Jump Precisions

[swordtart]

I'm confused. How does that contradict anything I said?

My statement was that Skill 1 is experienced individual competent to handle all normal tasks for their position without needing a supervisory person watching over them. Someone with proper training and some years of work experience. Skill 3 is a very experienced person with lots of training and time on the job. It is far more than is necessary to do normal shipboard jobs. Your "doctor" has 12-16 years of job behind him.

You don't need a PhD in astrophysics plus 4-8 years in a astronomy lab to move a free trader to the next star system. A character at Skill 1 has had significant training and on the job experience. They aren't noobs. Skill 0 is "I finished my classes but I don't have any experience, someone better keep an eye on me."

Just to stick with the medical field.. EMTs have professional certifications to practice. RNs have professional certifications to practice. They are professionals. They are good at their jobs. They don't need someone watching them when they do that job. And a paramedic doesn't fail on 40% of his average tasks either, no matter what Mongoose says.

And your own quote agrees with me. Medic 1 is enough to be certified as a ship's Medic and be qualified to do the job.

A level 1 Medic will be quite capable of dealing with trivial medical problems without making them worse e.g. a nose bleed. They will be aware of when a headache can be treated with pain killers or is a symptom of concussion (easy task). They capable of using a Medi kit and identifying the correct broad spectrum drugs to treat routine ailments and perform simple surgical operations (treating the symptoms of space flu or suturing non-life threatening wounds etc). This will cover 99% of occurrences on a ship and will be well within the capability of a ships medic as most passengers just need a kind word and re-assurance, and in any case if the situation doesn't improve none are life threatening and they can have another attempt without undermining their credibility. Since there is no serious consequence of failure you probably won't even roll for them whereas an unskilled person might actually make it worse.

In more serious cases (average tasks and above) when you may not get a second chance or the patient might deteriorate they will at least recognise that the case is more serious and properly research the solution. They will stabilise the patient and spend some time consulting books (or the database that is part of the expert software) comparing the symptoms to situations that they may not have heard of, let alone personally experienced. They will use the best medic kit on the ship rather than their belt kit (or use the auto doc if there is one). They may also need to take more time to conduct research into the treatment that a qualified Doctor with Medic-3 might just know (as they have a wider range of expereince).

If the situation is very bad and they loose the patient after doing their best that they can in any malpractice suit they will be exonerated (presuming they did not cause the situation) as sometimes people die from life threatening causes. If on the other hand the medic didn't bother to consult any medical text or database and didn't conduct extensive research before treatment then they will be censured.

If you mean the definition of professional is someone sufficiently skilled to be paid to do a job, it means different things in different jobs. A medical Professional in my experience is a General Practitioner they will still call on Consultants. A paramedic is also a professional but they are not classed as being in one of the Professions and their job is to get people to a hospital where they can see a doctor. A consultant is also a professional but is deemed more skillful than a GP. The word "professional" doesn't tell us anything as you can be a professional cleaner with no formal qualifications. As for professional footballers... "yeah, sick as a parrot Terry".

In the UK at least a "Professional" person does have a specific meaning and usually required a university level education in that field (though some fields allow other specialist training directly under the authority of a professional body that acts to regulate the profession). Your qualification was a Batchelors degree (i.e. you had to graduate not just attend at university). Recognition as a practicing professional (vs. an academic) is through professional registration which can be at various levels (in my profession you can be Engineering Technician, Incorporated Engineer or Chartered Engineer. Each requires a specific level of education, training and experience and after registration they grant the right to use internationally recognised letters after your name (EngTech, IEng or CEng). The organisation also recognises that students and as yet uncertified engineers are In the profession but are not yet a Professional and provide support to registration and access to specialist training. If an individual has extensive experience but lacks formal qualification there are other routes to registration but they will need to show that have equivalent knowledge that they are capable of obtaining the qualification.

I was using the above criteria for what I considered to be the appropriate level of certification. If you disagree there is little point discussing it further as we have presented out evidence and are now just comparing opinions. Ditto if you think the MGT2 skill system is bust, you are free to prefer another version of the rules or play another game. That does not make me wrong for holding a different view. Only if I have misquoted a rule can I be wrong as that is a matter of fact not opinion.

 

[PeterDebney]

The issue I had with the MGT2 Core Rulebook version of jump is that the Astrogation skill is pretty much useless. If you fail the skill check you can just have another go. How do you work out you failed to plot correctly?

I wonder: how about not allowing the characters to know that they failed the roll, but discover too late when they emerge somewhere else…?

 

[PeterDebney]

Planets closer to their primaries orbit faster. The Earth goes about 100,000kph, so it could be up to 600000km away from where you thought it would be. Since it it 12000km in diameter the 100D sphere is 1.2 million KM radius, so you'll be fine. However, if there were a smaller planet in Earth's orbit - anything less than 6000 KM in diameter - you could miss, just because of the randomness of jump precipitation. Oops.

Yep, in the case of the Earth a 4 hour variation in time is a 34D variation in distance.
And planets in higher orbits will be travelling faster.

 

[swordtart]

I think this could fit a lot of subjects in Traveller. Way too much time and effort is spent trying to make game rules match real world understanding and personal opinions. Sometimes it seems best to "not to look at too closely".

Yep, ignore the fluff and just look at the probabilities. If they seem to make the game work how you want it to describe it your own way.

I wonder: how about not allowing the characters to know that they failed the roll, but discover too late when they emerge somewhere else…

That only works if there is a mechanism to emerge somewhere else. The companion provides that mechanism and if you use that the problem goes away (or introduses other problems depending on your opinion of how it should all work).

But there is definitely a case for saying that the level of competence to do a task is the same level of competence required to evaluate if you have the right level of competence. Or put more crudely Stupid people are too stupid to realise just how stupid they are. Without a second opinion (like say an expert package) mistakes would go undetected. You could run the calculations a few times to check you get the same result, but that will only help if you have had a brain fart. If it is an error of understanding then you'll keep getting the same wrong answer.

 

[swordtart]

That's because Mongoose has borked their task system. Those task values are supposed to be for an average task in a highly dramatic situation. It is not meant to be an average task for just doing what the job is. There shouldn't even BE a roll to do the equivalent of crossing the street in your starship.

And yet people have fender benders in car parks all the time despite having years of familiarity and having to study and pass a test to become a licensed driver. It is not all about whether you have a skill, it is whether you can apply that skill effectively in a specific circumstance.

Jump 2 in a far trader is the definition of what the ship does for a living, week in and week out. Making it that difficult and then stacking on further complexities after that is bad design. I showed in the opening post that none of this was true before MgT2e.

And it would be fine to pump up the numbers IF they changed character generation to reflect that. But they didn't. Characters have basically the same skill totals as they did in earlier editions of the game where the task difficulties were not this inflated.

Not all of the previous editions said how long a task should take or in many cases even said what the difficulty of a particular task should be. Classic traveller at least was full of vague descriptions of skills and left it up to the referee to decide the target number or what modifiers to apply. Other editions have skill bloat or skill mechanics that are not directly comparable or seem more focussed on their setting change than the rules to play in that setting (TNE is very divergent).

MGT2 (and other editions) gives suggested times for tasks and allows you to flex and make it easier or harder. MGT2 also introduced other skill modifiers and rules that change the effective skill of characters (e.g. Boon and Bane).

 

[MaxTac Transfer]

I hear what you're saying but disagree. The statements are clear about the line where a professional is. Like I said, I see skill level 1 is a baby professional and needs seasoning. The book is clear that skill level one is trained with a few years of experience. They can likely do the work but fall short of being a skilled professional.

Others are free to do as they like. I'm not arguing for the sake of it. Just putting out one man's opinion.

Trained with a few years of experience in a craftsman is someone who can apply for master training in any system that runs on formalised education/training.

Germany:

3 year apprenticeship and a test => Geselle (Journeyman). They can do their job with little to no supervision. Ie the guy who did all my lamps ten years ago was a Geselle and they still work fine

3 years as a Geselle and an exam => Meister (Master craftsman), equal to EQR grade 6 (or 8). Can train apprentices or run a shop

Yes, most masters have a few more years under the belt but the law says "a few years experience" are enough.

