Kargash Light Cruiser

[mancerbear]

With the Fifth Frontier War about to begin in my campaign (less than 18 months away) I'm looking forward to statting up the Kargash-Class light cruiser (if it's not already done in High Guard). I'm not sure what I like about this little pocket bulldog, but I really like it. I'm looking forward to narrating an exciting battle between a squadron of Kargash (plu: Kargashii?) cruisers and Zhod forces, with the PCs unwittingly caught in between

 

[AndrewW]

With the Fifth Frontier War about to begin in my campaign (less than 18 months away) I'm looking forward to statting up the Kargash-Class light cruiser (if it's not already done in High Guard).

That one isn't making it into the new High Guard. The Gionetti light cruiser though should be in there.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Why would a TL11 2000t 1st Imperium light cruiser be fighting in the FFW?

 

[mancerbear]

Why would a TL11 2000t 1st Imperium light cruiser be fighting in the FFW?

Why not? Starship designs don't have a use by date.

The Free Trader was used during the First Imperium and is still around in the Third.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Umm, because the Zhodani are TL14 and this "cruiser" is only TL11.
The 3I navy has other standard designs in the escort classs range.

It is a nice looking ship mind you, and if you want to have the 3I IYTU upgrade 4000year old designs rather than build new go for it

 

[mancerbear]

Again, I say why not? Upgrading the design to TL 14/15 isn't a bad idea. Like I said, the free trader and many other designs are thousands of years old and still used. Not sure why the poo-pooing here, but anyway. Can't please all of the people all of the time.

 

[Condottiere]

Might be viable, depending on upgrades.

Though High Guard rules would need to reflect this.

 

[Reynard]

Seriously though, ships of lower technology have absolutely no chance against higher tech vessels? I was under the impression the Imperium was closer to the 12-13 average which means more shipyards and stations to build and service lower tech ships which mean much more of them than the TL 14-15 grand lord and ladies. High tech ships need ports that can handle their high tech, high maintenance needs. I would expect large fleets of Subsector and even planetary navies filling the holes for the rarer Imperial fleets. I get that feeling reading High Guard 2e Introduction. The Imperial fleets have the really big guns but the sum of the fleet's forces rely on the addition of many subsector fleets in wartime. That most likely means many lower tech ships, lots of lower tech ships.

The Kargash should be valid.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I would love to know when the fanon trope 'the Imperium is mostly TL12-13 therefore the IN is mostly TL12-13' bull came from.

The 3I has been TL15 since the Solomani Rim War, it has been TL15 for so long that it is phasing out old TL15 designs as obsolete in order to build new TL15 designs.

The Imperium relies on its TL advantage to win against the Solomani and the Zho.

While the IN may well build lower TL support vessels, every single one of their warships will be TL15.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

For a given tonnage or cost a TL 15 warship will be much more capable than a TL 11 warship.

When TL 15 is available, building TL 11 warships is a waste of money, just like it would be a waste of money to build WWII warships or 60s fighters today. Building TL 14 or perhaps even TL 13 ships because it is locally available and you wish to encourage local industry can be discussed, but TL 11 is too low.

Most Imperial subsectors have a TL 15 world nearby that can build and service TL 15 ships.


If you like the hull shape, just use the pictures with updated stats. Call it a modern variation of an old idea, the Kargash II class.


(By HG standards a 2000 dT ship is not a cruiser, hardly even a destroyer. I would call it a frigate.)

 

[mancerbear]

If you like the hull shape, just use the pictures with updated stats. Call it a modern variation of an old idea, the Kargash II class.

(By HG standards a 2000 dT ship is not a cruiser, hardly even a destroyer. I would call it a frigate.)

I've already said I'd be upgrading it.

Ship classifications don't rely on tonnages, but usage. A scout cruiser is 1000 dton. A patrol cruiser is 400 dton. Both a cruisers. Both are smaller than the Kargash.

 

[GarethL]

Ship classifications don't rely on tonnages, but usage. A scout cruiser is 1000 dton. A patrol cruiser is 400 dton. Both a cruisers. Both are smaller than the Kargash.

To be fair, that does depend upon the tradition of the navy in question (e.g.: in the real world the US navy rates warships by tonnage, whilst the UK Navy rates them by use),

Nevertheless - it looks cool to me - nice work. If nothing else, the age of the design might be enough to make it a "stock" design easily available and bug free - something shipyards might be able to churn out without thinking about it - that might be enough to make it an option for local navies trying to do things on the cheap where more advanced designs may be problematic.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I've already said I'd be upgrading it.

Sorry if overreacted. I saw the argument that TL 11 warships were viable at TL 15 and disagreed, strongly.

Ship classifications don't rely on tonnages, but usage. A scout cruiser is 1000 dton. A patrol cruiser is 400 dton. Both a cruisers. Both are smaller than the Kargash.

I would disagree, but you are of course per definition correct IYTU.

Scouts, and other hippies, cannot be relied upon to correctly classify a warship. The classic Type T is known as a Patrol Corvette.

Cruisers are typically jump capable ships with spinal mounts, but perhaps not the survivability of a battleship, generally in the 20000 - 100000 kT range. I call upon CT:Fighting Ships and the example ships in MgT:High Guard and MgT2:High Guard for support.

Cruiser: The mainstay of a fleet, the cruiser is a large capital ship ...

 

[Tenacious-Techhunter]

Ha ha... calling upon a science fiction author for support of a ship type... that’s rich...

http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/spacewarship.php#id--Ship_Types

 

[Sigtrygg]

The Kargash Light Cruiser is taken from the GT:ISW era. In that timeframe a 2000t ship was cruiser sized, the top of the line battleship that the Terrans eventually produced that outclassed anything the Vilani had was only 30kt.

Traveller itself has had an identity crisis of sorts with ship classification due to the switch from the small ship paradigm of original CT to the large ship paradigm of HG1/2.

Let's face it ship designations have changed over time - during the age of sail there were frigates and line of battle ships, cruiser was a mission type not a class of ship. The modern Arleigh Burke destroyer is light cruiser sized going by WW2 ratings, while the Zumwalt class destroyer is firmly on the cruiser displacement.

Some naval architect may have resurrected the Kargash hull form for a 3I escort class design.

 

[phavoc]

I could see your ship being an original TL12 design and the one in FFW is a Mod17 version of the tried and true design. Planetary navies may operate the lower TL versions of the design.

 

[Sigtrygg]

The design was Vilani - the Terrans built better ships.

Why would this design be maintained right through the Long Night by the Syleans?

Why would the Syleans, who establish an Imperium claiming decent from the Solomani, use Vilani ship designs?

I can believe that when the 3I made contact with Vland the Vilani were still using the design

It is a nice looking iconic ship.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Thinking about it - if the 3I IN put out a requirement for a brand new escort in the 2000t range a Vilani megacorp could well tender a TL15 version.

The GT:ISW version does have some elements that MgT would struggle with - in ISW hardpoints and bays are handled differently.
GT:ISW stats
jump 2, maneuver 6, 2xlight missile arrays (2x50t missile bays), 2x heavy turret with plasma guns, hanger for 3x ship's boats

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Reusing a few thousand years old ship is not likely...

How likely is that a modern ship is based on the hull of Pansarskeppet Thor?

If you like the ship, just use it and ignore the Vilani past.

 

[-Daniel-]

This is an interesting conversation. To see the two parts to an RPG crash like this, the fluff and the physical product and how the two sometimes fail each other. You receive artwork of a ship you love. It has some game stats and in some cases even a set of deck plans. But the fluff given with this great ship means it is from centuries ago. You really want to use it, but the fluff says that does not make sense.

This is where I just laugh and toss the fluff right out the window. Fluff is what ever I say it is. This picture is now of the new TL15 Knudsen class Missile Escort. And based on my new fluff, they are often used as fleet escorts, expeditionary force support, and political transport support. Same art, same cool look, now up to date. And I just reject anyone at my table who can't let go of the old fluff enough to relax and have fun. :mrgreen: