intimidate +24*, Knowledge (arcana) +11, Knowledge (local) +5, Knowledge (nature) +7, Knowledge (Mystery: Derketo) +17, Knowledge (Mystery: Set) +17, Knowledge (rumours) +7, Move Silently +5, Perform (Ritual) +28*, Perform (dance) +25, Perform (sing) +17, Profession (priest) +7, Profession (scribe) +6, Sense Motive +8, Sleight-of-Hand +14, Tumble +9 (* may add +6 when using these skills against NPCs due to her Corruption)
Reputation: 19
Allegiances: Temple of Derketo, Temple of Set, Temple of Tashent-hat-hor
Base Power Points: 8 (2 base, +2 Wis, +2 advanced secret art, +2 dabbler; 16 maximum)
Magical Attack: +9 (+2 level, +4 Cha, +3 seductive art)
Sorcery Styles & Spells Known: Hypnotism: entrance, domination, hypnotic suggestion
Corruption: 6 Insanity: None
Possessions: Bronze dagger, priestly mantle (transparent linen), half-pleated kilt, string of beads worn about the hips, kohl, papyrus sandals, belt with two pouches (for alchemical weapons), 2 doses of Stygian tomb dust, 2 doses of Acheronian demon-fire, 1 dose of lotus greensmoke, 1 dose of lotus blacksmoke, 5 doses of black lotus blossoms, 2 doses of black lotus juice, 1 dose of purple lotus juice.
Advancement: By character class (probably temptress or scholar)

Teti-sheri's full title is Right Eye of Tashent-hat-hor, High Tcheseru Priestess of the Cult of Tashent-hat-hor, Mistress of the Secrets of Tashent-hat-hor's Tomb, Keeper of Derketo's 4th Mystery, Keeper of Set's 4th Mystery, Third Seducer of Yig in the Temple of Set at Luxur, Judge of Derketo's Acolytes, Judge of Derketo's Umet Priestesses, Overseer of Derketo's Dancers in Luxur, High Priestess of Set's Dancers in Luxur, Chooser of Prostitutes in Derketo's Temple in Luxur, and Acolyte Tcheseru Priestess in Derketo's Temple in Luxur.

Teti-sheri is a charming cultist from Luxur, often described by those who know her as daring and enthusiastic. Her goals usually have to do with gaining the upper hand on those around her so she can influence and/or control them. She never wants to appear in a weak position. Teti-sheri is impatient and somewhat disorganized. In her usual Stygian circles, she generally only wears paint and a string of beads around her waist, but when adventuring or in other lands, she usually chooses to wear a kilt with a belt to hold some weapons. Her bronze dagger, an ornate affair featuring an image of Derketo as the handle with some gemstones, is usually poisoned with either black lotus or purple lotus juice. The bottom of her dagger's scabbard holds a dose of poison so it is poisoned when she draws it.

She joined Tashent-hat-hor's cult to learn the Immortality style of sorcery. She intends to learn some levels of scholar to achieve this. She has been promised this training if she can secure three of Tashent-hat-hor's funerary trappings.

As a Keeper of the Fourth Mystery of Derketo, Teti-sheri can add +4 to any Bluff and Diplomacy checks that she is able to add some component of sexuality to, including seductions, flirtations, or otherwise using her sexuality to get her way. This has not been reflected in the skill statistics included with the character. For those who have Stygia – Serpent of the South, she also has the power of touch as described under the third mystery of Derketo. All other modifiers described in Stygia – Serpent of the South for her knowledge of Derketo's and Set's mysteries have been added to the statistics already.

Hetepka the Physician
Medium Humanoid Stygian (13th level scholar)
Climate/Terrain: Tombalku, Stygia
Organization: Solitary
Initiative: +6 (+2 Dex, +4 Ref)
Languages: Stygian, Tombalku, Shemite
Senses: Listen +2, Spot +2
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Dodge Defence: 16 (+4 level, +2 Dex)
Hit Points: 38 (10d6+3 HD)
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +6, Will +12 (+7 vs. Corruption)
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Speed: 30 ft.
Melee: Dagger +10/+5 (1d4+1/19-20 x2/ AP 2)
Ranged: Alchemical Weapon +11/+6 (varies)
Base Atk+9/+4 Grapple: +10
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Abilities: Str 12, Dex 14, Con 10, Int 16, Wis 15, Cha 20
Special Qualities: Stygian traits, iron will, five sorcery styles, eleven advanced spells, three bonus spells, +3 power points, scholar, background (lay priest), knowledge is power, base power points, increased maximum power points (quadruple), defensive blast (not this day), defensive blast (chill of the grave)
Feats: Keeper of the Fourth Mystery of Yinepu*, Persuasive, Priest, Ritual Sacrifice, Skill Focus (profession (mummifier)), Stygian Physician*, Surgery*, Tortured Sacrifice
Skills: Bluff +14, Craft (alchemy) +15, Craft (glassworking) +7, Craft (herbalism) +15, Craft (jewellery) +7, Craft (painting) +7, Craft (woodworking & carpentry) +7, Decipher Script +8, Diplomacy +21, Heal +14, Handle Animal +4, Intimidate +13, Knowledge (arcana) +17, Knowledge (engineering) +4, Knowledge (local) +5, Knowledge (mystery: Set) +12, Knowledge (mystery: Djehuty) +12, Knowledge (mystery: Seshet) +9, Knowledge (mystery: Yinepu) +19, Knowledge (nature) +13, Perform (ritual) +20, Profession (mummifier) +20, Profession (scribe) +6, Sense Motive +4, Sleight-of-Hand +4
Code of Honour: None
Reputation: 46
Allegiances: Temple of Yinepu, Temple of Set, Cult of Nebrenenutet
Base Power Points: 9 (4 base, +2 Wis, +3 bonus; 36 maximum)
Magical Attack: +11 (+6 level, +5 Cha)
Sorcery Styles & Spells Known: Divination: astrological prediction, not this day, visions, dream of wisdom; Curses: lesser ill-fortune, doom, ill-fortune, greater ill-fortune; Nature Magic: summon beast, sorcerous garden, spirit of the land; Necromancy: raise dead, chill of the grave, the dead speak, death touch, agonising doom, black plague; Counterspells: warding, ward dwelling
Corruption: 3
Possessions: White linen robe with full, open sleeves and an embroidered pattern on the edge, sash, turban, dagger, the nuh-nun medical papyrus, the nepu henay quesu papyrus, the funeral trappings of Queen Nebrenenutet (a Stygian mummy), 3 doses of lotus blacksmoke, 2 doses of Acheronian demon fire, 4 doses of Stygian tomb-dust
Advancement: By character class (probably scholar)
* feats found in Stygia – Serpent of the South.

An old embalmer from Stygia, Hetepka is a persuasive individual, having risen in rank through the acquisition of important status symbols. An agent of change, Hetepka despises the status quo. He loves to socialise and speak to people, for this is where he is strongest. He is a bit absent-minded, and often inattentive to his surroundings. Although outwardly friendly, he is motivated by prestige and status, something he works to build in Tombalku.

Living now in Tombalku for reasons undisclosed, Hetepka dresses in Aphaki fashion, but the clothing is made from linen. He keeps his head bald (indeed, he shaves off all his bodily hair) even though he has long since retired from Stygian temple life. He keeps a sorcerous garden in the central courtyard of his Tombalku home and still practices as a healer-surgeon. He controls the mummy of a Stygian queen via her funerary trappings. Her new tomb is located beneath Hetepka's home and can be accessed through a secret panel in the floor of his private sanctuary. He teaches a score of acolytes in the methods of surgery and healing he learned in the Temples of Yinepu and Set, and has created a small cult around his mummified queen.

Hetepka's full Stygian title list prior to his retirement was Hetepka, High Priest of the Temple of Yinepu at Khemi, High Priest of the Temple of Yinepu at Luxur, High Priest of Healing in the Temple of Set at Khemi, Overseer of the Priests of Healing in the Temple of Set at Amanopet, Adept Priest of Healing in the Temple of Yinepu at Karnath, Keeper of the Fourth Mystery of Yinepu, Keeper of the Third Mystery of Set, Keeper of the Second Mystery of Seshet, Keeper of the Third Mystery of Djehuty, Guardian of the Seal of Yinepu'em-h'et, Guardian of the Fourth Seal of Hetepka-tifi, Grower of the Garden of Ka'aper, Adept Priest of Agriculture in the Temple of Set at Amanopet.

 

[Ichabod]

From my viewpoint, this is all just too much mechanics to capture a bit of flavor. From a mechanical standpoint, I have these problems/suggestions:

1. None of these characters appear to have any ranks in K: Religion. That might be fine that these specific characters know jack of anything besides their own, but I don't see it being normal. After all, nonspecialists are all going to have K: Religion instead to where a ton of random doofi are going to know way more about religion as a subject than various *priests* who don't want to waste skill ranks on, like, knowing anything about religion. Especially anyone who isn't so fanatical to believe in one thing to the exclusion of all else, i.e. someone into more than one cult, should have a reasonable K-R bonus.

2. It forces characters to spend more skill ranks to achieve a concept. I don't find the current mechanics sufficient to reflect most of the character concepts I come up with. So, again, finding a way to use what's at hand rather than creating more mechanics is IMO desirable.

3. I don't really see it necessary to have varying skill bonuses for different mysteries - varying levels sure, which skill ranks can represent, but not varying rolls. Why is this important? Because I think something besides skill ranks can be used to give different levels of mysteryage.

4. And, that would be using the allegiance mechanic. The allegiance rules are useless, but the concept is somewhat interesting (much less so than reputation, which has quite a bit of problems itself). So, just say if you have one Cult-Allegiance: Set and a minimum number of K: Religion ranks you are at Set's first mystery, combine dumping more allegiance slots and ranks in K-R in to go up in mysteries in some way that suits your characters. It's also reasonable that the more you are into a cult's mysteries, the fewer outside allegiances you have, assuming of course that allegiances meant anything (something that would require rules that were worth one's time) to where people even bothered noting what allegiances they held.

My sense is that you aren't really trying to expand the mechanics in the game but better capture flavor. I think there's quite a bit of hand waving that can be done in the name of flavor just so you don't make an already overly messy rules set even worse. Another way to do mysteries is with feats. Of course, since feats can be scarce, the hand waving that kicks in is just dumping some free, role-playing feats on whichever characters you want to be mysterious.

I like the concept that getting deep into a particular group (doesn't have to be religion) has perks, so I appreciate the effort; it's also interesting to read about the higher truths of the various mystery religions; but, it's already too much hassle to keep track of "half" the mechanical crap in the game to where adding more has a real cost (beyond the problem I have with the skill system).

Even if the skill list were pared down to make it less painful to assign ranks to secondary skills, I'm still not going to be enthused by overly narrow stuff.

Also, if I were to spend time on trying to make certain skills useful, I'd start with Profession and move on to Craft (mundane stuff) and Perform (admittedly you have tried to do this already, but I still don't see the PC relevance to virtually anything besides P: Ritual).

 

[windman]

Oh c'mon. Osiris/Horus, Dionysos, Mithra, Zorastrianism and a dozen other far older religions have virgin birth, resurrection in the third day, saving souls through blood of a willing sacrifice and other similar core doctrines. Then there are little details like the three sages and birthday of the saviour as 25th of December that are present in other, older religions.

I would caution you very strongly against getting your ideas on this kind of thing solely from the internet. This is amyth which is fiercely supported on several websites, but by no scholars, and it is utterly wrong. This isn't the place to go into this, but as a few examples, none of the religions you mention above actually have any of the elements you cite. Osiris and Horus both ahve genealogies and were concieved by the union of a god and a goddess. Osiris had to be reanimated to concieve his heir, Horus, post mortem, but he then proceeded to the underworld as usual (in Egyptian tales). He was never resurected, but ruled over the dead. he wasn't a willing sacrifice, he was murdered by treachery. Dionysos doesn't even get that close, until the arrival of the Orphic cult where he does acquire some of these characteristics, but they started in the 3rd century AD. Mithra (who is a different deity from Mithras, by the way) was born from a god and a goddess, and never died. Mithras emerged fully grown from a rock, and never died. Zoroaster was born as normal, was murdered, and styaed dead. etc etc.

While I'm wary of drawing the conversation in this thread back away from the very useful discussion of religion in world of Conan, I think you feel you're a greater authority on the history of religion than you think.

The many aspects of Christianity and the myth of Christ that are taken from previous religions are well documented by respected scholars. I suggest you try reading Joseph Campbell, especially the Masks of God series. It 's all there.

 

[Voltumna]

Indeed, Knowledge Mystery and Knowledge Fencing are two great additions to the game. Religion can be such a strong driving force that it is great to have a system that introduces benefits based on initiation ranks, and it opens a lot of roleplaying possibilities as well, since being an initiate of a cult or secret society brings its responsibilities too.

As for uses, I have been toying with ideas, but haven't been able to consolidate them. Here they are any way for what they are worth, from character concepts, to specific cults, to game mechanics, all just rough sketches:

I have been thinking of creating a mystically inclined thief, who is an initiate in the Aquilonian cult of Asura. I think the powers bestowed by the sixth and seventh mysteries of the cult could be of great benefit for a thief that constantly prowls in darkened places, but also confer him a "sixth sense" to find objects that are hidden like secret doors or chambers. I think the later could be accomplished with some tweaks of the seventh mystery. This gives him Blind fighting like abilities which I always felt suit thieves very well. Also all the powers of perception that one gets for sense motive and listen checks are not to be shunned. I don't know if this character would be mainly a thief or scholar, but would have levels of both, and it most certainly have the feat Religiously driven to be able to attain the higher levels of initiation. He would serve the sect retrieving powerful arcane objects from mad scheming characters that plan to use them to conquer the world. Also, this character would be a scholar but not a sorcerer, although he would have the Dabbler: divinations feat, thus he has dreams of wisdom every now and then that help him in his hunts. He would also consume the sorcerer's root in order to be induced into sorcerer news trances. I am giving him the dabbler feat to satisfy a sense of mystical instinct, but I don't want to make him a full fledged sorcerer, thus he wouldn't take Dabbler: counterspells which would make a lot of sense, but I would give him the thief special ability of sorcerous protection. He would be zamorian, hired by the cult at some point to carry out a minor mission, somehow he pried into their mysteries, and was initiated into them.

Yag Kosha exerts its fascination as well, and I have been thinking in developing his mysteries. Since he wasn't actually a deity, I have taken the mysteries of Akivasha as a base, where the first mystery grants some insight into arcane matters, and the second reveals the true nature of Yag Kosha, and that he is not a god, but an alien man from an exotic distant planet. Then the initiate would be taught the philosophy of the green elephant men of Yag, which would be something that grants quasi-mystical abilities like the Asuran mysteries. One of the things this phylisophy would reflect is the yaggites aversion to black magic, but haven't thought of any more details. So maybe instead of a Knowledge: Mystery skill we could have Knowledge: Phylosophy: Yaggite Meditaion, just to make up something.

Lastly, this might be a little off topic, but it is somewhat related. I have also toyed with the idea that the monk class that has been largely discussed in other threads, could be fleshed out by a skills based progression of abilities like the ones granted by Knoweldge: Mystery and Knowledge: Fencing. Never went into any detail on this, but thought that the zingaran fencing style could be used by oriental sword masters. This might be un-cannon since there are no such sword masters in Howard's stories, but a mystic boxer could be developed in this fashion as well, without the need of a specially tailored class. The other thing I like about this idea is that any class could become a martial artist.

 

[VincentDarlage]

Voltumna, those are excellent ideas!

 

[Stygian Devout]

Well well, my humble post has yielded quite the bounty! I was at first hoping at most for a few tips on beefing up a sorcerer build but Vince's character stats are a pleasant surprise. Thanks for the NPC stats Vincent, those can undoubtedly be put to good use for my game's adventures in Stygia :twisted: