Jump torps - why not?

[atpollard]

It would seem to me that Jump Torpedoes would render the Commumications Branch of the IISS unnecessary.
No more X-Boats.
No more X-boat Tenders.
No more 'routes'.

Multiple Jump Torpedos arrive in an inhabited system with a starport and broadcasts thier data. A small craft intercepts and recovers the Jump Torps for refurbishment and reuse. The SPA launches it's own Jump Torpedos to all adjacent systems with a starport.

No people involved, just a web of automated missiles.
IMHO the OTU would be a little poorer for the change.

 

[rust]

It would seem to me that Jump Torpedoes would render the Commumications Branch of the IISS unnecessary.
No more X-Boats.
No more X-boat Tenders.
No more 'routes'.

Not necessarily. For example, in my setting the message drones are ex-
tremely expensive and not reusable - one basically has to throw away
both a jump drive and a computer each time one uses a message drone.

While my setting does not use X-Boats, a manned X-Boat Network would
be much cheaper than any routine use of message drones.

Besides, those drones are really dumb. They do not care whether they
deliver their data to one side or the other - the guy with the right trans-
ponder signal gets the data ...

 

[EDG]

+ Unemployed Player Characters

I don't buy that at all. Just because it can be automated doesn't mean it necessarily will be - plus given the state of AI in the OTU it'd always be better to have a crew on the ship to respond to any problems.

+ To much communication

I think you're assuming that you can fit any size of jump drive to a J-torp, but what if you can only fit J1 or J2? And is it really that important that there's "too much communication"? It still takes a week for messages to travel either way. And j-torps might still only be sent on certain routes anyway (plus, you can't send much in the way of actual packages).

Dropping the crew components from a drone X-boat could just as easily mean that you can add more cargo to ship along with it. Fitting a J5 drive instead of a J4 (I think that's default on an X-boat?) isn't really going to be a great advantage since pretty much every system is within J4 of another anyway.

+ No more valiant couriers

I disagree. A jump torp is no guarantee of delivery (neither is it a guarantee of delivery to the right people) - but if you need to get a message from A to B the best and most secure way to do it would still be using people.

+ X-Wing Raids

True, but you still have the problem of people sitting in a fighter for a whole week doing nothing, and then having limited range when they arrive in a system.

+ Jumping super weapons

Again, I think you're assuming that AI is smarter than it actually is in the OTU.

+ MultiStageMissiles

Not if the J-drive makes the missile prohibitively large. If to have a multistage jump-capable missile you need it to be 100dt anwyay, then what's the point?

A big problem with ALL SciFi settings is using to much technology. If you take todays tech and apply it to 2300AD, StarTrek or Traveller you get a realistic but extremly BOOORING universe. Instead of brash fighter pilots turning lawyer and flirting with the cute Marine you get overweight Otakus sitting on the remote consoles of the drone spread they are guiding, chatting about the cute Marine. Oh wait, that Marine isn't there either. It has been replaced by a combat drone (Traveller canon: Used back in the ISW era by the Terrans). Instead of the engineer crawling down the Jeffries tube - send a drohne. No more getting physical access to the records - the Hacker will instruct his computer to do it...

So limit the technology. A small jump drive isn't going to mean the end of piloted space travel, and an automated drone certainly isn't either. It may be prohibitively expensive or experimental too.

 

[Klaus Kipling]

Thing is, without jump torps we lose that perennial plot hook, the mysterious distress message from a neighbouring star system (even more fun if that system is a red zone, or, even an empty hex! :twisted: ).

Jump torps are not game or setting breakers if you apply certain caveats, some of which have already been mentioned.

• 
  They are very expensive one use affairs; not cheap enough to be 'disposable' or routine in use, probably only used in dire emergencies. Maybe they are recoverable for refurbishment - another good plot hook...
  
  They are not reliable; there's a significant (20%+) chance it will not make it. This can apply to any sub-100dTon vessel.
  
  Limited range; if even the most advanced, most expensive, can't go past J3, the X-Boat is safe.
  
  Automation: don't need it, so we're safe from AI, because they use jump tapes, which are canonical.

They become the equivalent of technologies we have today, but are not in general use because of issues, economics, habit, perceived obsolescence , or downsides with their deployment, like jet-packs, airships, betamax videos / HD-DVD, Morse Code, MetalStorm handguns, gyrocopters, Segways, Concorde, or TV-on-your-teeny-screened-mobile-phone.

 

[far-trader]

Thing is, without jump torps we lose that perennial plot hook, the mysterious distress message from a neighbouring star system (even more fun if that system is a red zone, or, even an empty hex! :twisted: ).

Why? Can't it be a 3 year and change old (or more) radio message full of static to make the actual message cryptic? Isn't that even more mysterious? Just because you don't have jump torps doesn't mean you lose this plot hook.