 

[MonsterX]

Yep, in the case of the Earth a 4 hour variation in time is a 34D variation in distance.
And planets in higher orbits will be travelling faster.

Actually, the closer the orbit, the faster the planet travels in its orbit.

 

[Condottiere]

1. Since I am screwing around with defining and terming CAVALRY slots, I do think journeyman kinda appropriate for some tier of astrogator.

2. Skill factor zero tends to leave the skillee with enough applicable knowledge to perform a task, but not enough to be good at it.

3. I don't know how many hours of class, homework, and practice, that would take.

4. If Medical/two is qualifiable enough to be a (medical) doctor, then we do have a solid lifeline we can cling to.

5. As mentioned above, the average time required to become a doctor is around 11 to 12 years. If most prospective MDs begin medical school at 18, they will be around 30 when they begin practicing independently, although taking a gap year or a longer residency can prolong this process.

6. Not being a medical professional, I'm going to assume that's true.

7. However, I'm going to guess that when a medical student graduates and interns at a hospital, he's at medical factor two.

8. With thirty, you're supposed to be at medical/three.

9. Plus all the necessary auxiliary skills, picked up along the way, like Bedside Manner/zero.

 

[Sigtrygg]

You miss my point. When you jump, you jump to where your target planet will be in one week. But it won't be one week exactly. The target gravity well is moving through space, and so you will miss it by the distance the object traveled in the difference between your prediction of your arrival time, and the actual arrival time. Meaning, depending on the size of the gravity well, and the speed it is moving at, you could miss it and NOT emerge at 100D from the objective. This doesn't have to do with jump difficulty for targeting empty space, because 1) you are not targeting empty space, but rather a gravity well, and 2) it is not something that better astrogation skill can help with. It is a by-product of jumps lasting a variable length of time.

I really hoped I would not have to make this post because it makes my head hurt
What you have discovered is the single most contradictory thing about the whole jump time is randomised vs accurate to within whatever, 3000km was it?
For the sake of argument let's go back to a straightforward jump from point A to point B, both being the 100D boundaries of planets.

Is point B a location in space or a location in spacetime?

Does the jump duration depend on the local properties of spacetime at A and B and all possible real spacetime points between A and B for the duration of the jump?

Is the time in jump known to the crew before they jump - is it part of the jump plot. If so then this is factored in and they arrive at point B accurate to within 3000 km and the jump took them 1 week give or take.

Or is the time in jump unknown to the crew, it is metagame info.

If the latter then you can not jump to within 3000 km of the 100D of point B, for the simple reason that the planet that was supposed to be at point B is not there. Which means your jump plot is wrong, which means you shouldn't have been able to jump in the first place since your destination is no longer a known variable, which means you could risk a misjump...

The more complex the explanation the greater the inconsistency and contradiction.

 

[swordtart]

I really hoped I would not have to make this post.
What you have discovered is the single most contradictory thing about the whole jump time is randomised vs accurate to within whatever, 3000km was it?
For the sake of argument let's go back to a straightforward jump from point A to point B, both being the 100D boundaries of planets.

Is point B a location in space or a location in spacetime?

Does the jump duration depend on the local properties of spacetime at A and B and all possible real spacetime points between A and B for the duration of the jump?

Is the time in jump known to the crew before they jump - is it part of the jump plot. if so then this is factored in and they arrive at point B accurate to within 3000 km and the jump took them 1 week give or take.

Or is the time in jump unknown to the crew, it is metagame info.

If the latter then you can not jump to within 3000 km of the 100D of point B, for the simple reason that the planet that was supposed to be at point B is not there. Which means your jump plot is wrong, which means you shouldn't have been able to jump in the first place since your destination is no longer a known variable, which means you could risk a misjump...

The more complex the explanation the greater the inconsistency and contradiction.

I agree that it is best not to explain. Thinking you have an explanation tends to lead you to infer other things and that way lies madness

Let the rules guide you and don't stress too much on what implications that has beyond the implications explicitly stated in those rules.

 

[Condottiere]

Time seems to be the unpredictable variable.

Engineering appears to be predictable, so much energy applied to get so much volume from point alpha to point beta.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Here's something to think about.

You have to plot where point B will be in one weeks time.

If you do not know the exact duration of your jump when you plot it then you have no clue what is at your destination.

Is it possible that the jump drive actually moves you through "now" and the duration is purely a construct experienced by the crew.

What if the jump is actually instantaneous in the "now" since if you are travelling at c time is reduced to 0?

A consequence of this is that nothing has moved while you experience a week +/- so galactic cluster velocity, galactic velocity, system velocity, planet velocity is all 0. The time is then experienced as you are squeezed out of jump space at B.

The jump is instant in the now, the tranition upon arrival takes one week, during which you are now coupled to location B.

 

[Condottiere]

From what's implied, engineering is precise, all other things being equal.

Circular error probable, or spherical, in our case, could be measured in thousands of kilometres.

However, since the universe is in motion, and we'll assume that our velocity within jumpsace is constant, when exactly the starship exits determines exact distance traversed.

 

[Anstett]

I think this could fit a lot of subjects in Traveller. Way too much time and effort is spent trying to make game rules match real world understanding and personal opinions. Sometimes it seems best to "not to look at too closely".

Fully agree.
It is much more important to be internally consistent with how the mechanics work than the precise why they work.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Phew, glad they put all that effort into making the mechanics consistent...
all the rules that are mutually complementary never contradictory...
and everything clearly explained and easy to find...

 

[MonsterX]

I really hoped I would not have to make this post because it makes my head hurt
What you have discovered is the single most contradictory thing about the whole jump time is randomised vs accurate to within whatever, 3000km was it?
For the sake of argument let's go back to a straightforward jump from point A to point B, both being the 100D boundaries of planets.

Is point B a location in space or a location in spacetime?

Does the jump duration depend on the local properties of spacetime at A and B and all possible real spacetime points between A and B for the duration of the jump?

Is the time in jump known to the crew before they jump - is it part of the jump plot. If so then this is factored in and they arrive at point B accurate to within 3000 km and the jump took them 1 week give or take.

Or is the time in jump unknown to the crew, it is metagame info.

If the latter then you can not jump to within 3000 km of the 100D of point B, for the simple reason that the planet that was supposed to be at point B is not there. Which means your jump plot is wrong, which means you shouldn't have been able to jump in the first place since your destination is no longer a known variable, which means you could risk a misjump...

The more complex the explanation the greater the inconsistency and contradiction.

This is one of those things that reveals the realism behind the Sanity mechanic in Call of Cthulhu. The more you understand about the underlying structure of the reality in which you live, the less mentally stable you become. Lose 1d6 Sanity points! (I feel like I need some company in the sanitarium. It's why I posted)

 

[-Daniel-]

Phew, glad they put all that effort into making the mechanics consistent...
all the rules that are mutually complementary never contradictory...
and everything clearly explained and easy to find...

I don't think anyone is saying they did, I think desire is they should do so. We know that even if you reduce the conversation to just a single edition of the rules, the various authors failed to work together for internal consistency.

 

[swordtart]

Of course since you are moving in J-Space you only need to connect your departure point in J-Space with the Arrival point in J-Space. All real space coordinates in J-Space are congruent and thus you only need to unfold along the time axis. That is why it the time taken doesn't affect the locational coordinates.

I think that clears it up

 

[Condottiere]

It seems to follow Einsteinian time.

Experienced versus realtime.

How much time your starship experiences within jump space, doesn't need to correlate with how much time has passed in your originating dimension.

 

[swordtart]

It seems to follow Einsteinian time.

Experienced versus realtime.

How much time your starship experiences within jump space, doesn't need to correlate with how much time has passed in your originating dimension.

The trouble is you are actually arriving at a different time in the real universe. If you arrived after a week but you had experienced the variable time it would be easier (since that planet is actually where it should be).