Jump points

[Sulfurdown]

The rules for JPB are actually nothing like the show.

- In the show, there is no scout "on the table". Just a lone Minbari Flyer.
- The JP bomb can only be performed in a specific pre-determined location, that is why the Flyer had to lure them there.
- It had to be done in an asteroid field so that the EA couldn't simply move out of the way when they detected the JP forming.
- The JP opened and (I believe?) completely destroyed a Nova and a Hyperion, and badly damaged another Hyperion. That is far more damage than in ACTA, or else it is extremely lucky crit rolling!!
- It was only ever performed by the Black Star, the most elite of the elite Minbari crews. If every ship with AJE could do it, why wasn't it much more common in the show?

I disagree.

The flyer may have been all that the EA fleet saw, but the stealth systems on minbari scout ships are described as being better than those on a Sharlin (which were more than enough to render EA's tracking systesm usless). The flyer may simply have been bait, not a spotter. Alternatively they could have been using a different tactic than the traditional JPB (see below for more description).

As for the pre determied location, i'll give you some credit there, but i believe the CQ check is ment to give it the same feal, even if it's not technically the same. Alternatively, the pre determined location could have been beauce they didn't have a scout on hand. So since they couldn't figure out exactely where to open the vortex to catch their prey they brought their prey to where they were going to open the vortex.

As for the destructivness, yes but that's in the interst of making a fun game rather than a dramatic scene. some ground has to be given in that regard or the tactic will be to dangerous. again, the feal of the effect is preserved by making JPB's very damaging even if theyr aren't as damaging as they should be based on the show.

as for it having to be done in an asteroid field, there isn't any evedence of that. It WAS done in an asteroid field, but corelation does not causality make. certanly it helps if your target can't manuver easily, but i don't believe there's any indication that the asteroid field was essential to the sucess of the tactic.

As for the black star being the only ship to use it, first of all it required advanced technology, so it's possable that only minbari jump engines were advanced enough to be used as such (thus why other races didn't try it), and the balack star might simply have been the first ship to think of it. Alternatively it could have been a common minbari tactic, but was only used occasionally as it was unessesary in the war with earth, and not fesable against raiders or the shadows (the only other forces the minbary would have fought on a regular basis). I'd also like to point out that the Black star had accuired several kills prior to the fatefull engagment we saw and there is no reason to believe that those attacks weren't executed in a similar manner.


And finally, given the overal portrayal of the rangers, and their use of advanced scouts and the precision of a white star's jump engines when attacking earth. I'd say it's very reasonable to assume that when they have the ability to have a white star or an allied scout in place ahead of the main strike force, they would use JPBs. The reason thsi doesn't hapen often is usually the White Star fleet is primarily a peacekeeping force, so outside of the shadow war, they don't engage in very many ofencive campaignes, and when the do (war with earth) they usually aren't trying to eliminate the enemy, just end their ability to fight (and thus the destructive force of a JPB is taken off the table)

as for the bluestar specifically, i have to believe that it's JPB potential was conciderd when it was created. After all it's flavor text itself cites it's jump engines as the only real asset at it's disposal. I'll agree that there is potental for abuse, but i think the actuall reults of such an attempt would be less effective than it's made out to be (unless the offending player has put enough effort into his tactics to deserve some reward even if they are annoying).

I like the original JPB rules that consist only of the Other Duties-12 for the Minbari. Since that Other Duty IS the scene that's used to say that JPB should be in the game. (Yes that means that only the Minbari could use the JPB, but you know what? I wouldn't mind that even though I never have played Minbari.)

 

[Ripple]

Have to agree, the Other Duty special was an elegant solution.

Similar to skin dancing, we see a Starfury flying so close to the skin of a Vorlon I couldn't call it anything else, but humans don't get that ability. No one is raising Caine over that one, so the same solution would have worked nicely.

Ripple

 

[BADGERCLAW]

but don't ever play off that the bluestar is anything but an excellent patrol ship. Don't like, go play with the Tiraca and tell me how well you do.

Tiraca ?

I never said or meant that the blue stars are not a good ship. They're actually pretty good small ship and that they are patrol level, which gives me the option to get a quite a few. This in turn will help me to not get initiatives synced. But I do agree with you that the blue stars are designed that they can be abused by players. just like some small narn ship with e-mines. I don't mind e-mines I just don't like that small ships can get them. And in turn you can get a lot of small ships w/ e-mines.
it makes the game boring when all your player does is take tons of small ships and e mind you/ or jump point bomb you to death.

I can't see it being fun for either player when these tactics are being abused.

BC 8)

 

[Ripple]

Well we agree on that aspect at least, that any abused tactic that has only 'fleet choice' based answers is not fun.

I am curious which small ships you think the narn has that are abusive. The Ka'Tan does get one shot e-mines. Two raid ships get weapons with the e-mine trait but we don't usually think of those as small locally. The one shot 2 AD e-mine the Ka'Tans come with hasn't been a huge issue here yet, but I can see in some scenarios it being a big deal. (Generally one hit off the mine system, which becomes 1 damage and crew after the AA, but we haven't tried it enough.)

Oh and the Tiraca (Abbai patrol choice) was used as it's a combat ship that while wonderful in numbers often gets blow to pieces before it gets more than on laser shot off. It's slower, less maneuverable, has no die roll based defense (ie a defense that acts against ALL eligible attacks leveled at it), and similar damage out put on average. It is bigger than the blue star but not much when you add in the AA/dodge effects.

Ripple

 

[imagine1]

I witnessed a game last night where an ISA player held three squadrons of 4 bluestars off the table and had each open up a jump gate on his poor Narn opponent. Thats 12 JPB's! Each squadron used the highest CQ which was 6 meaning two thirds of his JPB's worked, 64 AD, triple damage!
This was not remotely difficult for him to do and meant his opponent could not 'play' a strategy against it. 1 set of blue stars did not even come through the gate. The Narn player eventually gave up and felt like never playing again. I was disappointed to see something that appeared so one sided.

I would love to hear peoples thoughts on this. I cannot see how a JPB has been calculated into the blue stars cost, it already one of the best patrol level shipsi n the game without it. Does anyone have any house rules for governing this?

Please let me know your thoughts on how you play with this rule, how you play against it etc.

 

[Burger]

My thoughts are the rule is still broken, just like it was in Nov 2007 when this thread was made

There is nothing you can do against it. Except throw lumps of cheese at your opponent, and refuse to play him if he's going to do it repeatedly.