 

[Klaus Kipling]

Thing is, without jump torps we lose that perennial plot hook, the mysterious distress message from a neighbouring star system (even more fun if that system is a red zone, or, even an empty hex! :twisted: ).

Why? Can't it be a 3 year and change old (or more) radio message full of static to make the actual message cryptic? Isn't that even more mysterious? Just because you don't have jump torps doesn't mean you lose this plot hook.

That's true, I didn't consider that. But little chance of survivors after 3 years.

 

[Baron Sidur Haski]

OTU wise, I think it is hitting on the Warbots/Shushidam Accords bit. A weapon system like that would be self deploying and self targeting, which may go against Articles of War. It would be a War bot.

In a non otu setting, why not? There are many cool examples of the tech. It would be a lot of money to sink into a bomb tho. Probably would need a very specialized reason for deployment.

 

[far-trader]

...

They are very expensive one use affairs; not cheap enough to be 'disposable' or routine in use, probably only used in dire emergencies. Maybe they are recoverable for refurbishment - another good plot hook...

If they are that expensive they are extremely unlikely to be used or useful to PCs.

They are not reliable; there's a significant (20%+) chance it will not make it. This can apply to any sub-100dTon vessel.

And if they are that unreliable again it's not likely the PCs will have them, or that anyone else will find them of much value.

Limited range; if even the most advanced, most expensive, can't go past J3, the X-Boat is safe.

Another limitation that will rule them out as useful for most of the proposed ideas.

Automation: don't need it, so we're safe from AI, because they use jump tapes, which are canonical.

How does them using jump cassettes eliminate the need for automation? Or do you presume that jumping involves nothing more than push the button and wait a week? A bit simplistic to justify that Navigator's salary I think

 

[Klaus Kipling]

If they are that expensive they are extremely unlikely to be used or useful to PCs.

And if they are that unreliable again it's not likely the PCs will have them, or that anyone else will find them of much value.

Another limitation that will rule them out as useful for most of the proposed ideas.

I dunno, having one to use as a last resort if you're in distress in an uninhabited system could be quite useful. I can see scout ships and naval vessels having one or two 'just in case'. In fact a deep scout exploratory mission might leave them along it's path, jump tapes ready, system by system, so they can daisy chain a message back if their jump drive fails.

How does them using jump cassettes eliminate the need for automation? Or do you presume that jumping involves nothing more than push the button and wait a week? A bit simplistic to justify that Navigator's salary I think

Automation in terms of OTU-breaking AI. In this case I'd imagine a downed ship's astrogator plotting a jump and recording it to 'tape', then setting off the torpedo and crossing his fingers. He still gets to earn his salary.

 

[Ommadawn]

All this talk of Jump Torpedos reminds me of the good old courier drones from Starfire... ahh, memories.. I loved that game.

Anyway! I can see where the use of jump torpedos would be interesting and entirely plausible. It just wouldn't be the OTU. If that's what you like and want in your ATU, go for it!

 

[Klaus Kipling]

It just wouldn't be the OTU.

Hard to justify that. The 'OTU' is more of a style/flavour than specifics. They exist in my OTU, they don't in yours. We can both come up with entirely reasonable arguments why our slant is so, I'm sure.

The only real arbiter in what is the OTU is the published canon. Leviathan says they exist, so they must exist in the OTU. They're also mentioned in T20. Not in common use, perhaps, but still available. Makes sense for a vessel like the Leviathan to carry them, given its mission. Not so much sense for a Type-A. And it makes the OTU a bit more flexible for when the ref needs it to be.

So that's mine.

 

[Klaus Kipling]

If they are that expensive they are extremely unlikely to be used or useful to PCs.

So is battle dress and the FGMP.

 

[Ommadawn]

It just wouldn't be the OTU.

Hard to justify that. The 'OTU' is more of a style/flavour than specifics. They exist in my OTU, they don't in yours. We can both come up with entirely reasonable arguments why our slant is so, I'm sure.

The only real arbiter in what is the OTU is the published canon. Leviathan says they exist, so they must exist in the OTU. They're also mentioned in T20. Not in common use, perhaps, but still available. Makes sense for a vessel like the Leviathan to carry them, given its mission. Not so much sense for a Type-A. And it makes the OTU a bit more flexible for when the ref needs it to be.

So that's mine.

Leviathan is the only GW product that ever mentioned them, and MWM has been quoted as saying they were a mistake that crept in when Leviathan was written by GW-UK and was never corrected.

Jumps torpedos as written in Leviathan would make the entire express boat network redundant and breaks a linchpin of the OTU.

Don't get me wrong, I think jump torpedos are an interesting addition to any referee's game but they still don't belong in the OTU.

 

[far-trader]

If they are that expensive they are extremely unlikely to be used or useful to PCs.

So is battle dress and the FGMP.

