Kithai Sourcebook Review

[Hervé]

I got my copy this morning!
As always, I'm giving away the complete contents of the book, hoping I'm not hurting anyone at Mongoose. The book is 124 pages, B&W and sofback. Although completely non canonical, the whole stuff seems quite interesting and complete. I've yet to read the whole thing in details, but I've come to trust Laurence "Loz" Whitaker writings, who already did really a great job with the Eternal Champion series and managed to make against all odds a pretty useful Cimmeria book .

CONTENTS

CREDITS

KITHAI
Characteristics Of The Kithain
Language
Dress
Armour
Kithain Social Hierarchy
Zhou
Zhuhou
Qing
Han
Women In Kithai
Etiquette
Foreigners
Trade & Economy
Slavery
Kithain Government
The Seven Counsellors
Gongs & Hou
The Jade Council
Crime & Punishment
Kithain Religion
Kithai Attitude
Life, And Its Cheapness
Sorcery
Demons
Jade And Art
Kithan Tombs
Kithan Calendar
New Years Day
Emperors Day
Ancestor Day
All Gods Day
Spirits Day
Kithan Character Classes
Kithan Barbarians
Kithan Borderers
Kithan Nomads
Nobles
Scholars
Soldiers
Kithan Pirate
Kithan Thief
Kithan Temptress
Kithan Character Kit
Unusual Items From Kithai
Kithan Names

ANCESTORS, DEMONS & GODS
Religion Is Personal, Not Universal
Duality Of The Soul
Basic Cosmology
Heaven
The Underworld
Ancestor Generation
Demon And Spirit Worship
What Are The Kuei?
The Summoning Ritual
Kithan Pantheon
Cheng-Ho
Yu Huang
Ch’eng-Huang
Cheng Wu
Chi’-Fu-Shen
Chi’-Ku-Niang
Chi’-Ti
Chi-Wen
Chang Tzu-Ya
Yang Sung-Tzu
Chih Yü
Yogah
Yun
Kithan Priests
Sorcery Styles
Religious Accoutrements And Beliefs

BLACK WISDOM
Oriental Magic
Heaven’s Stairway
Eyes Of The Truth
Shield OF THE X Ancestors
Castle Of Bamboo
Bamboo Storm
Eyes Of The Tiger
Smokes Of Paradise
Bamboo Doom
Conquering Gaze (Summoning)
Ground Rot
Necromancy
The Circle Of Midnight
Verdant Mastery
Underworld’s Stairway
Eternal Warrior
Wounds Of Cheng Wu
Skin Of The Grave
Blessing Of Ch’eng-Huang
Resting Of Ch’eng-Huan
Call Of The Dead
Curse Of The Wood
Language Of The Judged
Ch’eng-Huang’s Blessing
Summoning
Indentify Kuei
Servitude
Heaven’s August Light
Summon Ancestor
Summon Dragon

KITHAI AT WAR
Key Battles Of Kithan History
The Military Of Kithai
High Ranking Officers
Infantry
Archers
Charioteers
Cavalry
Mercenaries
Engineers
Other Units
Uniforms And Regalia Of The Kithan Armies
Kithan Military Strategy
Kithan Military Classes
Kithan Mercenary
Kithan Pikeman
Kithan Noble Cavalry

KITHAI GAZETEER
Typical Mass Characters
Bandit Gangs
Kithai Private Army Patrol
Kithan Encounters
Wily Paikang Merchant
Erudite Scholar
Scheming Noble
Kithan Slave
Sorcerer Priest
Kithan Warlord
Imperial Minister
Great Wall Commander (Kang-Ho)
Great Wall Sorcerer (Kang-Ka)
Bandit Leader
Imperial Counsellor
Imperial Or Noble Concubine
Jade Temptress
Scholar Of Dark Wisdom
Imperial Magistrate

A KITHAI BESTIARY
White Apes
Kuei
Nian
The God Of Thunder
Lei Jen Zu
Ba She (Cultivated Snakes)
Tai Sui
Dragon (Lung)
Jiang Shi (Kithan Vampire)

ADVENTURES IN KITHAI
Ta-Heng’s Protection
The Temple Of Ohman-Tus
The Ghost City Of Chambra-Ri
In Po-Sha’s Wake
New Year’s Day
Margin Of Water
In The Company Of Sung

KITHAI INDEX

LICENSE

 

[Hervé]

Seems like Kithai doesn't raise much interest.
Anyone else got the book?

 

[jolt]

I'd like to buy it but right now I have too many other purchases waiting on the back burner.

The problem I have with any setting book is, though they're often good reads, much of the information goes unused. What critical information I need I make note of in my GM's notebook and then the book just sits on the shelf. I collect old board games and have been gaming a long time and space has definitely become a premium. Books sitting on a shelf doing nothing just aren't acceptable anymore. PDF's have been an absolute godsend for setting/fluff products. With PDF's I can keep one copy on my computer and another on my flashdrive.

I'm sure I'll buy this eventually but probably not soon. I don't worry too much about canon with Conan. Many Conan collections contain stories that weren't actually written by Howard and the number of non-Howard stories far outstrips the actual Howard material; even after taking away the Robert Jordan stuff.

To be honest, I found Howard's Kull stories to be better written (IMO) than his Conan stories anyway. Too bad that stupid Kull movie has probably killed any chance of getting Kull material in rpg form.

But getting back to Khitai, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts/comments when you've had a chance to read it more thoroughly.

jolt

 

[The King]

Seems like Kithai doesn't raise much interest.
Anyone else got the book?

I read the summary with much attention (and thanks a lot for your efforts) but I'd rather have a review of the book (the good and the bad).

I didn't buy it yet and though I didn't buy any of the "2nd Edition reprint" I intend to purchase the rest but I usually buy them in clusters.

 

[flatscan]

Got my copy yesterday. Still hate the cover. Have only skimmed through the book. Lot of stuff about a sorcerous bamboo wall and such. Didn't see any illustrations throughout the book that really grabbed my interest. Some of the flavor of the book feels off to me. But I'm a harsh critic. More when I get a chance to thoroughly read it.

 

[warzen]

I prefer to spend my money on Betrayer of Asgard.

W.

 

[FailedSpotCheck]

Thanks for the detailed info!! 8)

For those in the know: Does the material of the book seem to be derived from RL East Asian culture/history/archaeology, or purely made-up fanciful stuff? I've been studying ancient China for the past 8-9 years and wonder if this supplement is based more on China or on Japan.

I recognise the words Zhou, Qing and Han, but not Zhuhou. Gong was Duke and Hou Marquis. Some of the spellings look more Wade-Giles than pinyin (?). I wonder what sources (bibliography) the author used...?

 

[Loz]

Thanks for the detailed info!! 8)

For those in the know: Does the material of the book seem to be derived from RL East Asian culture/history/archaeology, or purely made-up fanciful stuff? I've been studying ancient China for the past 8-9 years and wonder if this supplement is based more on China or on Japan.

I recognise the words Zhou, Qing and Han, but not Zhuhou. Gong was Duke and Hou Marquis. Some of the spellings look more Wade-Giles than pinyin (?). I wonder what sources (bibliography) the author used...?

The book is based on a variety of sources: all the (scant) Khitai references REH made in the Conan stories; Vincent Darlage's existing notes regarding Khitai culture (to maintain and extend continuity with 'Return to the Road of Kings') and Chinese (not Japanese) myth - using a variety of sources, but principally the Encyclopedia of Myth and Legend.

'Khitai' isn't meant to be a mythic rendering of ancient China; its meant to be a Conan sourcebook. As canon for Khitai is thin on the ground, it therefore relies on personal creativity and extrapolation, whilst attempting to be as faithful as possible to REH's writing.

 

[LucaCherstich]

Loz,
which map did you use writing the sourcebook?
In the description of "Chosain" you say that the region is near Kusan.
However, the map in the sourcebook puts Kusan on the other side of Khitai!
Your map looks (Still!!!) based on the worng map from the Conan Rulebook.
Did you choose that map or somebody did for you?
Neither the revised maps in Return to the Road of the Kings have sense (Kusan still on the other side).
Your description of Chusan has more sense with Vincent's maps from hyboria.xoth.net.
However, vincent's maps do not seem to show all those Khitain deserts you mention!
What about the position (and dimensions) of the Swamps of the Dead and Hyrkania related to Khitai?
Do you prefer Vincent's solutions or not?

 

[VincentDarlage]

However, vincent's maps do not seem to show all those Khitain deserts you mention!

I haven't seen the book, but were I to guess, I would guess the "Khitan deserts" are actually Hyrkanian deserts, and shown on my Hyrkania maps.

 

[LucaCherstich]

Off course yor maps pre-date the invention of such deserts by Loz!
Loz says that he used some of your notes, so I was wondering how much your version of Khitai influenced him.
The Khitai you show on your maps (influenced by Rippke, am I wrong?) is definitively different from the one in the map inside the Khitai sourcebook.
In your maps all the cities are in different positions!!!
More important are a few topographical differences.
If one use your map the "deserts" mentioned by Loz CANNOT be in Khitai! (but Hyrkania...if "Hyrkania" is only what is on the other side of the mountains).
In the Khitai's book the western mountains ("mountains of night") run north-south on the west side of Khitai and separate Khitai from Hyrkania and Kusan (which are both WEST of Khitai).
In your maps the mountains run in the north and Kusan is EAST of Khitai!!!! (opposite direction than in Loz' book).
Furthermore in your map the peninsula with the Swamps of the Dead is such a significant feature!
Using your map Ruo-Gen is the best port connecting trade from Khitai to the west...but not in the map in Khitai's book!
In your maps Angkor is not a maritime port...but it is a port in the maps in "Khitai"!!
Given all these differences (and many more) I was wondering which map Loz used and, if he prefers your map, why did that map appear in his book.

 

[VincentDarlage]

Keep in mind the authors have no control over which maps are chosen for use. I wrote Return to the Road of Kings with my maps in mind, which I also submitted to Mongoose, but they declined to use (but to be fair, they may not have had a choice; the license holders may not have let them change the map as much as I wanted).

Hyrkania stretches from the western coast of the Vilayet to the eastern coast of the continent.

Yes, my maps are totally influenced by Rippke. I even sent them to him for his advice, so he had a fair amount of input. I would argue that Rippke's maps are much better researched as far as REH goes, but that Mongoose's maps fit in better with the pastiches (particularly with Bjorn Nyberg's geography from The Return of Conan (aka Conan the Avenger).

Which deserts are discussed in the book?

 

[Loz]

The map was definitely problematic.

Vincent's map, which he sent me, has little in common with the maps printed in the existing Mongoose sourcebooks and whilst I cannot quibble at all with their accuracy, attempts at reconciling the differences was especially tough to do. In the end, I had to go by the maps already published for Conan in the various Mongoose books, but tried to keep elements of Vincent's map where I could. Any inconsistencies or errors are purely mine, but, as I say, it was a difficult task without completely rewriting the geography of the entire area and forcing a completely new map onto those that form the line's foundation.

 

[The King]

Anyway I think Mongoose always had some issue with maps. May I suggest they work the way TSR did in its time with AD&D, 2nd edition?

I strongly believe their cartographic service was (and is still) without equal.

 

[Seeker]

I found the Khitai book to be very useful.

For a while now, I've been putting together an adventure called "Outlaws of Khitai" where characters from western Hyboria are sent to escort an emissary from Turan to the Jade Court of the God Emperor.

When things turn bad, they must join with outlaws from the Kambujan Marches and fight the tyranny of the mad ruler.

The sections on history, people and geography were good. Stats on bandits and monsters were excellent. (Glad to see someone followed my advice about the Water Margin and the Jiang Shi)

I'd recommended it for anyone with sceanios in Khitai.

 

[kintire]

It is an interesting book. It seems to based on very early Chinese history militarily (heavy reliance on chariots to support very low grade infantry) with considerably later civil society. It works surprisingly well as an isolated nation which has had little need to develop its military, and is thus ripe for conquest by even a modest sized western army. If you can handle the sorcery, of course...

The major cities are well described, and have some solid plot hooks. Generally, a nice piece of work.

 

[Arcadayn]

Anyway I think Mongoose always had some issue with maps. May I suggest they work the way TSR did in its time with AD&D, 2nd edition?

I strongly believe their cartographic service was (and is still) without equal.

Personally, I think Harn and the old MERP maps are the best. The cool thing about the MERP maps is that Pete Fenlon drew all of them by hand.

 

[Loz]

For a while now, I've been putting together an adventure called "Outlaws of Khitai" where characters from western Hyboria are sent to escort an emissary from Turan to the Jade Court of the God Emperor.

Given all the politicking that goes on during the month of the Jade Court, you could have huge amounts of fun by bringing a foreign emissary into the mix, especially with ambitious Gongs desperate to consolidate power through outside influences like Turan.

 

[The King]

Personally, I think Harn and the old MERP maps are the best. The cool thing about the MERP maps is that Pete Fenlon drew all of them by hand.

They were works of art of course, but I never saw any correlation between them and the scenarios of these systems. That's why I talked about TSR as a model.
I mean thus not only the regional and kingdoms maps but also the maps which were specific to their adventures and/or campaigns. Indeed they reached their peaks when they began to make their maps in 3-D (view from the side and above).

 

[danbuter]

I would say, that if you are going to do such a long post on a book, you should check your spelling before submitting.