Jumping into empty hexes: some thoughts.

[captainjack23]

This has been a very cool discussion and one of the few I've seen here that's actually be worth following...


Sheesh, refighting the "canon" battle again is just universally stupid...

Well, that is a breath of fresh air, really.

It also reminds me that another reason I posted this wasn't to discuss how to move an asteroid (cool though that is) but to suggest that one way to solve the issue without removing mass jumps is simply to make empty jumps a slightly more complicated version of the current jump level: I think I posted it before, but as part of a massive babblespew about how jumpspace works - so, no wonder it got overlooked -and forgotten by me.

Here it is, a potential Grand Unification Theory.
* = canon support or GTIW support.

Empty jumps require significantly harder calculations than star to star*. At the early levels (or not) it is effectively its own technology, specific to that Jump level.

Also, what works at one jump level doesn't apply to the next*: it has to be learned all over. *. This applies to empty jump calculations: before this is solved, Empty hex jumps are impossible; afterwards they are possible * but risky and/or difficult, BUT only possible at that jump level.


At jump 1 (TL9) J1 developed * but only star to star jumps are possible. Vilaii expand down main*, terrans may or may not use insystem jumping*.

At TL10, the overall limit is still J1*, but now empty jumps become possible, if difficult and or dangerous.
Vilanii pass the empty hexes to scout and establish new risk free j1 lines* and find various other races.*. Civilian shipping may only seldom cross these points.
Terrans jump to barnard*, via an empty jump but need a logistic point. GTIW sets the engines as requiring twice normal consumption* -carrying the fuel for two J1 jumps is a 40% penalty, and likely a problem, especially if one assumes a round trip load, so it's probably undoable at due to fuel constraints. But with a refuel at the empty Jump hex, which can easily be found once mapped, it works. Vilanii may also use logistic bases to cross similar situations. Terrans immediately adopt more efficient vilani jump designs* fuel problem diminished.

TL11: The initial version of J2 is introduced* -for Star to Star travel only. Ships can still jump to an empty hex (using J1) , but they can't jump out at jump 2 -not possible yet. And if one assumes (as seems okay with most posters) that the empty jumps are more dangerous, making repeated empty hex jumps can become close to suicide. Most of the J1 filling stations fall into disuse: Civilian ships either jump past, or are still unwilling to take the risks (remember, a -2 to he MGT jump roll makes liely a1/36 chance of a loss....that isn't good business even if one isn't averse to the risk)

Terra MAY have had a fleet of last ditch raiders ready to make repeated J1 jumps across the gap, perhaps if earth fell, but it was known that it would be a one way mission with massive losses even before arrival due to cumulative J1 empty jumps. Like the last ditch one way nuke bombers of the early cold war, it was a possiblility , but a desperation or revenge only option.



Tl12: jump three is invented*, and also J2 empty hex jumps (EHJ). In fact,one can argue that from there on out the math breakthru for EHJ occurs close enough to the new jump thereafter that it is at the same TL - heck, that fact alone may be why there is a two TL introduction of jump 1.

As there are no artificial jump points or masses to go way, its a lot easier to see why the logistic points aren't on maps -they are in fact like the filling stations on the old Highway. It allows the vilanii to do what they did,and makes the blind jump gambit far more unlikely -due to desperation not reaching Kamikazi levels.

Finally, logistic and/or calibration points can always be made - and may be a good idea with old vilani (or original terran) designs as but they don't make jump possible, except as regards to having fuel or not. *

Hows that ? No forgotten maps, no overly woodenheaded Terrans or Vilanii (for that at least); no abandoned asteroid Jump bases or forgotten stars. Plus, one can easily still have the old abandoned fuel and logistic points out there as plot hooks.

 

[AKAramis]

In Re Imperium: jumps, due to the way Imperium plays, are UNLIMITED along jump lines in those 6 month turns,, and a speed onf 1/2pc per 6 months is allowed off-line. (FOr those not familiar, that's 1.63 LY/6 months, or 3.26C...)