It's a bad comparison as BD is available only to serving military (at least that's heavily implied where not explicitly stated)* or on the black market. It's not something in every tramp trader's locker as some think this would be. Further it's not MCr and it's eminently more useful and durable than a one shot, iffy chance, limited range "sos" beacon.

* unless Mongoose has seen fit to make BD widely available to any PC that wants one. Maybe even with a tiny downpayment and easy loan plan Hmm, let's see, where can I get some money quick for the next payment wearing a suit of BD, oh yeah, anywhere I please :roll: :twisted: Or... everybody and their dog is wearing it, oh joy :shock:

Now if these jump beacons had a useful range (6 parsecs at a minimum), in a small size (standard missile or maybe half a ton), and were cheap enough to be considered indispensable as safety gear (say KCr1), and reliable enough to be counted on in a crunch (always work if not abused), then yes, they'd be handy.* So handy you'd have to impose some severe restrictions on what makes them work to allow them in the OTU without changing things dramatically. Mike (I think) was (maybe) digging at me about my old Jump BD earlier somewhere for one example of an application. It doesn't take much imagination to come up with others. For another example, what would happen if you set one off on a planetary surface? Bet that'd be a big bada-boom.

* IF you're crazy enough to expect to make misjumps. OK, so the LBB1-3 OTU does seem to expect Free-Traders to be stupid enough to routinely risk misjumps. There's no excuse post LBB5 for that to be. Heck I don't even allow it under LBB1-3. You lose your license and ship if you try anything so stupid without a really solid reason. What is the Mongoose take on misjumps? Do they happen only if you take stupid risks? Or are they a chance even when operating safely?

 

[Klaus Kipling]

It's not something in every tramp trader's locker as some think this would be.

Never said it would. Scouts and the military would find them useful, new under-equipped colonies like have been already mentioned, deep space space explorers, and eccentric belters.

Escape pods cost 100Kcr, and even an unreliable jump torpedo has to be worth as much as one of them if you have an emergency 'off piste' as it were.

And there's a worse than 20% 'failure' (ie: chance of death) rate for low berths, yet they are used routinely on living people.

Even if it had only a 50/50 chance of working, it would still be worth carrying one along. Not trustworthy enough to be in general use, but you'd be glad for it if you were desperate.

If they're not in general use then they're going to be hard to find, rare for pc craft, but a great mcguffin for a ref.

 

[Jeff Hopper]

What we really need are pirates firing near-C J-Torps out of an empty hex. :twisted:

No doubt the pirates are female Aslan wearing comfortable shoes.

 

[rust]

After all with Aslan the Female is the SMART part of the species

With almost all species except the Kzin, I think.

 

[aspqrz]

OTU wise, I think it is hitting on the Warbots/Shushidam Accords bit. A weapon system like that would be self deploying and self targeting, which may go against Articles of War. It would be a War bot.

In a non otu setting, why not? There are many cool examples of the tech. It would be a lot of money to sink into a bomb tho. Probably would need a very specialized reason for deployment.

I always thought those accords fundamentally ... incredible ... completely downright unbelievable.

In the same way that Nukes, here and now, are losers weapons ... it only makes sense to use them when you think you're about to lose otherwise, simply because they are far too destructive for rational deployment in any other situation.

Or like the Japs in WW2 ... they had to attack the Seppos* at PH in order to ensure their attack on the NEI would be unmolested by Seppo forces in the PI (more importantly, ensuring all the oil they hoped to get wouldn't be stopped by said Seppos).

Someone, somewhere, is going to use them if they're any good at all. And if they're any good at all, then they're going to give them an advantage. And this might be a war winner.

[Actually, that said, I don't see it would be. Combat AIs would be far too expensive than human soldiers ... after all, the latter are easily produced in unspecialised facilities (anywhere!) by unskilled labour using minimal resources (most of which are free or extremely cheap) while the warbots require specialised, high tech, factories and lots and lots of expensive resources. And, in any case, I don't really believe that we'll ever achieve an AI, let alone one equal to a human brain ... really clever expert systems, yeah, but they won't be as versatile as a human brain, either. YMMV, of course! )

And that's just the humans. Aliens? Well, we know Grandfather made extensive use of them in the Final War against his Grandchildren ... and what's to say some ravening horde of Berserkers aren't out there ... somewhere ... just beyond Imperial (or Known Space) borders?

Phil

* Seppos = Septic Tanks. I'm sure the Brits will figure it out :lol:

 

[rust]

I always thought those accords fundamentally ... incredible ... completely downright unbelievable.

Yep. According to Book 8, Aslan, Hivers, Solomani and Zhodani use
warbots, and a number of minor races probably does so, too.

In my non-OTU setting warbots are rare and used almost only in hos-
tile environments where the proper equipment for a human soldier
would be almost as expensive as a warbot.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

Well considering Vilani early history, I am not surprised that those accords were put in place. That is probably part of the compromises made to bring the Vilani into the growing 3I.