AndrewW
Emperor Mongoose
-Daniel- said:
If it's an escort you be wanting, details of a WWII era Destroyer Escort (including some upgrades:
http://warfarehistorynetwork.com/daily/wwii/holding-the-line-on-the-high-seas/
Kargash Light Cruiser
- Thread starter mancerbear
- Start date
If it's an escort you be wanting, details of a WWII era Destroyer Escort (including some upgrades:
http://warfarehistorynetwork.com/daily/wwii/holding-the-line-on-the-high-seas/
AnotherDilbert
Emperor Mongoose
Here's some MgT2 stats:
TL 15, 2000 dT, Armour 15, J-2, M-9, GCr 2.3
Stealth Jump, Basic Stealth, EM Masking, Radiation Shielding
Crew: 86 (incl. 20 marines), some extra staterooms, 10 low berths, 20 dT common areas, 100 escape pods.
Cargo: 86 dT for long range operations.
Boat bay: 100 dT, can squeeze in 3 ship's boats or 2 pinnaces.
2 medium missile bays, 48 missiles/round
12 pulse laser turrets (long range)
6 point defence batteries, type III
6 nuclear dampers
The weapons can be rearranged to taste.
TL 15, 2000 dT, Armour 15, J-2, M-9, GCr 2.3
Stealth Jump, Basic Stealth, EM Masking, Radiation Shielding
Crew: 86 (incl. 20 marines), some extra staterooms, 10 low berths, 20 dT common areas, 100 escape pods.
Cargo: 86 dT for long range operations.
Boat bay: 100 dT, can squeeze in 3 ship's boats or 2 pinnaces.
2 medium missile bays, 48 missiles/round
12 pulse laser turrets (long range)
6 point defence batteries, type III
6 nuclear dampers
The weapons can be rearranged to taste.
Code:
TL 15 Hull 880 2 287,0 Sensor DM +6
Desired ∆TL Rat # dTon Cost Power HardP Crew
Hull 2000 400 20
Config Close Structure 4 4 110
Hull strength Standard 2 2
Armour Bonded Superdense 20 15 240 132
Rad Shielding 1 1 50
EM Shielding 1 1 40 80
Stealth Stealth 1 1 200
Repair Drones 1 1 20 4
JumpD Very Advanced 2 2 2 1 105 197 400 3 Stealth
ManœuvreD Very Advanced 9 2 9 1 144 360 1800 4
PowerP TL12 High Technology 3 1 92 276 2628 3
Emergency Power 1 1 9 28
Drop Tank Collar 400 dT 1 1 1 2 1
Drop Tanks
Fuel, Jump 2 2 1 400
Fuel, Power 4 4 1 9
Fuel Purification 24 h 24 h 1 20 1
Bridge 1 1 60 10
Holographic 1 1 3
Comp CORE/100 20 100 1 130
Backup Comp m/25 5 25 1 15 fib
Sensors Advanced 9 4 1 5 5 6
Array Rapid Extension 9 2 1 10 21
Extension Net 9 1 1 20 20
Signal Processing Enhanced 9 2 1 2 8 2
Shallow Pen Suite 9 1 10 5 1
Countermeasures Military 9 2 1 15 28 2
Staterooms 100% 50 50 200 25
Common Areas 10% 10% 1 20 2
Escape Capsule 1 100 50 2
Briefing Room 1 1 4 1
Library 1 1 4 4
Medical Bay 10% of crew 1 2 8 4
Workshop 1 1 6 1
Armoury 1 8 8 2
Brig 1 1 4 0
Low Berths 10 10 5 1 1
Cargo 86
Medium Bay
Missile High Technology 2 3 TL10 2 140 75 20 2 4 Size
Turret
Pulse Laser Very Advanced 12 2 TL11 12 12 57 156 12 12 Dam: 2D+4
Point Defence Type III, Adv 6 1 6 108 132 180 6 Size
Screen
Damper,High Technology 6 3 6 42 90 60 6 Size
Craft 30 dT 3 3 100 25 6
Software 184
Intellect/1 10 1
Jump Control/6 30 1
Evade/3 25 3
Fire Control/5 25 10
Advanced Fire Control/3 30 18
Launch Solution/3 15 16
Point Defence/2 15 12
Electronic Warfare/3 20 24
Broad Spectrum EW/1 12 14
Screen Optimiser/1 10 5
Battle System/3 15 36
Virtual Crew/2 15 10
Virtual Gunner/2 15 10
Anti-Hijack/3 12 14
Auto-Repair/2 20 10
Crew 86
Command 8
Bridge 10
Pilot 3
Astrogator 1
Sensor & EW 6
Engineer 14
Engineer 10
Maintenance 4
Service 3
Admin 2
Medic 0,666916667
Steward 0,03
Gunner 25
Flight 6
Troops 20Tenacious-Techhunter
Mongoose
AndrewW said:
Keelhaul all the damn canonists! Funny how you can still keelhaul in space, albeit with different results. That sort of punishment is more likely for Pirates and Corsairs than governmental navies, though.
Reynard
Emperor Mongoose
So am I to understand there are no warships in Imperial Space under TL 15 maybe 14? All Sector and maybe even planetary navies rely in a few, if that many, starports and shipyards around TL 15 worlds to pump out and maintain every warship and support vessel? That make the HG2e introduction a bit false then if the Imperium actually doesn't need to worry about having enough IN vessels to cover every parsec of the entire realm and always have them on any warfront or area of contention and the Imperium as many of those.
FallingPhoenix
Mongoose
Reynard said:
That's kind of what I'm thinking. The Imperial Navy may be TL 15, but the Navy can't be everywhere and neither are TL 15 systems. Seems to me there's lots of room for older ships still being used in various different capacities, even on the front line of a war if the main fleet got caught somewhere else, or there was a surprise attack on a Subsector Fleet that started the war...
-Daniel-
Emperor Mongoose
The key, for me, is not if there are ships below TL15 still being used. I would imagine there would be. The important issue is "how old of a ship is still worth using". So some older ships might be in use for many support roles. A refurbished ship used as a mobile field hospital ship for example. Makes sense to me. But after a point, the wear and tare of age combined with the cost of replacement vs continued care would make a ship worthless to a particular navy. Then I could see them being handed down at first to a smaller system navy or sold to corporations for conversion use. BUt at some point they would be worthless for anything but scrap.FallingPhoenix said:
mancerbear
Mongoose
I had no dea this little post would garner so much interest.
I'm happy to have the Kargash categorised as a missile escort. Real navies recatagorise their ships, making heavy cruisers light cruisers and so on. I imagine that the plans are updraded to current standard, making it TL 14 or 15.
I see the Imperial Navy fielding ships ranging from TL 13 to 15. Not every vessel in the Navy will be cutting edge tech. Older ships would still be used, even if just in a reserve status.
As the Fifth Frontier War rages on, more older ships will be pressed into service as newer ships are damaged, destroyed, and being repaired. It becomes a race of attrition, with shipyards racing to launch more vessels for the war effort, economic concerns regarding funding the effort, war bonds, all that sort of thing.
At last, that's what I believe.
I'm happy to have the Kargash categorised as a missile escort. Real navies recatagorise their ships, making heavy cruisers light cruisers and so on. I imagine that the plans are updraded to current standard, making it TL 14 or 15.
I see the Imperial Navy fielding ships ranging from TL 13 to 15. Not every vessel in the Navy will be cutting edge tech. Older ships would still be used, even if just in a reserve status.
As the Fifth Frontier War rages on, more older ships will be pressed into service as newer ships are damaged, destroyed, and being repaired. It becomes a race of attrition, with shipyards racing to launch more vessels for the war effort, economic concerns regarding funding the effort, war bonds, all that sort of thing.
At last, that's what I believe.
Reynard
Emperor Mongoose
I'm seeing one big error. The Traveller Universe features many worlds with a diversity of tech levels. A low tech level doesn't mean vehicles and equipment are literally old. You could have TL 15 battlecruisers from several hundred years ago (whenever the Imperium first achieved that level) while TL 9 starships can be first firing their engine away from the shipyard yesterday. We see example of ships in the game with varying tech levels and ages with the Older Ship rules in the core book. More importantly might be the Primitive and Advanced Spacecraft rules section but it still doesn't mean they are inherently useless against a higher tech ship. That's why forces use everything available and save the much rarer upper tech fleets for the most important battles.
I need to survey every race with starships to see how many have an abundance of TL 14-15 worlds compared to the Imperium's average 12-13. If the Aslans and Zhodani actually are mostly or all upper TL then the Imperium already lost.
I need to survey every race with starships to see how many have an abundance of TL 14-15 worlds compared to the Imperium's average 12-13. If the Aslans and Zhodani actually are mostly or all upper TL then the Imperium already lost.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
The high tech hulls are too cheap in the design sequence; you have to have a military and/or economic reason to justify lower tech ships.
Missile ships should fare slightly better against higher tech opponants as the ship can still launch TL15 missiles and the guided trait uses the higher TL of ship and launcher (ironically this means that for the Imperial navy it is probably more economical by a long shot to equip their high tech ships with low tech missiles, especially as they'll be ordering in bulk... ),
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
The IN builds its warships at TL15 period.
IN bases are TL15 regardless of the world TL they are located at.
Its auxiliaries could be built at any TL that suits the local politicians, but TL15 is cheapest.
Subsector navy vessels may be built at any yard in a subsector or can be obsolete IN vessels handed down.
Planetary navies can build ships at any ship yard in the subsector, they may or may not be able to do a deal to get some truly obsolete ex-IN rustbuckets.
Civilian and paramilitry shipping is where the TL range of the Imperium will express itself.
How many WW! era subs does the USA have on the slipyards to take on the Chinese? How many through deck cruisers has the US Navy ordered to carry its Sopwith Camels into action?
IN bases are TL15 regardless of the world TL they are located at.
Its auxiliaries could be built at any TL that suits the local politicians, but TL15 is cheapest.
Subsector navy vessels may be built at any yard in a subsector or can be obsolete IN vessels handed down.
Planetary navies can build ships at any ship yard in the subsector, they may or may not be able to do a deal to get some truly obsolete ex-IN rustbuckets.
Civilian and paramilitry shipping is where the TL range of the Imperium will express itself.
How many WW! era subs does the USA have on the slipyards to take on the Chinese? How many through deck cruisers has the US Navy ordered to carry its Sopwith Camels into action?
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Well, it should be lower tech level equipment built in higher tech level manufactories are cheaper.
Suspect that when the High Guard design comes out, it will probably need an update in light of this.
You can have a high tech level missile on a low level platform, but the fire control could be upgraded.
Suspect that when the High Guard design comes out, it will probably need an update in light of this.
You can have a high tech level missile on a low level platform, but the fire control could be upgraded.
PsiTraveller
Cosmic Mongoose
The issue and game rule mechanic that pops up is how do you determine Tech level of a ship?
What tech level is a hull? higher tech hulls can stop more damage, so can you get 10 ton fighters with TL 15 bonded Superdense that deduct 15 points of damage from a hit and become protected against small weapons? So a TL 15 ship can have quite a bit of protection against turret weapons, as long as the full tonnage of armour is taken. So the high TL ship has to use 12 percent of tonnage to get the 15 points of protection. This can impact carrying capacity in a J4 ship. 10 percent is engine, 40 percent is fuel, 12 percent armour leaves less tonnage for larger weapons like bays.
Is it Computer Level? A TL 15 Computer with 35 rating can run fewer programs than a TL 9 Core 40 computer.
A lower Tech computer can launch TL 15 missiles and in missile combat the TL of the computer or missile is used, whichever is better. Advanced missiles are TL 14, the regular combat missiles are TL 7 or 8.
Which stat does a ship use when attacking? a TL 9 Core computer? the TL 12 or TL 15 Sensors? The Fire control software that maxes out at TL 13?
Jump 2 software is Tech 11, Jump 4 is Tech 13. Ships can jump farther at higher tech levels. This does not help in a fight between a J4 ship fighting an SDB, Jump engines may not be used in the fight, although they can factor into emergency retreats, I grant you that.
A TL 11 ship has TL 10 Power Plant which produces a third less power than a TL 12 plant. This might result in a
What exactly gives the TL advantage in a fight? For attach and Defense roll modifiers, where do you look? The other aspects may limit how many weapons you can fit into a hull because tonnage has been used up, but once the weapons go hot how much is TL affecting things?
What tech level is a hull? higher tech hulls can stop more damage, so can you get 10 ton fighters with TL 15 bonded Superdense that deduct 15 points of damage from a hit and become protected against small weapons? So a TL 15 ship can have quite a bit of protection against turret weapons, as long as the full tonnage of armour is taken. So the high TL ship has to use 12 percent of tonnage to get the 15 points of protection. This can impact carrying capacity in a J4 ship. 10 percent is engine, 40 percent is fuel, 12 percent armour leaves less tonnage for larger weapons like bays.
Is it Computer Level? A TL 15 Computer with 35 rating can run fewer programs than a TL 9 Core 40 computer.
A lower Tech computer can launch TL 15 missiles and in missile combat the TL of the computer or missile is used, whichever is better. Advanced missiles are TL 14, the regular combat missiles are TL 7 or 8.
Which stat does a ship use when attacking? a TL 9 Core computer? the TL 12 or TL 15 Sensors? The Fire control software that maxes out at TL 13?
Jump 2 software is Tech 11, Jump 4 is Tech 13. Ships can jump farther at higher tech levels. This does not help in a fight between a J4 ship fighting an SDB, Jump engines may not be used in the fight, although they can factor into emergency retreats, I grant you that.
A TL 11 ship has TL 10 Power Plant which produces a third less power than a TL 12 plant. This might result in a
What exactly gives the TL advantage in a fight? For attach and Defense roll modifiers, where do you look? The other aspects may limit how many weapons you can fit into a hull because tonnage has been used up, but once the weapons go hot how much is TL affecting things?
Reynard
Emperor Mongoose
"How many WW! era subs does the USA have on the slipyards to take on the Chinese? How many through deck cruisers has the US Navy ordered to carry its Sopwith Camels into action?"
Then again 21st century Earth isn't a massive hodgepodge of tech levels centering more on the 18th century and not easily reachable by the higher tech industrial nations who produce fewer ships than the rest of the world but rely on those other nations' production for filling out their navies.
"To monitor the space lanes, the Imperium maintains a Navy. Because these forces can never be everywhere at once, local provinces (subsectors) also maintain navies, as do individual worlds. This three tiered structure of Imperial, subsector, and planetary navies produces a flexible system for patrolling space, while putting the limited resources of the Imperium to best use."
"The sheer size of the Imperium precludes the navy from concentrating its forces in one place – if war broke out on one border of the Imperium, it would be months before news reached the capital, and long months more before the navy could respond. Instead, there are one or more Imperial fleets for each sector, named for that sector."
From my reading, the Imperium isn't pumping out TL 15 ships from every class A shipyard in greater numbers than local forces and thus relies on huge numbers of 'lesser ships' to take arms in conjunction with each Imperial sector fleet. Remember that only class A starports can build starships. If all class A ports are, as some suggest, Imperial TL 15 then why would ANY ship anywhere be build lower than that? I believe this should also be true for any race.
Then again 21st century Earth isn't a massive hodgepodge of tech levels centering more on the 18th century and not easily reachable by the higher tech industrial nations who produce fewer ships than the rest of the world but rely on those other nations' production for filling out their navies.
"To monitor the space lanes, the Imperium maintains a Navy. Because these forces can never be everywhere at once, local provinces (subsectors) also maintain navies, as do individual worlds. This three tiered structure of Imperial, subsector, and planetary navies produces a flexible system for patrolling space, while putting the limited resources of the Imperium to best use."
"The sheer size of the Imperium precludes the navy from concentrating its forces in one place – if war broke out on one border of the Imperium, it would be months before news reached the capital, and long months more before the navy could respond. Instead, there are one or more Imperial fleets for each sector, named for that sector."
From my reading, the Imperium isn't pumping out TL 15 ships from every class A shipyard in greater numbers than local forces and thus relies on huge numbers of 'lesser ships' to take arms in conjunction with each Imperial sector fleet. Remember that only class A starports can build starships. If all class A ports are, as some suggest, Imperial TL 15 then why would ANY ship anywhere be build lower than that? I believe this should also be true for any race.
AnotherDilbert
Emperor Mongoose
Higher tech has better software, and the computers to run it. Advanced Fire Control, Launch Control, Evasion for start.PsiTraveller said:
Higher tech probably has better sensor DM, making sensor locks much more likely.
Higher tech probably has more armour, so it takes less damage.
Higher tech can have more weapon tech upgrades, doing more damage at longer range.
Higher tech has access to better weapons.
Higher tech has better screens.
Higher tech has better point defence.
Higher tech can have better performance drives, so can outmanoeuvre slower ships.
Higher tech has an advantage in stealth.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
I think you will find that the TL of countries here on Earth vary from TL3 to almost TL8. The TL7 and 8 stuff can only be manufactured by a few countries, but can be bought in - in much the same way the TL15 worlds trade their goods with the TL12-13 worlds. Remember the TL12-13 worlds know all about TL15, they just lack the infrastructure to manufacture at that TL. In much the same way that the majority of countries on Earth today are incapable of manufacturing microchips.Reynard said:
Great way to selectively quote, let me add the bit you have missed out:
"Defence of the frontier is mostly provided by local indigenous forces, stiffened by scattered lmperial naval bases manned by small but extremely sophisticated forces."
Now let's consider S:9 - every current era warship is TL 15, one is even considered obsolete and is being replaced by a better TL15 design.
The rules in FFW are pretty clear that every regular IN squadron is TL15.
Any world can build ships for its planetary navy regardless of local starport class.
The Imperial fleet is indeed built at TL15 shipyards, there are massive numbers of them in the Imperial core sectors.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Most, if not all, Solomani vessels are designed to permit upgrades; the Imperium Navy does this as well, though perhaps not on a wide scale.