So, either C is not a physical speed limit in the TU, or Imperium has off-route jumps, or Imperium isn't the OTU. Given that the OTU is about ca 1980, and Imperium is 1977 by GDW...

Now, I do enjoy playing Imperium, but it raises as many issues as EDG claims it solves. The 1Pc/year off-route movement for one. The ability to cross 12 jumps in 6 months isn't a HUGE issue...


The OTU is an evolution of the Imperium/Dark Nebula settings... but the differences (like the speed limit of 3.26C without jumping) make it scream "Not the OTU". Especially since it doesn't match the details of the universe. Examine the maps in imperium and either Supp10, AM6, or Atlas of the Imperium. NOT the same. And further, many of these are J2 links (2pc). Plus Tankers can refuel from stars in Imperium.

GTIW is the Imperium/Dark Nebula universe done with GURPS Rules: which doesn't make them the OTU. The OTU has a parallel, very similar set of wars, but since the astrography is more difference than 3000 years of travel can account for (Well, Barnards would be a LY closer by then)... the ISW of Imperium are not the Nth Interstellar wars of the OTU, even tho' they are curiously close.

 

[Supergamera]

Another option: DS Jumps are limited to some level below J-1, say 0.25-0.5pc or so. This allows for "gap" crossings, but they are time consuming and typically require refueling.

It also matches with the Solomani book, which refers to a series of fueling points on the way to Barnard.

 

[zozotroll]

Something I am not tracking is the repeated assertion that after J2 is achieved, nobody needs J1 EHJ anymore. And yet, with J6, we still have many J1 boats floating about. Just doesnt make sense to me that a useful something would be dropped like a live grenade just because a few ships can now go farther.

Or where the Vilani so compulsive they forced all ships to go to J2 as soon as it was developed?

 

[captainjack23]

Something I am not tracking is the repeated assertion that after J2 is achieved, nobody needs J1 EHJ anymore. And yet, with J6, we still have many J1 boats floating about. Just doesnt make sense to me that a useful something would be dropped like a live grenade just because a few ships can now go farther.

Or where the Vilani so compulsive they forced all ships to go to J2 as soon as it was developed?

Ummmm. Yeah. I've been trying to make that point, in fact. Once there, a mass based J1 jump point is always going to be useful.....plus, it also extends the range of higher jump ships, also......which is also useful.


Vilanii pilot #1 at the spaceship parking lot: "Hey guys ! The new Jump 2 drives are out !"
Other Pilots: "Hot Damn and by Shuglii !" (throw keys into cockpit, lock and slam doors.) "Guess we don't need these junkers anymore anymore !"!


Pilots begin performing the happy-dance-of-proper-diposal-of-outmoded -equiptment.

All pilots: "Yaaaaa HOOOOOO ! Good riddance ! No more jump ones even though it's cheaper ! Especially on a main where having smaller engines and less fuel due to not having unneeded jump capacity would give us a major if unconventional advvantage advantage ! ! " YAY !"

Face over shot of stern imperial governor. "

"Destroy your old ships. At once. It is the only way to even the playing field and preserve order !"

<Fade as hundreds of ships lift off, unmanned, to dive into the sun. >

 

[captainjack23]

Where would these old jump points be? Did they all
go away like the old gas station or is one a converted biker (pirate) hang-
out?

Oh jeeze. Yeah ,Sturgis 1 , now home of the Hells Vargrs. HELL yes !

Did some crazed Kurtz (Apocalypse Now or Heart of Darkness)
make one his personal military sanctuary?

"His methods have become....unsound. Make contact and terminate his command."
[Harrison ford] "terminate....with extreme prejudice."

Of course, this is where those S.C. raiders and M.U. terrorists of my setting
have their secret base -

Southern California and Miskatonic University ? Them's mean !

 

[JimG]

Something I am not tracking is the repeated assertion that after J2 is achieved, nobody needs J1 EHJ anymore. And yet, with J6, we still have many J1 boats floating about. Just doesnt make sense to me that a useful something would be dropped like a live grenade just because a few ships can now go farther.

Or where the Vilani so compulsive they forced all ships to go to J2 as soon as it was developed?

Ummmm. Yeah. I've been trying to make that point, in fact. Once there, a mass based J1 jump point is always going to be useful.....plus, it also extends the range of higher jump ships, also......which is also useful.


Vilanii pilot #1 at the spaceship parking lot: "Hey guys ! The new Jump 2 drives are out !"
Other Pilots: "Hot Damn and by Shuglii !" (throw keys into cockpit, lock and slam doors.) "Guess we don't need these junkers anymore anymore !"!


Pilots begin performing the happy-dance-of-proper-diposal-of-outmoded -equiptment.

All pilots: "Yaaaaa HOOOOOO ! Good riddance ! No more jump ones even though it's cheaper ! Especially on a main where having smaller engines and less fuel due to not having unneeded jump capacity would give us a major if unconventional advvantage advantage ! ! " YAY !"

Face over shot of stern imperial governor. "

"Destroy your old ships. At once. It is the only way to even the playing field and preserve order !"

<Fade as hundreds of ships lift off, unmanned, to dive into the sun. >

If the EHJ results in a 1-in-36 loss rate, they might actually be dropped pretty quickly... if nothing else the pilots willing to risk it will eventually be weeded out by natural selection.

The J1 junkers would continue to be useful and profitable on the mains, but perhaps not worth the risk of EHJ when the new ships with J2 can do it risk free.

 

[rust]

Of course, this is where those S.C. raiders and M.U.
terrorists of my setting have their secret base -

Southern California and Miskatonic University ? Them's mean !

When I began our group's current setting, I was too lazy to design an
entire background universe from scratch, and therefore took one out
of the series of novels of my favourite SF author.

Little did I know at the time that this particular author takes a very, very
[VERY !] dim view of any kind of fan fiction, commercial or not, and at-
tempts to legally nuke any unlicensed use of anything he created. :shock:

And so I abbreviate on public forums whatever I borrowed from his no-
vels ...

 

[captainjack23]

If the EHJ results in a 1-in-36 loss rate, they might actually be dropped pretty quickly... if nothing else the pilots willing to risk it will eventually be weeded out by natural selection.

The J1 junkers would continue to be useful and profitable on the mains, but perhaps not worth the risk of EHJ when the new ships with J2 can do it risk free.

Well, yes, but the above was based on the new mass based jump point issue, too, specifically adding in a new jump point with no penalty, like any other jump poinyt (via finding a dark body or towed asteroid....or something).

I agree that EHJ would be shunned by most except for loons like scouts or high payoff but risky military venures - 3% atrittion entry rate isn't too far from what airborne glider troops used to used to expect - and the British and german paras had similar rates (they jumped without secondaries).

Another -2 Penalty though ? Close to 12% cumulative atrittion ; and using -2 for each hex empty (in and out) gets you almost 24% losses on two jumps through two empty hexes.

 

[JimG]

If the EHJ results in a 1-in-36 loss rate, they might actually be dropped pretty quickly... if nothing else the pilots willing to risk it will eventually be weeded out by natural selection.

The J1 junkers would continue to be useful and profitable on the mains, but perhaps not worth the risk of EHJ when the new ships with J2 can do it risk free.

Well, yes, but the above was based on the new mass based jump point issue, too, specifically adding in a new jump point with no penalty, like any other jump poinyt (via finding a dark body or towed asteroid....or something).

My OTU knowledge is shaky, so I don't know how this would work to solve the issues you working on, but for me - if it's on the map it is a risk-free jump. If it's not on the map, you can still jump there but it's risky.

Or maybe the dark bodies or towed asteroids might provide a less risky jump, but for some reason they have a high maintenance cost. When J1 was the only option, maintaining these points was cost effective, but with J2+ they just were no longer worth the cost... like the lost gas stations and rest areas mentioned earlier in the thread.

 

[RandyT0001]

Now more fuel for the fire, I present a few selected quotes from MegaTravellers Vilani and Vargr by DGP (the "it is but don't mention it as such" canon source).

p.18-19
"The intergrated Vilani economic sphere of our ancestors reached a radius of some 60 parsecs from Vland by the year -6000. Our expeditions had reached three times as far, with ships returning from multi-year voyages to worlds past the blue-white giant star Duusirka (Vega)." (Emphsis mine)

p.19
"This increasing cultural friction triggered the Consolidation Wars in -5400."

"We had an edge in the wars, for the researcher castes had developed the jump-2 drive a few years before, in -5430."

p.20
"About -2400, independent Vargr began pillaging civilized regions of our empire. Between -2400 and -1700, Vargr corsair fleets regularly rounded the Windhorn Rift to raid Vilani worlds." (Emphsis mine)

Contact was made withthe Terrans in -2422.

Here is a pic of the 1st Imperium at it's height. (Little fuzzy at bottom of image.)

 

[AKAramis]

If the EHJ results in a 1-in-36 loss rate, they might actually be dropped pretty quickly... if nothing else the pilots willing to risk it will eventually be weeded out by natural selection.

The J1 junkers would continue to be useful and profitable on the mains, but perhaps not worth the risk of EHJ when the new ships with J2 can do it risk free.

They don't, however, have that loss rate. The only penalty for an EHJ (outside of GTIW) is the use of a second dose of Jfuel, and the extra week, and if using tapes, needing two, calculated just prior to jump (as they last a week with valid calcs). Now, if 2 week PP fuel is the norm (as in MoTrav), that's a sufficiency to preclude normal shipping from so doing using demountables.

On the other hand, if 4 weeks (as in all prior editions) is the norm, you can easily handle a second jump.

On the gripping hand, Vilani have 4 defined cultural imperatives in both CT and MT*:
1) conciliarism
2) traditionalism
3) efficiency
4) Conservatism

(Essentially, they are "Eastern Orthodoxy in Space"... you want to see these principles at work, look at EO theological debates.)

Conciliarism means not doing stuff without extensive discussion, and then accepting the vote at the end as unchangeable. No "revisit it next time", no "Until it changes", just "unless the higher council defines otherwise."

Traditionalism means seeing "How we've always done it" as superior to "how we could do it", and not looking for new ways to do things until it is clear the old way is inferior.

Efficiency: least cost for most gain.

So:

1. Vilani ships should be 2 week LS except for military.
2. goods shipped acorss J2 barriers prior to J2 would likely be shipped via 2 jump 1 tankage vessels with 3 weeks LS
3. J2 doesn't get a "Wham!" change-over. It gets a very slow percolation, starting at the spots where J1 is uncomfortably long: the old calibration points. It's STILL not as cost efficient for non-time-sensitive stuff, as the drives cost 2x as much in space and credits, and burn the same amount of fuel.
4. Tradition and Efficiency mean Risk is the enemy. Concialism means that no one will take the risk, as the whole council is liable, unless it is desperation time or well proven.
5. Conservatism also means they won't experiment until they have to. "If it ain't broke, don't waste time improving it." As in, spending money on speculation is a waste of time.

=====
* There was a JTAS article on the Vilani, and then the Vilani & Vargr); V&V is congruent with the JTAS article, but adds loads of details.

 

[captainjack23]

They don't, however, have that loss rate. The only penalty for an EHJ (outside of GTIW) is the use of a second dose of Jfuel, and the extra week, and if using tapes, needing two, calculated just prior to jump (as they last a week with valid calcs). Now, if 2 week PP fuel is the norm (as in MoTrav), that's a sufficiency to preclude normal shipping from so doing using demountables.

As I enjoy having my cake AND eating it too....and, some would argue, throwing it around, that 1/36 chance is my CT/GTIW derived rules suggestion (-2 for jumping into or out of an empty hex, cumulative), for the MGT jump rules - (roll<1, PROBLEM).

So, they'd have that loss rate, if they cunningly 1. used my rules, and 2. Played MGT.

Just a quick clarification.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

I accidentally crossposted most of this on the "Limits of the First Imperium" thread..

Why not use a TL 12 limit for Empty Hex Jumps. Once a civilization reaches TL 12 it can make EHJs. Thus, once J3 is developed, they also don't need a Calibration Point (except for fuel).

I pick TL 12 because it corresponds with a fundemental understanding of Gravity and microgravity and significantly improves the Power Plants and many other gravitic devices. Seems a natural break point in the technology.

Since every major power and almost every pocket empire within the 1105 era are TL12 or allied to one of the TL12 powers, EHJs are trivial in that era. Also, with J3 capabilities, EHJs are less stategically important and thus would be more easily shared with allies.

Play a game in Milieu Zero or the Interstellar Wars Milieu and maybe it isn't such a trivial thing and many are the adventure seeds that could be had trying to hide/steal the knowledge of EHJs from rivals.

I believe someone else suggested TL12 up-thread.

 

[captainjack23]

Now more fuel for the fire, I present a few selected quotes from MegaTravellers Vilani and Vargr by DGP (the "it is but don't mention it as such" canon source).

p.18-19
"The intergrated Vilani economic sphere of our ancestors reached a radius of some 60 parsecs from Vland by the year -6000. Our expeditions had reached three times as far, with ships returning from multi-year voyages to worlds past the blue-white giant star Duusirka (Vega)." (Emphsis mine)

p.19
"This increasing cultural friction triggered the Consolidation Wars in -5400."

"We had an edge in the wars, for the researcher castes had developed the jump-2 drive a few years before, in -5430."

p.20
"About -2400, independent Vargr began pillaging civilized regions of our empire. Between -2400 and -1700, Vargr corsair fleets regularly rounded the Windhorn Rift to raid Vilani worlds." (Emphsis mine)

Contact was made withthe Terrans in -2422.

Here is a pic of the 1st Imperium at it's height. (Little fuzzy at bottom of image.)

Nah, we burned that already . ...see the "how far can they spread thread; those are the basline dates we (well, I at least, dont know if EDG was that specific or had access to it) used to determine if contact was pre or post J2 development. The short version is, of races they contacted pre J2, at least half required an absolute minimium of one deep space jump (or some equivilent) to get across empty hex barriers; of which most required an absolute minimum of two (genoee, Suerrat ,Bwaps [edit:4 actually for the newts], ) And to be honest, I was only checking the main hominid races....so the non-hominids will likely add more......and probably lots more if they wanted to avoid taking a very long way around some long chains of empty hexes......but's its the vilanii. They are nothing if not methodical.

 

[captainjack23]

I accidentally crossposted most of this on the "Limits of the First Imperium" thread..

Why not use a TL 12 limit for Empty Hex Jumps. Once a civilization reaches TL 12 it can make EHJs. Thus, once J3 is developed, they also don't need a Calibration Point (except for fuel).

I pick TL 12 because it corresponds with a fundemental understanding of Gravity and microgravity and significantly improves the Power Plants and many other gravitic devices. Seems a natural break point in the technology.

Since every major power and almost every pocket empire within the 1105 era are TL12 or allied to one of the TL12 powers, EHJs are trivial in that era. Also, with J3 capabilities, EHJs are less stategically important and thus would be more easily shared with allies.

Play a game in Milieu Zero or the Interstellar Wars Milieu and maybe it isn't such a trivial thing and many are the adventure seeds that could be had trying to hide/steal the knowledge of EHJs from rivals.

I believe someone else suggested TL12 up-thread.

That might have been me.

Tl 12 works only if you can explain the Vilanii discoveries and contacts that would have to cross empty hexes. Honestly, consider the staggered TL approach I suggested: J1 at TL9 (no problems) ; EHJ1 at tech 10 (gets Terrans away from Sol, allows adventurous crossing of EJH barriers in Vilanii space); J2 at TL11 -IW period, no EHJ2 capacity, and, as suggested, EHJ-2 at 12.

Actually, I'd suggest that by J3 EHJ technology/math has been folded into Jump development - So they effectively solve for EHJ2 and EHJ3. Explaination: they find the old extension to J1 won't work on J2, so they have to go back and develop a new one.....thereafter, they develop EHJ math/tech whatever in parallel with the next level Jump tech/math/whatever .

 

[EDG]

The OTU is an evolution of the Imperium/Dark Nebula settings... but the differences (like the speed limit of 3.26C without jumping) make it scream "Not the OTU". Especially since it doesn't match the details of the universe. Examine the maps in imperium and either Supp10, AM6, or Atlas of the Imperium. NOT the same. And further, many of these are J2 links (2pc). Plus Tankers can refuel from stars in Imperium.

GTIW is the Imperium/Dark Nebula universe done with GURPS Rules: which doesn't make them the OTU. The OTU has a parallel, very similar set of wars, but since the astrography is more difference than 3000 years of travel can account for (Well, Barnards would be a LY closer by then)... the ISW of Imperium are not the Nth Interstellar wars of the OTU, even tho' they are curiously close.

So... you're really just picking and choosing what you consider to be canon, aren't you. But then it's normal for Traveller canon to be contradictory anyway - care to tell me when the Terrans actually discovered Jump-1 (so far we have three different dates for that)?

Since you seem to so keen on what Marc declares is canon or not, has he ever declared that Imperium isn't canon?

 

[AKAramis]

The OTU is an evolution of the Imperium/Dark Nebula settings... but the differences (like the speed limit of 3.26C without jumping) make it scream "Not the OTU". Especially since it doesn't match the details of the universe. Examine the maps in imperium and either Supp10, AM6, or Atlas of the Imperium. NOT the same. And further, many of these are J2 links (2pc). Plus Tankers can refuel from stars in Imperium.

GTIW is the Imperium/Dark Nebula universe done with GURPS Rules: which doesn't make them the OTU. The OTU has a parallel, very similar set of wars, but since the astrography is more difference than 3000 years of travel can account for (Well, Barnards would be a LY closer by then)... the ISW of Imperium are not the Nth Interstellar wars of the OTU, even tho' they are curiously close.

So... you're really just picking and choosing what you consider to be canon, aren't you. But then it's normal for Traveller canon to be contradictory anyway - care to tell me when the Terrans actually discovered Jump-1 (so far we have three different dates for that)?

Since you seem to so keen on what Marc declares is canon or not, has he ever declared that Imperium isn't canon?

Put the maps side by side.
Now, are they even close? (accounting for the difference in scale.)

 

[EDG]

Put the maps side by side.
Now, are they even close? (accounting for the difference in scale.)

You didn't answer the question - are you deciding yourself what is or what isn't canon, or are you basing it on an official statement by Marc Miller?

Because it seems to me you're doing the former. You declared that that GT:IW is an alternate universe when Marc Miller has not said that it is (Third Imperium GT is NOT the same as GT:IW. GT:IW is set way before the divergence point from the OTU). And now you are declaring that Imperium is not canon but other things are, even though Marc Miller had a hand in all of them.

How similar things are to other publications isn't the issue (it's not like canon is consistent anyway, whether the difference is big or small). So answer the question - has he or has he not declared (a) GT:Interstellar Wars specifically to be non-canon and (b) Imperium to be non-canon?

 

[captainjack23]

.....oh my poor, poor thread.........*****SOB******